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What is the Purpose of the Law

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by manichunter, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    Did Jesus Lie The Jesus the incarnate Scripture Himself said Matt 5:17-20 17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. How can this be so easily dismissed or explained any other way. He said as long as you see Earth, you will also have Torah. The truth can be found if we are willing to challenge our traditions. We have put Jesus and Paul in conflict with one another. The problem might be with us and our understanding of Scripture.How is the law good, but bad for gentile believers (1 Tim 1: 3-11; 2 Tim 3: 10-17; 2 Tim 2:15; 1 Cor 5:7, 8; Acts 20:16; and ). Was Paul in error in Act 16:1-5, Acts 21:15-26. Let me know. Paul was in agreement along with James, the brother of Yeshua. Paul followed the law to a certain degree, so why don't we. The above text showed that Paul honoured some aspects of the Torah to include the keeping of the Feast dates and instructions of morality.Is the law still good for teaching us about who we are, who God is, and guide how we should respond to both Yahweh and man out of love. This issue has been the central topic of debate since the day of Pentecost when the laws where put into man’s heart. According to 2Ti 3:16 Torah is good for teaching. Paul wrote this Timothy before the existence of any compiled Second Covenant Scripture. Hence what was Timothy to teach from as Scripture, Torah? As Paul said, “for All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work”.It is as Peter said about Paul? Paul is hard to understand and people twist his doctrine (2 Pet 3: 14-16). Have we not properly understood the epistle of Paul since the 3rd century? There have been a great many of apologist that have expanded on the writings of Paul from Justin to Billy Graham. However, they were all gentile believers and controversy surrounded some of them. We have no recorded history of any Jewish Christian apologist to level the playing ground for this debate. Paul is probable rolling over in his grave hearing all this confusion (Joke LOL). This matter has yet to be resolved because confusion still rules the Universal Body of Christ. We exist in a state of lawlessness because there are so many laws, one each per denomination. The problem could come from a lack of an unifying and common foundation. We say that this foundation is Christ, but we walk away from Him divided; and this is not of God. What has Yeshua sat above Himself? What has Yahweh declared will never pass away even if heaven and earth pass away (Luke 21:33)? He promised that His Scripture would never pass away. Since we still see a world, we can conclude that there is still Scripture. If there is still Scripture, then it still applies. The Scripture contains rules for guiding and controlling our behaviour towards God and others. If you asked most one year old questions are rules for conduct in the Scripture, they would say yes. This denomination says you cannot dress like that, that denomination says that you can’t speak like that, and that denomination says you have to be baptized like this. Ate these not a man made rules created from our own soul? Has this path of separate rules led to factionalism, confusion and a state of lawlessness? So, why are playing with words. The word “rule” is synonymous with the word “law”. So we have a Body of Christ that has over a thousand little torahs per denomination. We use words like church creed and statement of beliefs, and we ask people to observe them to establish legitimacy within the denomination. We consider anyone not following the torah of the denomination to be in error. We ask people to follow them in order to maintain fellowship. Hence this is the establishment of torah. So, let’s not fool ourselves, we have torahs, but is it the Torah of the Bible.The question should be, “How does Scripture in context of the Torah apply to believers today.” The Torah still applies to believers today. Our lack of any sort of application of the Torah has rendered us powerless, carnal, and divided. We have either completely thrown out the Law and say we now depend on grace that allows human arbitration or repackaged some of it into the image of our own ideologies.When I say Torah, I mean the Scripture as given to Moses. Not the Misnah or any other Jewish book because, we are not to follow the traditions created by man that the Jews created along side of the Torah. Not even Jesus or Paul followed these things traditions (Col 2:20-23; Matt 16:12; Matt 15:6). The traditions and customs the Jews are sometimes mistaken as Torah. They are not Torah; they are commentaries of the Torah. In Biblical terms the word Torah really means instructions in the fashion of a father would give a child, not law. It is not to be relate from a government prospective to a group of subjects. It was the means of a mentor handing down character and traits to a pupil by example and instructions.This is how Torah changed in the Second Covenant. The Torah was written on our heart by the Holy Spirit and circumcision is now of the heart. Circumcision of the heart is now the sign of the covenant. The Torah is not supposed to be practiced in flesh, but practiced in the Spirit. (Jer 31:31-34, Rom 2:29) There is a difference of being under the supervision of the law and following the law. We are no longer under the law as a means of justification, which comes entirely by faith in the offering of Yeshua. The law cannot make one righteous before God. I repeat the law cannot establish any righteousness for mankind. However, it still generates holiness (1 Pet 1:14, 15; Lev 20:7,8). We still should respect and