WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[GodsGrace]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

 

[Hepzibah]

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:25-27

'Some scholars link the verse to Ezekiel 36:25-27, where God promises to cleanse his people with water and give them a new heart and spirit. This reinforces the idea of a spiritual transformation where God removes sin and replaces it with a new, God-centered nature.'

• I wonder if this is where water baptism came from, as a sign of Spirit baptism, rather than the common belief that it is connected to the flood .
  

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

The answer is none of the above. And the meaning of this verse is very simple. It involves the correct interpretation of the little Greek word "kai" which has mistakenly been translated as "AND" in this verse.

"Kai" can have various meanings. It can be used as a conjunction meaning "in addition to" (as many translations mistakenly interpret it in this case), OR it can also be used in an explanatory sense, meaning "namely" or "even", which is the case in this John 3:5 verse. In other words, this verse can justifiably be translated as follows: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water, NAMELY (kai) the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This identifies the "water" as being the equivalent of the "Spirit".

Do we have other texts which also indicate that this is so? Yes, we do, and in the words of Christ Himself in John 7:38-39 as He addressed the multitude on the last day of the feast. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

The evidence that one has been born of the Spirit is the presence of the "rivers of living water" that flow from the individual.

"WATER" = "THE SPIRIT" They are one and the same thing in John 3:5 and also in John 7:38-39.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:25-27

'Some scholars link the verse to Ezekiel 36:25-27, where God promises to cleanse his people with water and give them a new heart and spirit. This reinforces the idea of a spiritual transformation where God removes sin and replaces it with a new, God-centered nature.'

• I wonder if this is where water baptism came from, as a sign of Spirit baptism, rather than the common belief that it is connected to the flood .

I agree.
The flood is a type of shadow about baptism, but what you have posted makes much more sense.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 persons will be cleaned with water just as in the NT persons are cleansed from all sin.

Water is also used for physical cleansing:

2 Kings 5:10-14
10 Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean."
11 But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.'
12 "Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage.
13 Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much * more * then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean '?"
14 So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.


Jesus did the same:

John 9:5-7
5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
7 and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam " (which is translated, Sent ). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.


So water cleanses.
Just as John the Baptist baptized to cleanse from sin.

Thanks!

 

[GodsGrace]

The answer is none of the above. And the meaning of this verse is very simple. It involves the correct interpretation of the little Greek word "kai" which has mistakenly been translated as "AND" in this verse.

"Kai" can have various meanings. It can be used as a conjunction meaning "in addition to" (as many translations mistakenly interpret it in this case), OR it can also be used in an explanatory sense, meaning "namely" or "even", which is the case in this John 3:5 verse. In other words, this verse can justifiably be translated as follows: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water, NAMELY (kai) the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This identifies the "water" as being the equivalent of the "Spirit".

Understood.
But this presents a problem (maybe not).

I agree that kai can mean EVEN,,,which I would understand the verse in John 3.5 to mean unless one is born of WATER, WHICH IS SPIRIT,
he cannot enter the Kingdom.

IOW,,,Water and Spirit are the SAME.
The water IS the Spirit.
Correct?

So isn't saying that one must be born of water kai spirit saying spirit twice??
"one must be born of spirit which is spirit".

Do we have other texts which also indicate that this is so? Yes, we do, and in the words of Christ Himself in John 7:38-39 as He addressed the multitude on the last day of the feast. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

OK, agreed.

The evidence that one has been born of the Spirit is the presence of the "rivers of living water" that flow from the individual.

"WATER" = "THE SPIRIT" They are one and the same thing in John 3:5 and also in John 7:38-39.

I understand, but I think this is saying SPIRIT 2 times.

Please clarify.

PS or are you referring to baptism?

 

[3 Resurrections]

IOW,,,Water and Spirit are the SAME.
The water IS the Spirit.
Correct?

Yes, the "water" in John 3:5 and the "living water" in John 7:38-39 are both used as a symbolic metaphor for the Holy Spirit which dwells forever within a believer. It's just as Romans 8:11 tells us: "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." It does NOT say, "Now if any man never got water baptized, He is none of His." Of course, water baptism is a rite that professing Christians should perform as a testimony to others of their already-existing faith in Christ. But that act of baptism is not what initiates the birth of that individual into the family of God. That is the Holy Spirit's work alone, which Christ compared to the "living water" of a never-ending spring that comes to dwell within a person, and flows out from them, after they have been born of the Spirit.

