WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[Truly]

What does the literal oceans have to do with New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven to Earth?

If you first thought is "nothing" then you will understand how it represents the nations and their end!

Why would Jesus use an example of a mountain being cast into the sea?

Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood

Which mount burns with fire? Sin-ai?

Mic 7:18 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Why are sins cast into the sea also?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Which is at the time of a new heaven and a new earth, or as Peter says

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherein dwelleth righteousness

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why would Jesus use an example of a mountain being cast into the sea?

Are you speaking to rev 8:8?

 

[Truly]

Are you speaking to rev 8:8?

No, that was in Mark, I added that other one underneath, in an attempt to gallish gallop?

Is that the term? I forget

My computer is super slow, and I dont know whats going on with it, so I am calling it a night.

Goodnight

 

[Hiddenthings]

No, that was in Mark, I added that other one underneath, in an attempt to gallish gallop?

Is that the term? I forget

My computer is super slow, and I dont know whats going on with it, so I am calling it a night.

Goodnight

It looks as though you are mixing up your references - Mark 11

"This mountain" i.e Olivet! The mountain becomes a symbol of evil or difficulty to be overcome. Mt of Olives became known as the “Mountain of corruption” 1 Kg 11:6-7, 11 Kg 23:13 and he will remove it! Zech 14:4

It's as though you have link together a bunch of references with all different context and meaning and daisy chained them together to produce what I don't know?

 

[Truly]

It looks as though you are mixing up your references - Mark 11

"This mountain" i.e Olivet! The mountain becomes a symbol of evil or difficulty to be overcome. Mt of Olives became known as the “Mountain of corruption” 1 Kg 11:6-7, 11 Kg 23:13 and he will remove it! Zech 14:4

It's as though you have link together a bunch of references with all different context and meaning and daisy chained them together to produce what I don't know?

My puter snapped back, yes, that is what I meant by gallish galloping but the term is spelled "Gish galloping" I forgot how to spell it and couldnt access the correct spelling earlier.

Gish galloping is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by presenting an excessive number of arguments, often with little regard for their accuracy

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

When I think of water I think of the flood where only a few were saved. 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
^what hope is there in that?

To me that is consistent with what the law could not do, which is it could not make any perfect. I have had the question for a long time concerning all those who perished outside of the ark made with hands. What was lacking? Being shut up (sealed) unto Him who would come after? What of the warning that if you have this worlds goods and shut up your bowels of compassion towards those without, how is the love of God in you?
What was absent? Hebrews 7:18-19 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

That is the question I ask about the ark made with hands. If it were perfect …Noah’s Ark made with hands then what need is there of that (Ark) made without hands, the work of God, the circumcision made of God without hands by Jesus Christ.

Water to me means being buried in the likeness of his death. That is what we say anyways that you go under the water whether one believes you are “sprinkled” or “submerged” it’s dying to the old ways and coming up or away being made without hands and of God, New.

Yet consider this …you must be born of water and Spirit. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
To me that says water is reconciled to God by the death of the Son, yet much more it’s not about the death of baptism made with hands but even more by the Life of the Son. Same as speaking concerning the glory:

• 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, [8] will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? (See, how if we have been reconciled by His death, how much more we are saved by His Life 2 Corinthians 4:17) [9] For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. [10] Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. [11] For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
• Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more(what is permanent), being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Significant to me is it’s not that God is joyful of the death of the Son, but joyful in “He Lives”! It’s supposed to be the putting off of death and putting on Newness of Life. When I first came here to the board I only saw Jesus as still hanging (nailed) on the cross. Until I saw He is no longer hanging on the cross but risen and alive.

Let’s no forget John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: [14] But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
When speaking of water…what water shall be in him a well of water springing up into …Life! It’s the Living Water. No?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When I think of water I think of the flood where only a few were saved. 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
^what hope is there in that?