observe the unfulfilled Torah (civil and moral aspects). The fulfilled Torah still has spiritual principle we should respect as well (ceremonial aspects).Dan 7:23-25, shows that the enemy has intentions of distorting the subject of the law for a reason. The devil has succeeded with the device before by stopping people from observing the law and festivals. Israel threw out the law as well several times to their detriment. The law cannot serve its purpose if it is being ignored and rejected. We all know that Yahweh gave man a law to live by in the First Covenant. However, this law could not be kept by them, because the carnal nature was too inclined to sin, rebel, and be selfish. We were corrupted by sin to serve it. Hence we could not satisfy the righteousness required of the law. It showed Yahweh to be holy and man to be desperately wicked. Hence, Yahweh took it upon Himself to meet the righteousness required of the law and establish the means of our justification for eternal fellowship. Yahweh came in the form of the flesh as man in soul and divine in spirit. His nature was not enslaved to sin because He had a nature that was completely spiritual, eternal, and unselfish. He established a second covenant with Himself and grafted believers into this covenant as a gift. He came in the person of Yeshua (Yahweh provides salvation). Yeshua fulfilled the righteousness requirement of the law. Now we are no longer asked by Yahweh to earn our salvation by keeping the law, we simply trust that Yeshua did it for us as our kinsman redeemer. The works of regeneration, justification, and conversion have been fulfilled in the works of the Christ. The work of adoption has been done by the inscribing of the law in our heart and mind by the Holy Spirit. The work of glorification by the Spirit is awaiting me at my release into eternal life. However, the work of sanctification is still progressing as we live. How are we sanctified? The work of sanctification is the means to be holy. It is in our keeping of the law by the Spirit that we are sanctified unto holiness. The law no longer attempts to justify us, but it does sanctify us. Multiple purposes of the Law (Gal 3: 19-25) 1.The law is a means to so us what sin is. (Rom 7:7) 2.It is a means to show us the person and character of Yahweh and Yeshua. (2 Cor 5:21) 3.It is a means of showing us what we are in contrast to Yahweh. (Rom 3:21-23) 4.It is the means of showing us how to love God and man. (Matt 22: 34-40) 5.It is the means the Holy Spirit uses to sanctify us, so we can be holy in our manner of conduct. (Universal Standard) (2 Tim 3: 14-17) Note- consider what Scripture Timothy had been taught since his childhood. Timothy had been taught the First Covenant Scripture as his source of instruction, conduct, and doctrine he taught others in turn. This is what He also taught others as directed by Paul his mentor. 6.It is the means of establishing one accord as one standard of expected conduct. (Acts 2:42) Yeshua said that He did not come to destroy the law, which means it is still around (Matt 5:17-20). He stated that it will be around until it is all fulfilled. It is not all fulfilled. The last Festivals have yet to be brought out of the shadows. They tell of Yeshua's second physical coming. This is not the first time that the enemy has thrown believers off their game. Dan 7:23-25, says this is what Satan does and will continue to do. He desires to confuse the whole subject of the law and times. There is evidence of confusion being somewhat rooted in the Body of Christ. The ceremonial law has been fulfilled by Yeshua. The required sin offering for the forgiveness of sin has been fulfilled. Hence no need of sacrificing a sin offering. The sweet smelling offerings have now become symbolical. The burnt offering, peace offering, and meat offering are lived by keeping the principles and patterns established in the instructions of these offering. The trespass offering is also lived in principle now. Restitution has to be made when we harm and cause our brother loss. Hence the ceremonial aspects of the law are kept by living the principles established by them. Paul said twice in Scripture that he was being poured out as a drink offering (Phil 2:17; 2 Tim 4: 6). What did he mean by being poured out as a drink offering? It meant that he was being a living sacrifice in connection to the meal offering for a particular reason and fashion. You cannot know this without knowing the ceremonial aspects of law. This same symbolic act of Paul is required of us today. We are also required to be a drink offering. However, most believers are ignorant the law, hence they cannot be a proper offering in reference to them presenting themselves as a living sacrifice as commanded by scripture (Rom 12:1). The moral law is also kept by immediate obedience to the contract of adoption by establishing a covenant that breeched our differences with God and formed our union and agreement. This law was written in our heart by the Spirit Holy through the circumcision of the heart. It is the day that the Holy Spirit establishes an individual covenant with a person.The civil law is kept by obeying the laws of the land and the principles of Scripture that govern our relationships with our brother and unbeliever. So, laws like not charging a fellowship interest on a loan still apply. We are now required to live Torah through the power of the Holy Spirit and in the power of Him already coming. The torah has been written on our heart and the Spirit will cause all true believers to keep His commandments. We can no longer accomplish Torah in the power of our own flesh and strength. I think there are more purposes and info required for a message I am preparing, but I need the help of other posters.
     
