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WHAT IS THE SIN UNTO DEATH?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Nancy, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:16 Say's to me that, there IS a point of no return for some. NOT that God would not yet, still extend His Amazing Grace grace to a repentant sinner but, if their consciences have been eroded over time, I can see why one should not waste their precious prayers for someone who will not receive. Must keep our hearts softened!!!

    Interesting. 1 Cor. 5:5 say's to give the sinning believers "up to Satan"...so at least their souls would be saved even if they die physically so, was it God who struck them dead or did He just simply allow Satan to kill them, I wonder. Then I think of Priscilla and Aquila...

    I think "sin unto death" is willful and ongoing... sin without repentance of any kind, or IOW - "living IN sin" rather than "IN Christ/The Spirit", carnal, fleshy, or perhaps it can be when someone's conscience's become 'seared' and there is no turning back?
    God calls His children to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and He corrects us when we sin. We aren't "punished" for our sin in the sense of being eternally separated from God, but we are disciplined. "The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son" (Hebrews 12:6)."

    So, I suppose...REJOICE when you are being chastened by God because, if He did not love us, He would not chasten and test us.

    1 John 5:16 is a tough one for me, and I know I am not understanding it perfectly...yet! :)
    But, I cannot see Christians being sent to, whatever Hell is, for "falling" but not "living" in sin. IOW - STOP, repent and, move on in growing in The Lord.

    Sometimes it seems to me that, sin itself is not dealt with inside the Church as it should be. Too many make assumptions (thus, judge) and not enough will bother to get to know you personally. Many are gossips and believe every word.
    The Church is about as broken as the world IMO.
    God help us all!

    So, anybody like to chime in about 1 John 5:16 specifically the sins "unto and not unto death".

    Thanks :)
    Nancy
     
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  2. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    To vote for Bidden?
     
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  3. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha! funeeeee!
     
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  4. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Just kidding, good post by the way I'll be listening to see how it goes.
     
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  5. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I will say though that all sin in my opinion is unto death.
     
  6. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks!
    I knew you were kidding ;)
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That passage is not about unrepentant or repentant sinners. It is about sinning SAINTS. Big difference. John is addressing Christians (children of God) in his epistles, and this is what he writes in 1 John 5:

    16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    So what do we learn from this?
    1. Christians can and do sin. There are some here claiming sinless perfection and that is a lie (which also makes God a liar).

    2. Christians are to confess their sins and forsake their sins (chapters 1 & 2).
    3. If a Christian is found to be in sin, his brothers and sisters must (1) try to turn him back from sinning and (2) pray for him (and also that his life be preserved), so that he repents and turns away from sinning. This would be in a local church context.
    4. If that Christians forsakes his sin, then it is a sin NOT unto (premature physical) death.
    5. If that Christian persists in sinning, in spite of being admonished and prayed for, then it becomes a sin unto death. That person will die prematurely so that the testimony of Christ is not damaged.
     
  8. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "That passage is not about unrepentant or repentant sinners. " It is about sinning SAINTS. Big difference." <---- Don't believe I ever said that the "passage" was about repentant or unrepentant sinners...
    As for the rest of your post, can't say I disagree with it :)
     
  9. Yan

    Yan Active Member

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    Mostly the sin unto death is when you had lived in islamic country, and they will accuse you as being other than "allah" worshiper. This was the main problem to what case Jesus had crucified because he said that he was God and teacher (John 13:13), and islamic theology had condemn all those people who teach mankind as God because they're deceived by their own Koran about Pharaoh who claimed as God must be put to death.
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Here is what you said: "NOT that God would not yet, still extend His Amazing Grace grace to a repentant sinner..."
     
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  11. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Could you print out the text of that verse in the version you like and use , maybe in context ?

    God helps everyone, sort of. Some still remain dead in sin and trespasses (some being at least two thirds of mankind in these last days as written in the apocalypse) and never receive eternal life in the resurrection. (' and after one third of mankind died (not saying in Scripture if any of them were saved),
    the remaining two thirds of mankind REFUSE to repent of worshiping (serving) demons ' the apocalypse (Revelation) .
     
  12. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    footnote found John 5:40 while searching Scripture >

    40 And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

    Is this possibly related to the one who sins a sin unto death ? They are not willing ?
    Or simply another description of those who opposed Jesus, not the same sin ?
     
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  13. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with what you say here, about John 5:40 being a sin unto death. Simply to me it could mean rejecting Christ or of course, blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
     
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  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    A sin unto death is a sin that separates us from God. Like how Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. A sin pondered in the mind but not acted upon is not unto death...not until it is acted upon.
     
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  15. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    What about adultery as Jesus Says in the NT ?

    He Said that whoever looks upon a woman and desires her in his heart, has ALREADY committed adultery. (i.e. sin, transgression)
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Until an act is committed in the physical realm the devil has nothing to show for it. So God sees the sin indeed. God sees our thoughts. So we still sin with the mind. But it is only as the sin is brought to maturity in the physical realm that it leads to death.

    God gives us a chance to change our minds. If all men were destroyed for every thought...no one would live.

    James 1: 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    Notice it does not say....it gives birth to sin and then death automatically.
     
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  17. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Adultery: Matthew 5 (it is already adultery, not necessarily unto death (i.e. if repented of or ? ) ...

    27You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.…
    Berean Study Bible · Download
     
  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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  19. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, pretty much boils down to that.
     