Here is another example of how that little word "kai" should be used in an explanatory sense. Try Revelation 1:5-6. "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God AND (kai) his Father." This little word "kai" should be translated "...unto God, EVEN or NAMELY His Father". Otherwise, it sounds as if there is God, and then another additional God called the "Father" being spoken about.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, the "water" in John 3:5 and the "living water" in John 7:38-39 are both used as a symbolic metaphor for the Holy Spirit which dwells forever within a believer. It's just as Romans 8:11 tells us: "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." It does NOT say, "Now if any man never got water baptized, He is none of His." Of course, water baptism is a rite that professing Christians should perform as a testimony to others of their already-existing faith in Christ. But that act of baptism is not what initiates the birth of that individual into the family of God. That is the Holy Spirit's work alone, which Christ compared to the "living water" of a never-ending spring that comes to dwell within a person, and flows out from them, after they have been born of the Spirit.

Here is another example of how that little word "kai" should be used in an explanatory sense. Try Revelation 1:5-6. "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God AND (kai) his Father." This little word "kai" should be translated "...unto God, EVEN or NAMELY His Father". Otherwise, it sounds as if there is God, and then another additional God called the "Father" being spoken about.

Did you consider what I stated in my post?
Does this make John 3.5 sound as if Jesus is saying a person must be born of spirit and spirit??

Also, I'd like to add that John the Baptist stated that after him would come one that would baptize with FIRE and SPIRIT.
Jesus said to baptize all in the Great Commission.
Baptize has the word WATER in it.
So John's would be a baptism of forgiveness and Jesus' would be a baptism of Spirit.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Did you consider what I stated in my post?
Does this make John 3.5 sound as if Jesus is saying a person must be born of spirit and spirit??

No, it doesn't double up the word "spirit" two times. John was explaining that a person must be born of water EVEN (kai) of the Spirit, in order to see the kingdom of God. John was defining for us and his first-century audience exactly what he meant by using the word "water" in his own statement.

The strictly-observant Jews were always baptizing something or another: cups, pots, vessels, and even tables, and themselves every time they returned home from shopping in public. They had almost a water fetish in going overboard in their attempts to be super "clean" according to the law. John was taking that strict Jewish idolizing of "water" itself and giving it a new meaning - that is, making it a metaphor for the identity of the Holy Spirit, which was the only thing necessary for true holiness within.

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Dear GodsGrace,

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass.

The spirit word "water" in Christ's statement in John 3:5 represents the Early Rain of the Spirit.

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit and will give a person their faith and ability to believe that Jesus is the Christ. But since the Early Rain is given in "measure" (Joel 2:23), it will leave a new babe in Christ spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. In this condition, a babe will understand the teachings of the New Covenant in an outward & physical way. For that reason, physical water is used to symbolize the Early Rain of the Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Peter received in Mat 16:13-17. Because of the small measure of the Spirit indwelling Peter, Peter was able to recognize that Jesus was the Christ. This is also why Peter accepted Jesus as "Lord":

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The same is true of Paul. The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Paul received on the Damascus Road so that Paul could recognize that Jesus is the Christ. This is also why Paul accepted Jesus as "Lord" at that time (Acts 9:6).

The spirit word "Spirit" in Christ's statement in John 3:5 represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is also called the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Latter Rain is given in great measure. It will heal a babe's spiritual blindness and will transform their carnal mind into the mind of Christ. Judgment (Day of the Lord) will then immediately follow which will complete the babe's conversion. At this point, the babe becomes a little child and enters the Kingdom of Heaven where the law of sin & death can no longer accuse them.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Peter received the Latter Rain of the Spirit with the other Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost.

Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit in Damascus after being blind and unable to eat for three days.

James teaches the same truth of what it takes to be "born again" in the scripture below. But instead of using the birthing analogy as Christ did in John 3:5, James uses the farming analogy.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the Early (Water) and Latter (Spirit) Rain. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Joe

 

[nedsk]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Why would one need to believe the word water here means anything other than water? Why would someone use the word water if they meant something else? That would unnecessarily complicate things

 

[FaithWillDo]

Why would one need to believe the word water here means anything other than water? Why would someone use the word water if they meant something else? That would unnecessarily complicate things

Dear nedsk,
This is why:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ teaches using "spirit" words. Spirit words have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

The spirit word "water" represents the Holy Spirit. In physical form, it represents the Early Rain of the Spirit as I explained in my post.

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass.

The spirit word "water" in Christ's statement in John 3:5 represents the Early Rain of the Spirit.