  2. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    This law was our means of showing ourselves approved to Yahweh by earning...
    That 'was/has been' the mistake many have fallen into, that it was "earned". As it was and still is by faith.While I do not agree with the whole, overall I enjoyed reading your post. May your studies indeed be blessed. But beware re`eh of the pitfalls along the path. I leave you with Jeremiah 6:16.
     
  3. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    That 'was/has been' the mistake many have fallen into, that it was "earned". As it was and still is by faith.While I do not agree with the whole, overall I enjoyed reading your post. May your studies indeed be blessed. But beware re`eh of the pitfalls along the path. I leave you with Jeremiah 6:16.
    Thanks greatly brother in Christ for spending the time to challenge yourself. I know I come off controversial but I cannot help myself. I have struggled with this for a long while, but God has called me to do this. He has given me the environment (church I attend) and revelation to deliver a message that I know will offend and upset a lot of people, but I can disobey. I just have to take the hits and rejection. I have been kicked off a site for this same post. I have left it as and unedited. I am trying to offend anyone. However some take offense to strange and conflicting doctrines. I have been inspired to preach this message, "It is time to get the House of God in order". This is not popular mission most desire to be called too. I can come to no other conclusion. Yeshua is coming soon and he is preparing his people. Hence, I have to hard charge in the difficult task of starting fires with my brothers. And I have to learn to be okay with the rejections and insults. You are a brother indeed. We are never excused from being kind to one another, I bear witness with the Spirit that you are an humble man from the posts I have seen. May we teach one another more about our Savior. Love.............chris
     
