MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
If both body and soul are destroyed, what part is in an eternal torment?
What is the purpose of Grace?
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No I teach the scriptures
Again----If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1st John 1:8
2nd Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Mt:12:36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mt:5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mt:7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1st John:3:8: The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22-2 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2Pt:2:9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pt:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom:5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom:7:23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
1Cor:15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Gal:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Rom:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The only thing you are good at is tap dancing. Be good and do good. Find scriptures that say that is not true.
Read the story of the Sheep and the Goat and those that did not help others went to Hell.
And answer the question....Of the things I listed what do you think can be omitted and still be saved?
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I have always viewed grace as "God's enabling power" Many confuse grace with mercy when they are two totally different things. I say this , not having watched the video yet. I will try and watch it this weekend.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
This religious speak. And childish. Like...do I have to believe in the trinity to be saved??? Something a little unlearned child might say.
You don't have to believe in the Jesus that saves you for the righteous. You need to obey Him whether you know Him or not. Minimum standard to love others as yourself. Do that and you will inherit life.
All have to repent IF they are not already righteous. The righteous are there to show us how we ought to behave in the world. Believers aren't always paying attention to that.
Baptized in water or the Spirit? Baptized in water represents washing away a sinful life. This is on a repentance from evil and dead works level...aka righteousness. Baptized in the Spirit means embarking on a spiritual life and the race of faith. It is an intro into holiness.
Rituals don't save people. The bread and wine have a deeper significance of eating His flesh and drinking His blood...which represents righteousness and holiness. Eating His flesh is to obey God as a human can. Drinking His blood means partaking of the life of Jesus. Communion is about thanksgiving and commemorates the Passover (the 3rd cup .....of redemption)
This is an opinion not supported in the bible. You are confusing the call on Israel and now the church with the world.
Since I don't get asked very many good questions I thought to bring this over from the closed thread...
I'm going to try teaching deeper truth here at the risk of my pearls getting overcome and trampled by pig's feet in the mud...
Sow in righteousness, reap in mercy (Hos 10:12)
Sow to the Spirit, reap eternal life (Gal 6:8)
These are the two levels of knowing God.
Jesus said, I am the door...
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9
A potential saint goes IN AND OUT of the Spirit...meaning in and out through the door....finding pasture on BOTH sides of the door. When the seeker is not inside the house of God, he should wait patiently at His door. Draw near to Me and I will draw near to you.
There is pasture in God's realm and in ours. Ps 23 says...He makes me to lie down in green pastures. The pastures here are plural.
So whether present or absent from the Lord we do all to be at least accepted of Him. We are to bear fruit where we are and seek God to be where He is. We collect the dew of the morning until He rains His righteousness on us. The dew springs UP from the earth and the rain falls down from heaven.
As we collect the dew of the morning we are washed clean by the washing of the word. So we set off on our day with a peace derived from being forgiven and cleansed from our sin....from there we experience a peace with God. That is until we get involved in the world whereby our feet get dirty. We lose that peace during the day unless we are careful to stay unspotted from the world. Like a man who looks in a mirror and remembers what he looks like and who he is...in the inner man.
So on this level our peace depends on US drawing near to God. We have perfect peace as long as our hearts are stayed on our God.
But as we go through the door who is Christ, there is no need to collect the dew since it's raining righteousness. The peace with God at that level is beyond human understanding.
Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. Prov 8:34
We love Him because He first loved us. But getting that love out of us is not automatic.
I was talking to a woman yesterday who called me asking for advice. She had walked in the Spirit for a few years (10 years ago) and had left the institution because she saw what the churches have become. But she remained alone. She let herself go. So she is now wanting to get close with God again. So she is like a novice believer...but at a secondary school level.. She needs to APPLY herself in seeking God daily and collecting the dew of the morning. She needs to come back to the door and wait there for Her Master. As a servant. So she is praying about it. We can think that God's love is the same as permissiveness. But a slave of Christ is also to be a slave of righteousness. When we are not in the Lord's presence we shouldn't just become master over our own lives.
Anyway...here are a few thoughts this morning as I collect the morning dew. Righteousness springs up out of the earth...and holiness rains down from heaven
“Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. Is 45:8
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hos 10:12
Peace.
Sure...you don't seem to treat that with any reverence.
Again, there are different depths to knowing God. I have been to basically all the depths in my 46 years with the Lord.
I'm going to try teaching deeper truth here at the risk of my pearls getting overcome and trampled by pig's feet in the mud...
Sow in righteousness, reap in mercy (Hos 10:12)
Sow to the Spirit, reap eternal life (Gal 6:8)
These are the two levels of knowing God.
Jesus said, I am the door...
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9
A potential saint goes IN AND OUT of the Spirit...meaning in and out through the door....finding pasture on BOTH sides of the door. When the seeker is not inside the house of God, he should wait patiently at His door. Draw near to Me and I will draw near to you.
There is pasture in God's realm and in ours. Ps 23 says...He makes me to lie down in green pastures. The pastures here are plural.
So whether present or absent from the Lord we do all to be at least accepted of Him. We are to bear fruit where we are and seek God to be where He is. We collect the dew of the morning until He rains His righteousness on us. The dew springs UP from the earth and the rain falls down from heaven.
