WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[Fred J]

Yes, its these which I am referring to

The fiery trial which is to try you

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

As ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Even here, we have the trial of our faith mentioned, tried by fire

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

Thanks.

1 Corinthians 3:
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Matthew 7:
24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26. And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

Although I am not sure can link the above to the following, for example

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Acts 2:
3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is to make disciples of all nation and fulfill the commission of Jesus gave them.

Because I would think this is the context of fire in the following verse

Matt 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

This verse is referring to the 'lake of fire burning with brimstone' (Revelation 19:20/ 20:10)
.

 

[Fred J]

Okay, I thought about it for a second, I think I got it, and can work it in two ways


Fiery trial (try it again)


The fiery trial which is to try you

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

As ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Even here, we have the trial of our faith mentioned, tried by fire

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

Heres where this can link in to here and the other post (in respect to the wheat)

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Christ here (Who is the power of God 1 Cr 1:24) says

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

These are they who are kept by "the power of God" (through faith)

1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

Just repeating this verse to show where it was pulled from again

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Hold on, let me get the one that mentions the wheat and the fire and add a few of these in

Matthew 5:
10. Blessed are they which are persecutes for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
11. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.
12. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

John 15:
18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.
21. But all these things will they do unto you for My name's sake, because they know not HIM that sent Me.

John 16:
33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[GodsGrace]

That's very sweet, am sorry if i was a bit straightforward in clarifying things.

No problem.
All good.

GodsGrace, it is indeed the 'natural water baptism', for GOD never change nor HIS every word that proceeded out of HIS mouth.

We're not serving an apologetic GOD that HE makes mistakes and corrects them later.

By then many believers would have died believing in the false doctrine caused by GOD, even though men corrupted it.

'Let GOD be true, but every man a liar'; as it is written


Now, It's not wise for Jesus to remind men that they must be born of the water in the bag of the mother's womb to enter the Kingdom of GOD.

Apparently all men did and are eligible, unless Jesus is referring to probably some aliens there that they are exempted?

No, sound so pathetic and unwise and uncool!

Every time we read 'baptize' in the New Testament it is closely referring to 'natural water baptism'.

The one John the Baptist referred to proclaiming to the Jews, baptize with 'Holy Ghost and fire', is the baptism took place on the day of Pentecost.

Another in the house of Cornelius, but 'fire' is not mentioned in the 'text', so we leave it as it is written.

When Apostle Paul said, He's not sent to baptize, clearly He's referring to the ministry of 'natural water baptism', still in progress during his time.

He's been given the ministry of proclaiming the Gospel, but yet he did baptize some of his fellow servants.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

Here's what is starting to change my mind.....the idea that:
Of course we have to be born FIRST....this seems like it doesn't require mentioning....

Plus the fact that Hebrew is really BORN FROM ABOVE instead of BORN AGAIN...
a point could be made of this also, which would reject physical birth by removing the word AGAIN, as if one is born 2X.

Sometimes it's difficult to change from a teaching that was ingrained many years ago but that somehow I was never fully convinced of.
But I'm always looking to make sure I understand the teachings of Jesus.

Thanks for all your effort in regard to this topic.
I really appreciate it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes consecrated, sacred, to God.

Only if His word is not in you. His word comes by God Himself and is not written on stone nor in ink but in the hearts and mind of those who God has come to and made us holy by having the same Spirit of Mind that He is. Which simply is Love, for God is Love and man is the temple of Him. Or is supposed to be.



Yes consecrated, God in me and I in Him. Walk as He walks in His same light of mind.

Only if the same divinity from God that Jesus had in himself as you are supposed to have in you, is not in you.


So did I when God Himself opened in me His truths about it. Trinity is a man made doctrine and is only excuses not to be that person of Christ that God make man to be by the Spirit that He is to be in His same image and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Good. I dont either, it is a false doctrine.

If Jesus was God they worshipped Aman that no longer is with us. But we who worship the same God as Jesus did He is alive and well in us all who has received Him as Jesus did.


Here is what Jesus said about that himself. Not what others said about him from their own opinions that we read of. And if you worship Jesus as God then you dont know the God that he said he obeyed and worshiped proven below in who he said he was in his God.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.







There is noting to debate if you have the same God in you who came to Jesus in Matt 3:16.

I dont, the term Christian is so abuse by religion minds, if someone asks me if I am christian I simply reply -- I an a son of God, His child if that is what you mean.

A christian is exactly as Jesus was in the Father anointed of God, we walk exactly as He walks in His same light of mind, perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.


Trinity was establish by those who never has met the same God as Jesus did in Matt 3:16, Adam met Gen 3:22, Abraham met,. Moses met, Mary met, 120 met, they all met the same Spirit of God mainly Jesus in Matt 3:16 met Him.


LOL. God is not a person at all, God is a Spirit and I am the place He resides just as His residence was in these who He came to as well. you worship persons instead to the God who is a Spirit and man is His kingdom in which He lives, See Jesus in that in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is with you.