  4. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Thanks greatly brother in Christ for spending the time to challenge yourself.
    Hmmm, I will take that at face value. However, I can assure you it was not a challenge.(manichunter)
    I know I come off controversial but I cannot help myself. I have struggled with this for a long while, but God has called me to do this.
    I understand being 'called'. I also understand 'struggle(s)'. As for being 'controversial', there is a time and a place for everything. Beware that you are not simply 'controversial' for the sake of being 'controversial'.(manichunter)
    He has given me the environment (church I attend) and revelation to deliver a message that I know will offend and upset a lot of people, but I can disobey.
    IMO: It depends greatly upon how one 'delivers' the 'message'.Secondly: I would caution you to beware that the 'message' you deliver is true. From my POV, your message was lacking in several places.Further: I am sure you intended to say 'but I can [not] disobey'.(manichunter)
    I just have to take the hits and rejection. I have been kicked off a site for this same post.
    Interesting. So, let's cut to the chase here. How old is the post in question?(manichunter)
    I have left it as and unedited. I am trying to offend anyone.
    As well as misleading. I would suggest unto you to edit the portion "but I need the help of other posters", for you appear to be asking for help, yet the opening line of your reply, while having an appearance of being complimentary, comes across as condescending.Second: I suggest you edit the portion "I just learned this tonight". For it is misleading in that you did not do so by your own admission here. At the very least, you need to add a comment or note dating the material or clearly state that it is a repost.Further, and I quote: "I am trying to offend anyone". Again, I am left to assume that you intended 'I am [not] trying to offend anyone'.(manichunter)
    I have been inspired to preach this message, "It is time to get the House of God in order". This is not popular mission most desire to be called too. I can come to no other conclusion. Yeshua is coming soon and he is preparing his people. Hence, I have to hard charge in the difficult task of starting fires with my brothers. And I have to learn to be okay with the rejections and insults.
    Yet, can it be done without starting 'fires'? I have several red flags up right now. Your message, while not perfect in it's content, is being set forth in a manner I have witnessed used by some 'cults'. I do hope you can understand my concern(s). Tactics: Opening post misleading; initial response appearing complimentary to some; ending with further compliment(s).Compliments which I will take at face value only.I do hope that was not the intent.Mishleh KH:YH be'oreke 'apeyim yefuteh qatzin velashon rakah tishbar_garem:
     
  5. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    Hey RichardYes, You are correct. I do not mean to be derogatory towards you. Your posts and info I complimented and still stand by them. I am a not a perfect machine, and even I get confused somethings. If I have came off confusing to you, I am sorry for the confusion. I think being blunt and humble at the same time leads to confusion sometimes if you cannot read body language or there is no history with a person..
     
  6. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    Hmmm, I will take that at face value. However, I can assure you it was not a challenge.Yet, can it be done without starting 'fires'? I have several red flags up right now. Your message, while not perfect in it's content, is being set forth in a manner I have witnessed used by some 'cults'. I do hope you can understand my concern(s). Mishleh KH:YH be'oreke 'apeyim yefuteh qatzin velashon rakah tishbar_garem:
    Forgot something Richard out of a distraction.........Personaly, I ask that you perfect my knowledge regarding this subject. What do not know I need to know from someone who knows more than I. There will be no rebuttal or counter because I am trying to learn. I cannot speak for anyone else. So you can post it or PM me, up to you........ thanks again.......chris.......PS- I have a hard time complimenting others as a Ex-drill sergeant and cop for two decades.........
     
  7. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    Well Manichunter, overall- nice typed study. The only things that I wasnt so confident in were the things that Richard already brought up. From reading The Way of the Master- I have come to many new understandings of the purpose of the Law, which may very well be what you just said- just different angle and wording.1. The Law pinpoints each sinner INDIVIDUALLY showing him/her NEED for a way to salvation. Good example I read- Everyone is speeding on a highway, knowing full well it is wrong, yet it isnt individual guilt- its shared. Then in you rear view mirror you see police lights- then all of a sudden the Law singles you out showing you your own faults.2. The Law is the way we know the absolute goodness of the Lord, even in the darkest hour of mankind, in the deepest sin pit we could dig- God STILL reaches down and provides a way.3. The Law teaches Fear for the Lord- full of respect and fearfullness. Jesus didnt save us TO God, He saved us FROM God.
     
  8. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I ask that you perfect my knowledge regarding this subject. What do not know I need to know from someone who knows more than I. There will be no rebuttal or counter because I am trying to learn.
    IMO: Learning requires discussion. I enjoy discussion, for by it two [or more] parties may learn from one another.Since you ask, let's start with something simple. You have used the name "Yahweh". May I ask why you have chosen to use that variation of HaShem [The Name]?The reason I ask, is that it is a 'name' made up by man and has absolutely no inherant meaning. For myself, I simply use the tetragrammaton YHVH. His name has meaning behind it, it is so simple, yet seems to be so elusive unto so many.I would ask again though, how old is the post in question? There is no judgment involved, it is simply an earnest question.(manichunter)
    PS- I have a hard time complimenting others as a Ex-drill sergeant and cop for two decades...
    Understood.
     
