So you've decided to just ignore what Jesus said in Matt 28:19Dear GodsGrace,
You asked:
So when Jesus sent out the 12 in Matthew 28:19 - the great commission - and He said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what did He mean?
Christ is referring baptizing a person in water. Only Christ can spiritually baptize a person. Also, the name that we are to use to baptize a person in water is the name of Jesus. All the examples in the NT of water baptism use the name Jesus and not "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".
You asked:
I have to disagree on one point.
You said that 1 Cor 1:2 Paul is saying that the SAINTS are babes.
What does saint mean to you?
Saint just means a person that is set aside for service to God.
Truth is taught "here a little and there a little". Here is a verse you must consider in order to understand what it means to be a saint:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
"Many" people in this world are "called to be a saint". They are called when they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. With only the Early Rain, they are "babes" who are not converted, nor has their elect status been confirmed (confirmed to be a saint). To be confirmed to be a saint, Christ must return to the babe before they physically die and pour out the Latter Rain. After He does, they are confirmed to be a saint.
Also, notice in Mat 24:14 that only a "few" of the "many" who are called have actually been chosen to be a saint. It is only a very small group of people who will be saved in this age. For this reason, the saints are said to be blessed.
As for a definition of the word "saint", it is referring to a person who has been chosen & converted and who will reign with Christ over the balance of unsaved mankind in the final age.
In the scripture below, Paul is talking about saints:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us (saints) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Finally, notice how Paul addresses his letter to the Ephesian church:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (converted/no longer babes) which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful (babes who only have the Early Rain/unconverted) in Christ Jesus:
Paul makes this same distinction between those who are unconverted babes and those who are converted saints in his letter to the Colossian church:
Col 1:2 To the saints (converted/both Early & Latter Rain) AND faithful brethren (called/babes/unconverted/Early Rain only) in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Also, when you read Heb 11 about the OT faithful, it says in verses 39 & 40 that they died in their faith but were not yet made perfect. Why? Because the baptism of the Holy Spirit was only given after Christ's resurrection. To be made perfect requires a person to be given the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain), followed by the baptism of Fire. This is conversion. The OT faithful had only received the Early Rain and that is why they were faithful but still not perfect (converted). This is also why Paul refers to the babes in the churches as being "faithful" and not saints.
Joe
WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?
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Dear nedsk,
Why do you think that I am ignoring Mat 28:19???
Mat 28:19 is saying that we are to teach and baptize people in water in the name of Jesus who have made a confession of faith. The people who make a confession of faith do so only because Christ has given them the Early Rain of the Spirit beforehand.
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
The Early Rain of the Spirit is NOT the baptism of the Spirit. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is the baptism of the Spirit.
Consider this verse that shows the Early Rain of the Spirit and water baptism:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word (because they had been given the Early Rain beforehand) were baptized (in water) and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The water baptism confirms a person's testimony of faith and foreshadows the spiritual baptism that comes later.
Joe
I don't see the phrase "early rain" anywhere.
The instruction in Matt 28:19 says NOTHING about baptising those "...who have made a confession of faith." I don't see that either. You seem to say a lot of things that don't appear in Scripture
Jesus also was speaking to Nicodemus (who was noted as being of the sect of Pharisees)
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews
And John himself baptized with water but those of the Pharisees (specifically) rejected being baptized by John as noted here
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
So that would be Nicodemus' mindset, rejecting the water baptism of John I would think, because it also says, all the common people heard John, and the publicans and harlots justified God being baptized by John but that the Pharisees specifically rejected the counsel of God against themselves in not being baptized by John.
And Jesus gives an example between a certain two as far as doing the will of God as far as John goes in this and asks these,
Matt 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father?
They say unto him, The first.
Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
The context
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
And Jesus, "the righteousness of God" comes out to John to be baptized
Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Obviously, we cannot blame John for his initial reaction
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And John actually had the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb (Luke 1:15)
Which might beg the question, which baptism would John be in need of if John has the Holy Ghost (More Holy Ghost and or fire or water) Mat 3:11, Luke 7:30?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Jesus to John (in respects to his own water baptism) said, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness"
And again here this way,
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Since the publicans and harlots are shown as justifying God (and not self) here in this thing
Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Whereas to the contrary, the sect of Nicodemus (who come to Jesus by night) rejected the same.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
And its on this point in Matt Jesus says to them here
Matt 21:31 Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
And that was in the context of water and entering the Kingdom even as water is included in the following concerning entering the Kingdom in conversation with a Pharisee.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And the Holy Ghost can be given before baptism by water as shown in John as well as in Acts 10:47 as is shown us in the the Gentiles as Peter points out
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews
And John himself baptized with water but those of the Pharisees (specifically) rejected being baptized by John as noted here
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
So that would be Nicodemus' mindset, rejecting the water baptism of John I would think, because it also says, all the common people heard John, and the publicans and harlots justified God being baptized by John but that the Pharisees specifically rejected the counsel of God against themselves in not being baptized by John.
And Jesus gives an example between a certain two as far as doing the will of God as far as John goes in this and asks these,
Matt 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father?
They say unto him, The first.
Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
The context
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
And Jesus, "the righteousness of God" comes out to John to be baptized
Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Obviously, we cannot blame John for his initial reaction
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And John actually had the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb (Luke 1:15)
Which might beg the question, which baptism would John be in need of if John has the Holy Ghost (More Holy Ghost and or fire or water) Mat 3:11, Luke 7:30?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Jesus to John (in respects to his own water baptism) said, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness"
And again here this way,
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Since the publicans and harlots are shown as justifying God (and not self) here in this thing
Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Whereas to the contrary, the sect of Nicodemus (who come to Jesus by night) rejected the same.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
And its on this point in Matt Jesus says to them here
Matt 21:31 Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
And that was in the context of water and entering the Kingdom even as water is included in the following concerning entering the Kingdom in conversation with a Pharisee.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And the Holy Ghost can be given before baptism by water as shown in John as well as in Acts 10:47 as is shown us in the the Gentiles as Peter points out
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Let's go back to the creation event as told by Peter in his letter.
"The heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water "
Now Peter was not lying or completely misrepresenting the Torah with some wild theological stance he created out of whole cloth.
Because out of ALL the Apostles, he FINALLY understood the lesson of walking on the Sea of Galilee. (More of a prophetic miracle than most understand)
I will grant you he was slow. He did NOT understand this for a LONG time. (And he sank as a result) Paul had to chew his backside over it AFTER Jesus did the very same thing. (More than once)
Water is symbolic of Law of some sort. It can be as loose as a preference leading to a customary routine to structured tradition to codified laws resulting in capital punishment for violating them.
"Wash her with the water of the word".
And that water cleanses you now, not by the removal of dirt but by the pledge of clean hands and heart (conscience) to God. (IOW not physical water but symbolic water of the Laws of God)
The Sea of Galilee....sea being the operative word here. Sea is a Hebrew word that is identical with the abyss or Tehövm. That same abyss of Chaos as written as "The Spirit of the Lord was Hovering/Shaking over the Deep" or in less flowery terms God was exercising control over the chaos of laws available to him to create the natural order in the universe. He wrote every last one of them....and a massive overriding theme of Genesis 1 is that God creates order out of chaos.
So when Jesus puts that chaos of Tehovm/abyss under his feet....showing utter contempt for what man has done to his Laws....and Peter fell into it and almost drowned....just like he did in real life in the future....
Sure, you can be born of the Spirit. But you need to live a new life based on the current Laws of God.
And I ALWAYS find it strange that no one ever lists the New Covenant laws. (Jesus did give some)
Just musing here....
Oh,
And before I forget again..
It's very good to see you posting again @GodsGrace. Missed you around here.
And if the world decides to get a bit more peaceful (and I can score a mission trip nearby) I am gonna stop in to see you. It's just too tempting to not do it.
And before I forget again..
It's very good to see you posting again @GodsGrace. Missed you around here.
And if the world decides to get a bit more peaceful (and I can score a mission trip nearby) I am gonna stop in to see you. It's just too tempting to not do it.
Dear nedsk,
Why would anyone want to be baptized in water if they have no faith in Christ? Only those who make a confession of faith are to be baptized in water.
A person's faith comes from having a small measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain) within them when they hear the Gospel preached. Water baptism is to be performed secondly as an outward testimony to their faith that the Early Rain gave them.
If Christ does not give the Early Rain to a person, they will never have faith in Him or be willing to accept Him as their Lord. Why? Because of what these verses below state:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Without the small measure of the Spirit that the Early Rain gives a person, a person will reject Christ and His Gospel 100% of the time.
The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Christ gives to a person to call them to be a saint. This is what causes a person to enter the church. The babe will remain in the church as long as they remain faithful. However, since the time that the spirit of anti-Christ entered the church near the end of the 1st century A.D., none of the babes in the church have remained faithful. They have all fallen from grace just as scripture teaches that they will do.
Many people are called to be saints but only a few of those who are called will actually become saints. They become saints because Christ comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism). It is in this way that Christ builds His true church. It is His decision as to who will be in His church. For this reason, the saints are said to be "chosen" and have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Lastly, Christ teaches "here a little and there a little". For this reason, I combine what Christ said in Mat 28:19 with what He said in other places of scripture. When a person doesn't learn truth in this manner, they will usually fill in the silent portions of a verse with their own preconceived beliefs. This will cause error most times. If a verse is silent in a portion, we must look to other scripture to fill in the silent part.
Here is a good example of how error happens:
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Other forum members will frequently quote this verse to me to prove that mankind has a free will ability to choose. However, this verse is silent on whether a person's choice comes from a free will ability to choose. To know if mankind has a free will ability to make choices, we must look to other scripture. When we do, it is clear that mankind does not have a free will ability.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Joe
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Jesus' description goes back to the terms first use in the creation of the heavens and the earth, referred to as the waters above and below the firmament--meaning above or below, as heaven is above and earth is below.
In other words, the water in John 3:5 refers to first being born of this world, and yes, is consistent with natural birth. The message then, is that we must first be born into this world, which is to say out of heaven, and to get back again we must also be born from above.
@nedsk
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