  20. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @Nancy
    "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." I John 5:16-17


    Sin is sin but consider these verses...

    "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt 12:32

    "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:16

    And why is it that in the OT under the law given to Moses the punishment for pre-meditated sins was death, whereas sins of ignorance could be set aside with a sacrifice? Does that relate here when we see that God is no respecter of persons and He 0never changes?

    Then again, how much mercy will God extend to us? How many times may we sin again and He will have mercy on us yet again?

    How many sins are we allowed to commit and repent of before God will
    no longer forgive us?

    I won't say how many because if I am correct the answer would be
    God's not mine.

    It was not until after the natural children of Israel had rebelled
    10 times that God forbade the promised land to them.

    In the case of Moses, only one rebellion resulted in him not being
    able to enter the promised land.

    But..see the following verses:

    "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother
    sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
    Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but,
    Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22

    Jesus told Peter to forgive his offending brother 490 times, but
    maybe that just means not to set a limit on how many times we
    forgive our brother. How many times will the infinitely merciful God
    forgive those that sin against Him? It was ten for the natural
    children of Israel and only one for Moses. For us it should be...

    "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes,
    shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given,
    of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much,
    of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

    Moses was given more than the others who came out of Egypt with him
    so the one offense was all he was allowed while those others received
    ten.

    How much leeway we are given or how many times God will overlook our
    sins and receive our renewed repentance should also depend on how
    much He has given us to deal with our situation. Only God knows the
    answer to that for each person and therefore He alone can say how
    many sins will be allowed before He will finally reject a person.

    Does scripture teach us that it is wrong to ask forgiveness?

    "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Matt 7:7

    Do you suppose that asking God for forgiveness of our sins would fall into the category of asking amiss, when we definitely know that we have sinned?

    "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3

    Does not scripture teach that we are to confess our sins?

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9

    When we confess our sins is not our purpose to be forgiven for those sins so that we will be acceptable in the eyes of God?

    If we refused to admit the need to confess our sins before God, do we suppose that He will simply forgive us anyway in spite of our rebellion?

    Therefore when we confess, is it not or should it not be in our hearts to obtain the forgiveness of God whether we speak the words, "Father forgive me for my sins", or not?

    Was David wrong here to ask that his sins be forgiven?

    "Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive all my sins." Psalm 25:18

    Perhaps one would say that David lived prior to the birth of Christ and the redemption that His sacrifice provided. Did not, however, the Jesus provide redemption for any of those who had lived in times before He made the sacrifice?

    So as David simply asked of God that which he knew was needed, would it be wrong for us to ask of God when we know that we are in need? Are we not in need of forgiveness in order to ever come to the place where God wants us to be?

    When we have overcome everything that stand between us and God as Jesus did, then could we definitely say that do not need to ask for His forgiveness!

    It may not be necessary to say the words, "Father forgive me for my sins, but that request must be in our hearts if we are to be forgiven! Yes, the price is already paid, but to receive the reward of forgiveness allowed by the price, do we not still need to follow this verse?

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

    When we do present our bodies as living sacrifices are we not of necessity asking within our presentation for Him to forgive us of all of our faults, all of our sins?

    Then again, if we have really been cleansed in a particular point and then return to our own vomit, and then attempt to turn back to God, we are, in effect, hoping that He will have mercy on us. He gave us what Jesus had, and we muffed it, all of us who are here and have sinned at all since we first believed.

    This why the people in the world who also of the world, coming to Christ for the first time always are allowed a place of repentance.

    On the other hand, people who have been in the world, but of God in any measure, and then have gone back into sin, have already used up their one free chance.

    "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6

    As, we have probably seen, in our own experiences, God is extremely merciful, repeatedly "forgiving" us and allowing us on the inside one more time.

    The sacrifice of Jesus, indeed, is not as the sacrifice of bulls and goats and sheep. Man's problem is not that the sacrifice cannot do what it is supposed to do, but rather that man, usually, does not really believe that it can do what it is supposed to do. Somewhere in this lack of knowledge and man's failure to use fully and properly that which he has been given is the reason [known only to God] why God continues to show mercy, when no mercy on His part is required any more...

    If men were to repent just the one time and then follow the Spirit continuously without interruption or hesitation from that time on, there would never be any need for other repentances and other requests for forgiveness. Instead of listening to and following the Holy Ghost given for that purpose, men listen to and follow men...

    We sing the song, "Thank you Lord for saving my soul! Thank you Lord for making me whole", before we have been made whole!"

    How long would a person need to listen to and follow the Spirit without interruption before all of the work on the new man was completed? Not long I am sure! We are speaking of God working within us!

    When we break our connection with God's Spirit by our own will [which we can do], we stop the work of the Spirit in the new man. If we sin before re-establishing that connection, the Spirit must re-do the work that was done the previous time before building any thing new. We are imitating with these kind of actions the way it was when men repeatedly offered sacrifices through the Levitical priesthood. It should not be this way, but it is. God knowing that this is a possibility, is merciful, again, extemely merciful, but I do not believe that His mercy with a repeat offender will endure forever.

    There is a point of no return!

    Thinking to ourselves for example: God forgave me before so if I do this one sin just once more He will certainly forgive me again". Then having thought and going ahead and sinning before I have the opportunity to repent as I am sitting in my easy chair lightning strikes my home killing me instantaneously...
     
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