  9. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    Manichunter,As I understand it we are living in a court room setting. Take a look at a court room setting and you will find:1. A Judge2. An accuser3. A defense lawyer4. A set of laws that are violated5. A court room setting6. A sentence for those found guilty The Bible clarifies that 1. God is the JudgeAct 17: 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." 2. Satan is the accuserRevelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.3. Christ is the defense lawyerIsaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.4. The law that comes from the Old TestamentMatthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.5. The court room setting is the Great White Throne Judgment.Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 6. The sentence for everyone that does not accept Christ’s sacrifice is death.Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
     
  10. GmamaZ

    GmamaZ New Member

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    Jesus didnt save us TO God, He saved us FROM God.
    Actually He saved us from Sin. [​IMG]
     
  11. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    Actually He saved us from Sin. [​IMG]
    that is the best post I have seen so far today....AMEN!
     
  12. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    (Jackie D;52063)
    that is the best post I have seen so far today....AMEN!
    That is incorrect. He did not come and die for us all to be sin-free (though we must strive to be) RATHER- Gods Judgment.
     
  13. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    That is incorrect. He did not come and die for us all to be sin-free (though we must strive to be) RATHER- Gods Judgment.
    the post did not state that. It says free from sin, not sin-free...bringing a whole new meaning to the words....You twisted the order of the words and thus twisted the message of the poster.
     
  14. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    IMO: Learning requires discussion. I enjoy discussion, for by it two [or more] parties may learn from one another.Since you ask, let's start with something simple. You have used the name "Yahweh". May I ask why you have chosen to use that variation of HaShem [The Name]?The reason I ask, is that it is a 'name' made up by man and has absolutely no inherant meaning. For myself, I simply use the tetragrammaton YHVH. His name has meaning behind it, it is so simple, yet seems to be so elusive unto so many.I would ask again though, how old is the post in question? There is no judgment involved, it is simply an earnest question.Understood.
    I use Yahweh because of the following, it is a compound name of YHVH and Eloa (singular for Elohim) combined as taught by my Pastor and several books I have read in the past. The Greek word is Jehovah. We just put the greek word back into its Hebrew setting. Honest effort to say the least......... Please let me know Rich.....By the way the Opening Post has been re-editted. Take another look at it Ya'll.........
     
  15. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    Manichunter,As I understand it we are living in a court room setting. Take a look at a court room setting and you will find:1. A Judge2. An accuser3. A defense lawyer4. A set of laws that are violated5. A court room setting6. A sentence for those found guilty The Bible clarifies that 1. God is the JudgeAct 17: 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." 2. Satan is the accuserRevelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.3. Christ is the defense lawyerIsaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.4. The law that comes from the Old TestamentMatthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.5. The court room setting is the Great White Throne Judgment.Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 6. The sentence for everyone that does not accept Christ’s sacrifice is death.Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.In Yehoshua,Guy Smith
    Thanks friend, I am going to have to steal this from you..... LOLI think I can be free to add a number seven. The evidence againt the suspect. The evidence against the believer is covered and washed in blood. The evidence against the unbeliever is pretty condenming...........
     