What if Jesus was right and you are wrong?


the quite dictating to Him who he is and what He is by your own will for Him.


God has given His will for man already to be in His same image by the Spirit that He is.


No only you can judge Him.

From what I see , you are listening to the wrong god.


Amen and is in us all who has received Him in us as Jesus, only God Himself can open in you His word. the Bible is only a tutorial for how to receive from God Himself.


Yes, my flesh, Jesus flesh, Adams flesh, Abrahams flesh, Moses flesh, and all flesh who has recieved Him in us.

Amen in the beginning of every mans salvation is the word and that word comes by God Himself. Man is the kingdom of it.

Good morning Gary Mac
As I said already, this is not turning into a thread about the divinity of Jesus.
All those verses you posted prove absolutely nothing.
Start a thread if you like,,,however, as I've already said,,,
I don't think two CHRISTIANS (have have the title Christian under your avatar)
should be debating the divinity of Jesus.

You've come to some kind of idea about being like God and that Jesus was no more like this than any of us are.
Fine.
Believe that if you will.

I don't believe I'm the same as Jesus and I truly doubt anyone on this thread believes he is.

As to the Trinity...it's all over the bible.
Including the OT.

If you don't see it, I'm not going to work to try to make you see it.
I guess we each see what we WANT to see.

BTW,,,I didn't learn the Trinity from man...it's in scripture.
From the beginning to the end.
Genesis to Revelation.


You posted one verse that states that Jesus came down from heaven.
What MAN ever came down from heaven?


Here are some verses that show Jesus was not a MAN:

John 1:9
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, has the world been made through YOU? Only God can create.


John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, Guess you missed my first posting of this verse. The WORD was WITH GOD and the Word WAS GOD...John 1:1
This SAME WORD became flesh.

John 1:18
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The Son was in the bossom of the Father.

and

John 3:13
13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Jesus calls Himself The Son of Man...are we all sons of man?
If someone believes IN ME....will he be saved?


And I mentioned that only God can judge and your reply is that we all can judge.
Gary....we all cannot judge the eternal condition of a person...
we cannot judge the soul of a person.
ONLY GOD can do this....
and Jesus will be the judge.

John 5:25-29
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Perhaps you know what SON OF MAN means and have discarded this teaching.
Just as many do...they accept what they like from scripture
and discard the rest.
It's a common practice.

 

[Fred J]

No problem.
All good.

Here's what is starting to change my mind.....the idea that:
Of course we have to be born FIRST....this seems like it doesn't require mentioning....

Plus the fact that Hebrew is really BORN FROM ABOVE instead of BORN AGAIN...
a point could be made of this also, which would reject physical birth by removing the word AGAIN, as if one is born 2X.

Sometimes it's difficult to change from a teaching that was ingrained many years ago but that somehow I was never fully convinced of.
But I'm always looking to make sure I understand the teachings of Jesus.

Thanks for all your effort in regard to this topic.
I really appreciate it.

Cheers, all is good in Jesus name and Glory be to GOD. Amen.

i believe by now you're probably by birth a Christian already?

Me once a pagan by birth and in my 30s i became 'born again' and a Christian.

Looks like i am born 2X, first in the kingdom of man and second in the Kingdom of GOD.

Therefore it suites me fine, whether 'born from above' or 'born again', they meant the same.

Even those Christian by birth due to their parents, cannot be Christian until they're 'born from above' or 'born again' themselves.

Shalom in the name of Jesus

 

[GodsGrace]

Cheers, all is good in Jesus name and Glory be to GOD. Amen.

i believe by now you're probably by birth a Christian already?

Me once a pagan by birth and in my 30s i became 'born again' and a Christian.

Looks like i am born 2X, first in the kingdom of man and second in the Kingdom of GOD.

Therefore it suites me fine, whether 'born from above' or 'born again', they meant the same.

Even those Christian by birth due to their parents, cannot be Christian until they're 'born from above' or 'born again' themselves.

Shalom in the name of Jesus

Agreed.
One cannot be born a Christian...
he must become one by choice.

I was born Catholic, into a Catholic family.
But, at some point, one must decide to believe or not believe.
Jesus said we must BELIEVE...so until then we cannot be saved.
Another person cannot believe "for us".

 

[complete]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'
(Joh 3:5-6)

Hello @GodsGrace,

There is a figure of speech here, in which there are two words employed but only one thing or idea meant: Tt is called Hendiadys (literally one by means of two). That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 & 8, where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned.

The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of 'earthly things' (v.12). And as, 'a master in Israel,' he knew perfectly well the prophecy of Ezek. 36:25-27 concerning the kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land. Jehovah had declared:- 'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean .. And I will put my spirit within you,' etc.,

* The cleansing of that day is not with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Hence only one thing is meant:- 'Except a man be begotten of water, yes - and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' That spiritual water stands, by another figure (Metonymy), for the Holy Spirit Himself: as is clear from John 7:38-39:- 'water - (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive ... ).'