To me that is consistent with what the law could not do, which is it could not make any perfect. I have had the question for a long time concerning all those who perished outside of the ark made with hands. What was lacking? Being shut up (sealed) unto Him who would come after? What of the warning that if you have this worlds goods and shut up your bowels of compassion towards those without, how is the love of God in you?
What was absent? Hebrews 7:18-19 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

That is the question I ask about the ark made with hands. If it were perfect …Noah’s Ark made with hands then what need is there of that (Ark) made without hands, the work of God, the circumcision made of God without hands by Jesus Christ.

Water to me means being buried in the likeness of his death. That is what we say anyways that you go under the water whether one believes you are “sprinkled” or “submerged” it’s dying to the old ways and coming up or away being made without hands and of God, New.

Yet consider this …you must be born of water and Spirit. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
To me that says water is reconciled to God by the death of the Son, yet much more it’s not about the death of baptism made with hands but even more by the Life of the Son. Same as speaking concerning the glory:

• 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, [8] will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? (See, how if we have been reconciled by His death, how much more we are saved by His Life 2 Corinthians 4:17) [9] For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. [10] Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. [11] For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
• Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more(what is permanent), being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Significant to me is it’s not that God is joyful of the death of the Son, but joyful in “He Lives”! It’s supposed to be the putting off of death and putting on Newness of Life. When I first came here to the board I only saw Jesus as still hanging (nailed) on the cross. Until I saw He is no longer hanging on the cross but risen and alive.

Let’s no forget John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: [14] But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
When speaking of water…what water shall be in him a well of water springing up into …Life! It’s the Living Water. No?

Just thinking about it also. If it’s no longer about the death which had glory, but about the Life of the Son which exceeds in Glory …then it helps I think with why Hebrews 6:1-3 urges…Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see it like this...

Water = Word of God
Living = Holy Spirit

Now combine the two:

Living Water = Word of God that is alive via the Holy Spirit. It is two in one.

That is the key to the whole thing. The Word of God always has the Spirit attached to it.



In other words, Water, i.e., the Word of God, contains the Spirit by default. Notice said Waters comes out the Father, not the Mother. It comes from His belly. Born again of the Father's Seed. Get it?

The Word is alive:



Again, it is two in one. If the Word of God, the Waters, is dead, then we have a problem.

If we keep going with this theme, then we see that John 1:1 is describing the Trinity:



Word was with God = 1st person of the Trinity
Word was God = 2nd person of the Trinity

But wait! Where is the 3rd person of the Trinity? It is there by default because every Christian knows that the Word is alive via the Holy Ghost.

The Trinity was there all along.

Remember, the Seed is the Word:



Who's Seed are we born from?



We must be born again of the Word, i.e., the Waters and the Spirit combined.

We must be born again of Abraham's Seed (Seed of the Father):



Jesus is Abraham's Seed. Masculine.

We must be born of God:



Now you see that we must be born again of the masculine Water and Spirit.

How did Jesus get here?



Jesus came by Water and Blood. What does this mean?



The Word, i.e., the Waters, was made flesh.

The Word is the Voice which sounds like Many Waters:





As we can see, amniotic fluid is not the Voice and Word of God. The exegesis is clear.

Hi Exegesis,
Thanks for a very well thought-out post.

I have heard that the water in John 3:5 is the word of God and I really like how you put the whole argument together.
And, of course, I agree with much of what you've stated.

I just, personally, have it cut down to either the physical birth or baptism.

But, yes, some sholars believe as you do.

 

[GodsGrace]

WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

“OF” / “AND”… appear to a be challenge to put in context…

Regarding the “CONTEXT”…
BIRTH … of / “ON” Earth
RE-BIRTH…of / “IN-to” Heaven

I believe the “CONTEXT”, the WATER, is “medically” called ammoniac fluid / layman term water.

God CREATED manKIND… Reveals His CREATION…and (then) MADE / MAKES manKIND have particular “LIFE” forms.

The man was CREATED out of / from the Earth.
The Earth is Dry Land.
The Earth was brought forth out FROM Water.
Earth (dry land) is full of minerals / metals.
Earth is surrounded by Water.
Water permeates the inner Earth.