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit and will give a person their faith and ability to believe that Jesus is the Christ. But since the Early Rain is given in "measure" (Joel 2:23), it will leave a new babe in Christ spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. In this condition, a babe will understand the teachings of the New Covenant in an outward & physical way. For that reason, physical water is used to symbolize the Early Rain of the Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Peter received in Mat 16:13-17. Because of the small measure of the Spirit indwelling Peter, Peter was able to recognize that Jesus was the Christ. This is also why Peter accepted Jesus as "Lord":

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The same is true of Paul. The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Paul received on the Damascus Road so that Paul could recognize that Jesus is the Christ. This is also why Paul accepted Jesus as "Lord" at that time (Acts 9:6).

The spirit word "Spirit" in Christ's statement in John 3:5 represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is also called the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Latter Rain is given in great measure. It will heal a babe's spiritual blindness and will transform their carnal mind into the mind of Christ. Judgment (Day of the Lord) will then immediately follow which will complete the babe's conversion. At this point, the babe becomes a little child and enters the Kingdom of Heaven where the law of sin & death can no longer accuse them.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Peter received the Latter Rain of the Spirit with the other Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost.

Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit in Damascus after being blind and unable to eat for three days.

James teaches the same truth of what it takes to be "born again" in the scripture below. But instead of using the birthing analogy as Christ did in John 3:5, James uses the farming analogy.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the Early (Water) and Latter (Spirit) Rain. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Joe

So now you need to explain what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is.
Is it the same as water baptism?
Does it happen at a different time than water baptism?

 

[nedsk]

Dear nedsk,
This is why:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ teaches using "spirit" words. Spirit words have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

The spirit word "water" represents the Holy Spirit. In physical form, it represents the Early Rain of the Spirit as I explained in my post.

Joe

Thank you but I don't think I entirely agree. First the use of the phrase "spirit"words??? Where did you get that? Where does Scripture say, the spirit word water represents the Holy Spirit? If God meant Holy Spirit why wouldn't he say Holy Spirit? So everytime I see the word water I need to know it represents the Holy Spirit?

 

[FaithWillDo]

So now you need to explain what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is.
Is it the same as water baptism?
Does it happen at a different time than water baptism?

Dear GodsGrace,
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is what the Jewish Elect received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the spiritual baptism that physical water baptism foreshadows. This concept applies: first comes the natural (Early Rain), then comes the spiritual (Latter Rain).

John the Baptist refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit below:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes to a babe after their time of waiting is complete. Their time of waiting begins after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is during this time of waiting that a believer is a "babe" who remains carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. The person will remain a babe until Christ returns to them and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism). This is when Christ brings salvation to the person:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, they can only see "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2) or as John says, they see Christ in the flesh. In other words, a babe can understand the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant but the spiritual work that Christ is doing under the New Covenant will be mostly veiled from their understanding. Mark 8:15-25 teaches this truth.

In the marriage analogy, a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit and becomes a virgin who is espoused to Christ. The virgin then begins a time of waiting for the Bridegroom to return. Just before the Bridegroom returns, Christ will give the virgin the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism). The Latter Rain will heal the believer's spiritual blindness. As a result, Christ will spiritually appear (His second coming) to the virgin. When He appears, Christ finds the virgin faithful and the wedding will occur. After the wedding, the marriage supper will occur where Christ feeds His new bride "truth" (bread & New Wine). After the bride has been spiritually strengthened, the baptism of Fire will occur. This is shown in Rev chapter 19. The baptism of Fire represents the Day of the Lord when Christ destroys all the "chaff" within the believer. The chaff are spiritual things that have made the person carnally minded and sinful. After this judgment is complete, the believer is converted and has entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

Look at it this way; when a person is given the Early Rain, they begin following Christ just as the Apostles did. The Latter Rain will come later after a time of waiting just as it did for the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. The Latter Rain is what gives a person a new birth. Salvation requires both the Early Rain (water) and the Latter Rain (Spirit).

Also, notice how Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints (Early Rain only/babes), with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Paul says that the Corinthians have been "called to be saints". They are not saints yet because they have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are babes who are waiting for Christ to return and pour out the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (confession of faith caused by the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire/conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (when all appear before Christ's White Throne).

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thank you but I don't think I entirely agree. First the use of the phrase "spirit"words??? Where did you get that? Where does Scripture say, the spirit word water represents the Holy Spirit? If God meant Holy Spirit why wouldn't he say Holy Spirit? So everytime I see the word water I need to know it represents the Holy Spirit?

Dear nedsk,
Here is why Christ teaches in His spiritual language:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (a language that uses spirit words) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (by Satan)

Since the death of Paul, all the babes in the churches have been devoured by the wolves.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Since the end of the 1st century, the churches of this world have been apostate - all of them. There are no exceptions.