As we collect the dew of the morning we are washed clean by the washing of the word. So we set off on our day with a peace derived from being forgiven and cleansed from our sin....from there we experience a peace with God. That is until we get involved in the world whereby our feet get dirty. We lose that peace during the day unless we are careful to stay unspotted from the world. Like a man who looks in a mirror and remembers what he looks like and who he is...in the inner man.
So on this level our peace depends on US drawing near to God. We have perfect peace as long as our hearts are stayed on our God.
But as we go through the door who is Christ, there is no need to collect the dew since it's raining righteousness. The peace with God at that level is beyond human understanding.
Being sinless by being in Christ is an afterthought. You see it more in retrospect....because you are too busy beholding the glory of the Lord.
In my normal walk NOW, I have the peace of a seeker that collects the dew every morning. But when I first fell out of the Spirit, I let myself go. I was selfish. It was easy to be loved by God, but MUCH HARDER to show my love for God by waiting at His door in the obedience of a servant.
Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. Prov 8:34
We love Him because He first loved us. But getting that love out of us is not automatic.
I was talking to a woman yesterday who called me asking for advice. She had walked in the Spirit for a few years (10 years ago) and had left the institution because she saw what the churches have become. But she remained alone. She let herself go. So she is now wanting to get close with God again. So she is like a novice believer...but at a secondary school level.. She needs to APPLY herself in seeking God daily and collecting the dew of the morning. She needs to come back to the door and wait there for Her Master. As a servant. So she is praying about it. We can think that God's love is the same as permissiveness. But a slave of Christ is also to be a slave of righteousness. When we are not in the Lord's presence we shouldn't just become master over our own lives.
Anyway...here are a few thoughts this morning as I collect the morning dew. Righteousness springs up out of the earth...and holiness rains down from heaven
“Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. Is 45:8
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hos 10:12
Peace.
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
None is righteous, no, not one....Romans 3:10
Besides Pentecost, show me an example of Baptized in Spirit in the Bible. Show me the phrase "Baptized in Spirit" in the scriptures? Show me where in the scriptures that Baptized in Spirit replaces water Baptism? Show me in the scriptures where it says water Baptism is not necessary.
The scriptures do not say anything close to that.
Yeshua said that if you do not partake of the ritual (Drinking His blood and eating His flesh) there is no life in you and He will not raise you from the dead at the end. He explained this so literally that it upset His Apostles and He lost most of His disciples.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL LOL Oh my! You mean to tell me you do not know the scriptures that lists all this.
Acts 2:28 and Chapter 6 of the Gospel of John.
How did you get this far and not know that?
No one is righteous that sins not. The righteous sin. This statement is not meant to negate literally HUNDREDS of verses to the contrary. It is meant to balance the status of the righteous with holiness. No one is so righteous as the holy.
Like when Jesus said that the least in the kingdom is greater than the greatest of the righteous
But you are not able to think with the balance of ALL the bible. You knee jerk react and take the balance all to one side.
That's typical of a bible NOVICE...an indoctrinated person,
That's not the point. Water baptism is unto righteousness. Spirit baptism is unto holiness. You are fully blind not to see that.
No...you are adding in the word "ritual" because you have never tasted the life of the Spirit.
Are you Catholic?
Eating His body is to DO what He says. Drinking His blood is partaking of His life.
The ritual is just that.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
To the opposite.....I always say to consider the Bible as a whole as well as the spirit of the scriptures.
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
That was quoting the same statement made in the old testament.
You really believe God's plan of salvation is a total and complete failure and nobody has ever come to Jesus to be born again and has become in right standing with the Lord as a result?
Those not walking in the Spirit need not concern themselves with having the Spirit... because they don't
But the catholics think their priest does a little hocus pocus thing over the bread and the juice and literally turn it in to the actual flesh of Jesus and the actual Blood of Jesus so they apparently think they are cannibals and vampires
I've challenged numerous catholics to send samples in for DNA testing after their priest does his hocus pocus thing but so far none has expressed interest in doing so... because they know it's still just juice and crackers
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Sounds good!
Find the scripture that supports your belief. That says Spirit Baptism is onto holiness. You cannot even find the phrase "Spirit Baptism"
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Call it what you will and find the scripture that says "drinking His blood is partaking of His life" And if that was what it was all about, I do not think it would have upset His Apostles and disciples so much. You do not understand that this concept is seriously sacrilegious to the Jews, that is why His disciple left Him. And He knew that and would not have said it unless it was vitally important to their salvation.
Wrangler
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@Grailhunter, I don’t always agree with @Episkopos but seriously, blah, blah? We can engage in more respect discourse that that.
I too reject ECT as unbiblical. It is the fire that is eternal, not the torment. The wages of sin is not ECT but death.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No I believe in born again and the renewal of a person. The person that comes out of the water is for the moment sinless. God remember no past life for them, remember no sin.
Poor you...needing certain word combinations....instead of congruence of MEANING.
That's how you know that a person is indoctrinated. They can't track meaning...just react to certain words like a pet would. If you say to a dog...SIT. The dog will sit (if He's been conditioned to that word). But if you say...ASSUME THE SEATED POSITION...the dog might just bark at you. The animal doesn't associate MEANING...just conditioning. The bible is useless to such a one...except to be confused.
Same thing with indoctrinated people. You can't learn anything because you only respond to animal like commands.
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