ManKind is sustained/ natural life, by, through, of minerals/ metals, contained in mans Food sources (herbs, plants, animals).

ManKinds, body (natural life), developing stage, is surrounded by water.
ManKinds, developed stage, is permeated with Water.
ManKinds, Revealed stage, Natural BIRTH is “parallel” to the Earth, coming forth from out of “Water”.

I believe Jesus’ Statement in John 3:5, is expressly in regard to establishing “a Required Condition”…
Regarding:
A specific BIRTH Required…
Before a “RE-BIRTH” shall Be “allowed/ performed / MADE / effected, By the Power of God”…
And “exclusively” BY the “condition” (Order / Way “OF” God) “Shall a ( human OR a so “called human” ) manKind of Being, Be given “the SEED of God”… by God, to effect Gods (Order and Way) for that “individual”… to ultimately BE Allowed to Enter Gods Kingdom.

From the Beginning of manKind…men have made discoveries…wowed their generations…used their discoveries for good and evil.
We are in a fast paced generation of technological discoveries… daily experiencing the “wows”…along with the “good and evils” of such discoveries.
Perhaps… As:
Good “wows” AND Evil “woes”??

So… we have experiments past, experiments in effect, in works…
Cloning, egg freezing, etc. AND technology to MAKE “human appearing machines…” that can fool the human eye.
Will these FAKE humans, blend into society, unknown, they are machines?
Will these FAKE humans, marry, “have” a family unit of “revealed “offsprings”?
Will these FAKE humans, be “CLERICS”, preaching their (perhaps good OR evil) pre- programed Scriptures”?

Are such a FAKE humans a possibility?
I say yes.

Will these FAKE humans…reproduce an offspring “Naturally born of Water”?
I say no.

Will such “FAKE” humans, be Allowed to enter, Gods Kingdom?
No.

Just sharing another possibility that may come to pass and warning.

Glory to God,
Taken

HI Taken....
Yes, I tend to agree with the physical.

As to the rest, I concur absolutely 100%.
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the future of mankind.
What will be we cannot know.
But the future looks too different to even contemplate at length...
and when I do I come away unhappy.
But the NATURE of mankind will never change.
It will only adapt to dealing with machines even more, maybe, than other humans.

 

[Behold]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot *

Its the "born of the spirit" that is how we enter the "KOG" which is how we "SEE IT.'
You can't SEE IT, unless you exist IN IT......as Born again spiritually, into it.

This is explained as being "IN Christ" and "ONE with God"....."seated in heavenly places".

or...>>"translated from darkness to LIGHT"...

Someone who is not born again Spiritually, has only the born of water birth..... which is the earth birth, when you are inside your mother and her water breaks and out you come, all wet.

Now Jesus tells us......you must be BORN......AGAIN.......... a 2nd Birthday.....that is to become "a new creation"... whereby the Spirit of God birth's the person's spirit as "one with God"...born again..."in Christ"

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think it is natural birth.

If we look at who Nicodemus was, Ruler, Teacher, Rabbi a member of the Sanhedrin the Jewish religious court, he was not only a Pharisee. He saw the miracles Jesus did. He clearly acknowledged Jesus was from God.

Was his view like other Pharisees who constantly found fault with Jesus, trying to trip Him up. So Nicodemus was of a different kind, but notice he said:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, WE know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

So who was the WE? The WE who believed that God was with this Jesus and not the devil incarnate.

It seems to me that he was indicating that there were a group who were secretly accepting what Jesus was saying, stuck in an awkward place, sending one of the group to make themselves known. Believers in fact.

Jesus told him that 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, showing that they are separate and cannot be mixed.

So an earthly birth cannot be in the same class as a spiritual birth, and born again means the same birth once again, which Nick asked about.

To be born again means the likewise birth repeated - born once more. A spiritual birthing which brings in the early rain spoken of recently here. The birth from the 'washing' of the Word, the first stage of the believers life, if he goes on to perfection that is.