Christ explains how and why a babe becomes apostate in the scripture below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

To understand what the spirit word "water" represents, you must compare how it is used in other scripture. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that comes from having the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain), the spiritual meaning can be discerned.

The words rain/water/dew/snow/flood are all referring to the Holy Spirit.

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would one need to believe the word water here means anything other than water? Why would someone use the word water if they meant something else? That would unnecessarily complicate things

Good question.
Here's why:

In John 3:4, after being told that a person must be born AGAIN....
he asks Jesus how a man can be born when he is old...
how a man can return to the womb and be born.
See also verse 6...what is born of the flesh is flesh...what is born of spirit is spirit.


When I read this I thought of natural birth.

And, besides, this, it helped me to understand the two births that are necessary for salvation.
One is to be born physically, of course.
And the other is to be born spiritually.

I can understand this as being two births,,,,one physical and one spiritual.

As I began to study scripture, I learned that some believe the water in John 3:5 to be the water of baptism.

Now, we have two members here that believe the word water means SPIRIT.

If that is so, then it would be akin to Jesus saying:
One must be born of spirit and spirit.

So I do have it narrowed down to either the water being physical birth or baptism.

Even the CC believes that we receive the Holy §Spirit at baptism.
So, ditto, wouldn't that be like saying we must be born again of spirit and spirit??


John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot * enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"


John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:6
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is what the Jewish Elect received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the spiritual baptism that physical water baptism foreshadows. This concept applies: first comes the natural (Early Rain), then comes the spiritual (Latter Rain).

John the Baptist refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit below:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

I agree.
So when Jesus sent out the 12 in Matthew 28:19 - the great commission - and He said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what did He mean?

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes to a babe after their time of waiting is complete. Their time of waiting begins after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is during this time of waiting that a believer is a "babe" who remains carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. The person will remain a babe until Christ returns to them and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism). This is when Christ brings salvation to the person:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, they can only see "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2) or as John says, they see Christ in the flesh. In other words, a babe can understand the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant but the spiritual work that Christ is doing under the New Covenant will be mostly veiled from their understanding. Mark 8:15-25 teaches this truth.

In the marriage analogy, a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit and becomes a virgin who is espoused to Christ. The virgin then begins a time of waiting for the Bridegroom to return. Just before the Bridegroom returns, Christ will give the virgin the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism). The Latter Rain will heal the believer's spiritual blindness. As a result, Christ will spiritually appear (His second coming) to the virgin. When He appears, Christ finds the virgin faithful and the wedding will occur. After the wedding, the marriage supper will occur where Christ feeds His new bride "truth" (bread & New Wine). After the bride has been spiritually strengthened, the baptism of Fire will occur. This is shown in Rev chapter 19. The baptism of Fire represents the Day of the Lord when Christ destroys all the "chaff" within the believer. The chaff are spiritual things that have made the person carnally minded and sinful. After this judgment is complete, the believer is converted and has entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

Look at it this way; when a person is given the Early Rain, they begin following Christ just as the Apostles did. The Latter Rain will come later after a time of waiting just as it did for the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. The Latter Rain is what gives a person a new birth. Salvation requires both the Early Rain (water) and the Latter Rain (Spirit).

Also, notice how Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints (Early Rain only/babes), with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Paul says that the Corinthians have been "called to be saints". They are not saints yet because they have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are babes who are waiting for Christ to return and pour out the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (confession of faith caused by the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire/conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (when all appear before Christ's White Throne).

Joe

I have to disagree on one point.
You said that 1 Cor 1:2 Paul is saying that the SAINTS are babes.

What does saint mean to you?
Saint just means a person that is set aside for service to God.

 

[nedsk]

Dear nedsk,
Here is why Christ teaches in His spiritual language:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (a language that uses spirit words) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (by Satan)

Since the death of Paul, all the babes in the churches have been devoured by the wolves.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Since the end of the 1st century, the churches of this world have been apostate - all of them. There are no exceptions.

Christ explains how and why a babe becomes apostate in the scripture below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

To understand what the spirit word "water" represents, you must compare how it is used in other scripture. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that comes from having the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain), the spiritual meaning can be discerned.

The words rain/water/dew/snow/flood are all referring to the Holy Spirit.

Joe

Lol.good talking with you

 

[FaithWillDo]

I agree.
So when Jesus sent out the 12 in Matthew 28:19 - the great commission - and He said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what did He mean?


I have to disagree on one point.
You said that 1 Cor 1:2 Paul is saying that the SAINTS are babes.