So, there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water - but to that baptism of the Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering into the Kingdom of God; a moral sphere, which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref: ' Figures of Speech Used In The Bible'.

 

[Gary Mac]

Seriously?

What about, 'baptizing them in the name of the FATHER, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost'?

In the book of Acts, as they are Apostles now, they do water baptize people, even Paul to few of his fellow servants.

What about the baptism from God Himself that Adam received and became like God to know that difference from water and Spirit? And Abraham, and Moses, and Mary, and Jesus and 120 all learned that same difference from mans rituals for a belief and God Himself come and open in you His truths as He did in All of these,

Most can relate to only one baptism that of man, and shun the one that God performs in man that cleanses our minds from all unrighteousness, water cant do that at all.

 

[nedsk]

The charges name/term came from this passage of scripture. But Simon in scripture was Baptized by an Apostle....one of the 12.

And the subject of the Apostles not being successful in casting out a demon (your reference numbers provided are incorrect) comes immediately following the transfiguration.
And that has zero bearing on the discussion at hand except for the fact that Simon was NOT one of the Born from Above. His name was left off the list created by the prophets before he was born. Absolutely denied. Not there to further the Kingdom....he was there to profit off the misery of others. (Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Laurie White, Paula White....and many more than I can name in a single post.)

The list was short....and there even have been Gentiles/Goyimn on the list. But not Simon Magnus. (Simony is what we call it when someone tries to purchase a high position in a religious organization

It's now a term and name like Judas, Benedict Arnold, Jezebel, Delilah, or even Blake Lively.

So?

 

[JohnDB]

So?

There's a huge disparity between what you are claiming to be true and what the Scriptures say. In fact it's polar opposite.

 

[nedsk]

So many have been in the dark for so long re: the "water baptism" heresy.


Context is everything. Here is the passage:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat. 28:18-20).

What are the action words in that passage (v. 19)?

There are only two action words = go and preach. When the disciples obey the commands to go and to preach, then the result is that people get baptized and taught. The disciples are NOT told to baptize anyone. Rather, baptizing is what takes place EVERY TIME someone receives the truth of what they preach.

So baptism is never a one-off. Baptizing happens to someone EVERY TIME he receives the truth.

Concerning the OP:

WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?​

Again, context is everything.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The emphasis is that one must be born again albeit spiritually - as opposed to the "normal" earthly method of birth that we of the flesh all experience i.e. via the birth canal and its water. This confuses Nic, as he can relate only to a physical birthing and its water - and we only do that once.

In vs. 5 & 6, Jesus tells Nic that for those of the flesh (i.e. people), it takes BOTH "births" (the natural and the spiritual) to "see the kingdom of God."

To totally upset a majority here, know that this mitigates AGAINST any requirement for a "water baptism." We have entire denominations built upon the shifting sand of some physical "water baptism" as a requirement for whatever. THEY ARE WRONG.

In the earliest days of the church water baptism is taught as necessary. I have a choice to make, I can listen to the church fathers some who were disciples of the apostles or I can listen to you a rando on a "Christian" on a website

 

[Behold]

This from Tertullian notice the year, 203AD

Why does the MaryCult always try to deny the NT with teachings of their "Church Fathers'".
1500 yrs of this, and it just keeps on going.

 

[nedsk]

There's a huge disparity between what you are claiming to be true and what the Scriptures say. In fact it's polar opposite.

No the apostles couldnt cast out a demon so by your reasoning with Simon they have no ability to cast out demons. That's nonsensical

Why does the MaryCult always try to deny the NT with teachings of their "Church Fathers'".
1500 yrs of this, and it just keeps on going.

The church fathers taught the truth you teach beholdism

 

[mailmandan]

 

[Eternally Grateful]

View attachment 67956

this is all great

but even so. A separate birth in water in context of John 3, is far more realistic than water baptism, in the context of John 3.

so you have a double wammy against physical water baptism. which Jesus did not even mention in the whole conversation

 

[mailmandan]

this is all great

but even so. A separate birth in water in context of John 3, is far more realistic than water baptism, in the context of John 3.

so you have a double wammy against physical water baptism. which Jesus did not even mention in the whole conversation

For someone to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why does the MaryCult always try to deny the NT with teachings of their "Church Fathers'".
1500 yrs of this, and it just keeps on going.

LOL
Pretty funny Behold.
We've been through this.

The Apostolic Fathers were taught by THE APOSTLES.
It would be a good idea to read up on them....15 volumes worth.

The Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostolic Fathers.

After that...I lose interest due to the church aligning itself with state governments.

 

[GodsGrace]

View attachment 67956

You could make the post REALLY BIG MMD.
But the truth is that what you posted is only ONE of the four hypothesis.

And each one can be proven with scripture.
Ouch!

 

[mailmandan]

You could make the post REALLY BIG MMD.
But the truth is that what you posted is only ONE of the four hypothesis.

And each one can be proven with scripture.
Ouch!

Ouch indeed! I'm running for the tall grass as we speak.