I think that Nicodemus was already a believer and Jesus told him that another work of the Spirit was needed for him to be born again and saved. A carnal believer changed to a holy saint.

In fact he was according to the early church who to this day have a feast day for him.

Hi H,
OK
A second work of the spirit was needed.
But what was the first work of the spirit?
Are you saying it's the word of God?
You believe the word of God is the WATER in John 3:5?

 

[GodsGrace]

Its the "born of the spirit" that is how we enter the "KOG" which is how we "SEE IT.'
You can't SEE IT, unless you exist IN IT......as Born again spiritually, into it.

This is explained as being "IN Christ" and "ONE with God"....."seated in heavenly places".

or...>>"translated from darkness to LIGHT"...

Someone who is not born again Spiritually, has only the born of water birth..... which is the earth birth, when you are inside your mother and her water breaks and out you come, all wet.

Now Jesus tells us......you must be BORN......AGAIN.......... a 2nd Birthday.....that is to become "a new creation"... whereby the Spirit of God birth's the person's spirit as "one with God"...born again..."in Christ"

Hi Behold...
I do tend to agree with this interpretation.
Thanks for posting.
Hope you're OK.

 

[Hepzibah]

Hi H,
OK
A second work of the spirit was needed.
But what was the first work of the spirit?
Are you saying it's the word of God?
You believe the word of God is the WATER in John 3:5?

No. I think the first work of the Spirit was the confirmation of truth that He gives the person who first comes to Christ for forgiveness.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace @Exegesis

Look and SEE and BELIEVE the TRUTH from John 3:1-10 and from Genesis 3:15

unless
ἐὰν (ean)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 1437: If. From ei and an; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.

μή (mē)
Adverb
Strong's Greek 3361: Not, lest. A primary particle of qualified negation; not, lest; also (whereas ou expects an affirmative one) whether.

he is born
γεννηθῇ (gennēthē)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1080: From a variation of genos; to procreate; figuratively, to regenerate.

of
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

water
ὕδατος (hydatos) = this is where we get the word 'hydration' = literal WATER
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 5204: Water. And genitive case, hudatos, etc. From the base of huetos; water literally or figuratively.

I'm not intending for this thread to become argumentative.
Just looking for explanations for differing interpretations.

My belief is that it could be BAPTISM or PHYSICAL BIRTH.
I've always had a difficult time with this verse, but it doesn't warrant a debate.
The salvation of our soul is not at risk....

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I think the first work of the Spirit was the confirmation of truth that He gives the person who first comes to Christ for forgiveness.

So then WATER is the Spirit both times??

It seems to me that those that believe that WATER means SPIRIT are actually saying this:
John 3:5
one must be born of spirit and the spirit......

Am I wrong?


John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[PS95]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Hi GodsGrace!
It is being born of a woman (water) " That which is flesh is flesh".
and born again of the Spirit. "that which is spirit is spirit"

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Just thinking about it also. If it’s no longer about the death which had glory, but about the Life of the Son which exceeds in Glory …then it helps I think with why Hebrews 6:1-3 urges…Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit.

Hi Victory...
sorry for delay - was away a few days.
You posted some deep thoughts.
Going to leave this for tomorrow morning...too late here.
Soon...

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GodsGrace!
It is being born of a woman (water) " That which is flesh is flesh".
and born again of the Spirit. "that which is spirit is spirit"

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

This makes sense to me and will probably be my end belief.
Nicodemus even asked how he could go back into his mother's womb.
Jesus did not correct him but doubled down after telling N he must be born again.
Thanks!

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born again he cannot * see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot * enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Hepzibah]

So then WATER is the Spirit both times??

It seems to me that those that believe that WATER means SPIRIT are actually saying this:
John 3:5
one must be born of spirit and the spirit......

Am I wrong?


John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.

I will try to find again something I read recently about this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will try to find again something I read recently about this.

OK
But what do YOU believe it means??
tomorrow...