What does saint mean to you?
Saint just means a person that is set aside for service to God.

Dear GodsGrace,
You asked:
So when Jesus sent out the 12 in Matthew 28:19 - the great commission - and He said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what did He mean?

Christ is referring baptizing a person in water. Only Christ can spiritually baptize a person. Also, the name that we are to use to baptize a person in water is the name of Jesus. All the examples in the NT of water baptism use the name Jesus and not "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

You asked:
I have to disagree on one point.
You said that 1 Cor 1:2 Paul is saying that the SAINTS are babes.

What does saint mean to you?
Saint just means a person that is set aside for service to God.

Truth is taught "here a little and there a little". Here is a verse you must consider in order to understand what it means to be a saint:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

"Many" people in this world are "called to be a saint". They are called when they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. With only the Early Rain, they are "babes" who are not converted, nor has their elect status been confirmed (confirmed to be a saint). To be confirmed to be a saint, Christ must return to the babe before they physically die and pour out the Latter Rain. After He does, they are confirmed to be a saint.

Also, notice in Mat 24:14 that only a "few" of the "many" who are called have actually been chosen to be a saint. It is only a very small group of people who will be saved in this age. For this reason, the saints are said to be blessed.

As for a definition of the word "saint", it is referring to a person who has been chosen & converted and who will reign with Christ over the balance of unsaved mankind in the final age.

In the scripture below, Paul is talking about saints:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us (saints) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Finally, notice how Paul addresses his letter to the Ephesian church:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (converted/no longer babes) which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful (babes who only have the Early Rain/unconverted) in Christ Jesus:

Paul makes this same distinction between those who are unconverted babes and those who are converted saints in his letter to the Colossian church:

Col 1:2 To the saints (converted/both Early & Latter Rain) AND faithful brethren (called/babes/unconverted/Early Rain only) in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, when you read Heb 11 about the OT faithful, it says in verses 39 & 40 that they died in their faith but were not yet made perfect. Why? Because the baptism of the Holy Spirit was only given after Christ's resurrection. To be made perfect requires a person to be given the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain), followed by the baptism of Fire. This is conversion. The OT faithful had only received the Early Rain and that is why they were faithful but still not perfect (converted). This is also why Paul refers to the babes in the churches as being "faithful" and not saints.

Joe

 

[nedsk]

Good question.
Here's why:

In John 3:4, after being told that a person must be born AGAIN....
he asks Jesus how a man can be born when he is old...
how a man can return to the womb and be born.
See also verse 6...what is born of the flesh is flesh...what is born of spirit is spirit.


When I read this I thought of natural birth.

And, besides, this, it helped me to understand the two births that are necessary for salvation.
One is to be born physically, of course.
And the other is to be born spiritually.

I can understand this as being two births,,,,one physical and one spiritual.

As I began to study scripture, I learned that some believe the water in John 3:5 to be the water of baptism.

Now, we have two members here that believe the word water means SPIRIT.

If that is so, then it would be akin to Jesus saying:
One must be born of spirit and spirit.

So I do have it narrowed down to either the water being physical birth or baptism.

Even the CC believes that we receive the Holy §Spirit at baptism.
So, ditto, wouldn't that be like saying we must be born again of spirit and spirit??


John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot * enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"


John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:6
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Good question.
Here's why:

In John 3:4, after being told that a person must be born AGAIN....
he asks Jesus how a man can be born when he is old...
how a man can return to the womb and be born.
See also verse 6...what is born of the flesh is flesh...what is born of spirit is spirit.


When I read this I thought of natural birth.

And, besides, this, it helped me to understand the two births that are necessary for salvation.
One is to be born physically, of course.
And the other is to be born spiritually.

I can understand this as being two births,,,,one physical and one spiritual.

As I began to study scripture, I learned that some believe the water in John 3:5 to be the water of baptism.

Now, we have two members here that believe the word water means SPIRIT.

If that is so, then it would be akin to Jesus saying:
One must be born of spirit and spirit.

So I do have it narrowed down to either the water being physical birth or baptism.

Even the CC believes that we receive the Holy §Spirit at baptism.
So, ditto, wouldn't that be like saying we must be born again of spirit and spirit??


John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot * enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"


John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:6
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thar seems incomplete. I think of

This water prefigured baptism which now saves you. It does so not by washing away dirt from the body but by the pledge of a good conscience given too God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1Peter3:21). The water is the water but it represents more than just removing dirt from the body but because water does wash away dirt from the body that it makes a perfect representation of the spiritual cleansing of baptism.