  16. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    I use Yahweh because of the following, it is a compound name of YHVH and Eloa (singular for Elohim) combined as taught by my Pastor and several books I have read in the past.
    Fully understood. Just as 'Jehovah' is made up from the tetragrammaton combined with the nikud [vowel points] from adonai.Yahweh also according to some schools is the tetragrammaton combined with the nikud of adonai.YHVH [yod, he, vav, he]: 'Eloa [alef, lamed, vav, he]If one takes a good look at the above, how does one actually combine them? It is clear that the nikud from Eloa [Eloah] aren't used. So how does one truly and honestly combine them?Further, in Ivrit [Hebrew] Yahweh [Yahwe, if we drop the last 'he' as in eloa], has no inherant meaning. What does Yahweh mean in Ivrit?(manichunter)
    The Greek word is Jehovah. We just put the greek word back into its Hebrew setting.
    Hmmm. Perhaps you meant that the other way around? AFAIK, 'Jehovah' is an english via latin rendering of YHVH combined with the nikud from adonai.However, Jehovah as a name has meaning to it. It could literally be rendered as 'he ruins' coming from a verbal root. Just as Ehyeh asher ehyeh [cf Shemot (Exo) 3:14]: conjugated verb, relative participle, conjugated verb; "I shall be who I shall be" or as most recognize it, "I AM that I AM". Regrettably the conjugation of the verb is future tense rather than present tense.IMO: HaShem, YHVH, has meaning, it's meaning is simple if we only search it out. Perhaps as we discuss this, I will share with you my findings upon the matter.(manichunter)
    By the way the Opening Post has been re-editted. Take another look at it Ya'll.........
    Sincerely appreciate the edit.
     
  17. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    In Biblical terms the word Torah really means instuctions in the fashion of a father would give a child, not law. It is not to be relate from a government prospective to a group of subjects. It was the means of a mentor handing down character and traits to a pupil by example and instructions.
     
  18. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    Fully understood. Just as 'Jehovah' is made up from the tetragrammaton combined with the nikud [vowel points] from adonai.Yahweh also according to some schools is the tetragrammaton combined with the nikud of adonai.YHVH [yod, he, vav, he]: 'Eloa [alef, lamed, vav, he]If one takes a good look at the above, how does one actually combine them? It is clear that the nikud from Eloa [Eloah] aren't used. So how does one truly and honestly combine them?Further, in Ivrit [Hebrew] Yahweh [Yahwe, if we drop the last 'he' as in eloa], has no inherant meaning. What does Yahweh mean in Ivrit?Hmmm. Perhaps you meant that the other way around? AFAIK, 'Jehovah' is an english via latin rendering of YHVH combined with the nikud from adonai.However, Jehovah as a name has meaning to it. It could literally be rendered as 'he ruins' coming from a verbal root. Just as Ehyeh asher ehyeh [cf Shemot (Exo) 3:14]: conjugated verb, relative participle, conjugated verb; "I shall be who I shall be" or as most recognize it, "I AM that I AM". Regrettably the conjugation of the verb is future tense rather than present tense.IMO: HaShem, YHVH, has meaning, it's meaning is simple if we only search it out. Perhaps as we discuss this, I will share with you my findings upon the matter.Sincerely appreciate the edit.
    Yes do that, thanks greatly......
     
  19. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    In Biblical terms the word Torah really means instuctions
    Well said.
     
  20. manichunter

    manichunter New Member

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    My post is all about how we conduct ourselves (holiness), not justification for anything. The real problem is people want to conduct themselves as they sit fit. Grace becomes an escape goat........ to excuse mankind for doing his own thing. Paul warned against using his message for a license to do our own thing. Most think the manner of conduct has been left to us. Others cloak it by creating torahs of our own in church creeds and beliefs. However, grace is acts under the control of the Spirit in accordance with God Scripture (Torah). All Scripture is God's instruction to believers. Responsible for crime --------------------------------------------------------------------------------How is there a penalty for sin for a sinner if the law is not available. We say the sinner will go to hell, but why. How can someone be punished for transgressing against God, when their is no torah. A person can only be charged for a crime if their is a law against the crime. If the torah is abolished, then the sinner is pardoned for transgression and without need of atonement. Christ died for atonement. Some say His atonement was so complete that it abolished the torah. The torah is now dead and of no use to God because it has finished its work. Hence the Holy Spirit has no torah at its disposal to convict mankind of sin.
     
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