What Makes Ex-Christians Think They Once Were Christians?

[Jim B]

1 John 5:16-17 "If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. All unrighteousness[at] is sin, but there is sin not resulting in death."

John clearly states that there is a sin that results in death, i.e., separation from God.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Well as the scripture that @Stumpmaster posted in the OP does suggest people can fall away. Sad but true.

Yes, they can fall away. That doesn't mean God lets them go.

No one shall take them from my hand. No one includes ourselves.
The Prodigal parable.

 

[Nancy]

Well as the scripture that @Stumpmaster posted in the OP does suggest people can fall away. Sad but true.

These as well as several others say's to me that indeed, He can and does blot out names.

Hebrews 6:4-6
"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame."

If these shared in the Holy Spirit, they had to once have been saved.....?

 

[ButterflyJones]

These as well as several others say's to me that indeed, He can and does blot out names.

Hebrews 6:4-6
"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame."

If these shared in the Holy Spirit, they had to once have been saved.....?

Paul cannot contradict God. If Paul were to do so, we are to believe God.

Paul didn't say we can lose our salvation. Rather, if we are not eternally saved by Christ, then if we do fall away it would necessitate crucifying Jesus all over again should we return and repent. And that puts Jesus to public shame because the eternal life, eternal salvation good news his ood sealed was shameful false if he has to be crucified for our sins over and over again.

Crucifixion was shameful by Roman design, though they did not invent the punishment.
The condemned was crucified nude. And were left to suffer till their lungs filled with fluid due to the positioning of their arms and torso, so as to cause them to drown in their own lung fluid. This is often called dry drowning.

 

[Triumph1300]

Former Christians just like atheist forums, they're hostile.

You mean hostile like some Christians on this forum?
Haha I could not resist.

 

[Nancy]

Paul cannot contradict God. If Paul were to do so, we are to believe God.

Paul didn't say we can lose our salvation. Rather, if we are not eternally saved by Christ, then if we do fall away it would necessitate crucifying Jesus all over again should we return and repent. And that puts Jesus to public shame because the eternal life, eternal salvation good news his ood sealed was shameful false if he has to be crucified for our sins over and over again.

Crucifixion was shameful by Roman design, though they did not invent the punishment.
The condemned was crucified nude. And were left to suffer till their lungs filled with fluid due to the positioning of their arms and torso, so as to cause them to drown in their own lung fluid. This is often called dry drowning.

Thank you for your response. Yes, I do well know what crucifixion does to a human body and that they eventually, drown in lung fluid. And yes, the shame also of being nude was a Roman thing.

We will have to disagree, hopefully peacefully
Perseverance of the saints is what the "P" in reformed theology stands for.
Just the word itself says it all to me!
It, in actuality is saying one has to keep themselves saved through works. Which fully nullifies the cross, IMHO.

per·se·ver·ance
[ˌpərsəˈvirəns]

NOUN

1. persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success:
   "His perseverance with the technique illustrates his single-mindedness" · "medicine is a field which requires dedication and perseverance."

 

[ButterflyJones]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I do well know what crucifixion does to a human body and that they eventually, drown in lung fluid. And yes, the shame also of being nude was a Roman thing.

We will have to disagree, hopefully peacefully
Perseverance of the saints is what the "P" in reformed theology stands for.
Just the word itself says it all to me!
It, in actuality is saying one has to keep themselves saved through works. Which fully nullifies the cross, IMHO.

per·se·ver·ance
[ˌpərsəˈvirəns]

NOUN

1. persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success:
   "His perseverance with the technique illustrates his single-mindedness" · "medicine is a field which requires dedication and perseverance."

No conflict in the least. I've never stated we have to keep our salvation through works.

 

[Nancy]

No conflict in the least. I've never stated we have to keep our salvation through works.

Oh, I know you didn't. I used to believe in it, but have come across other verses that say different...to me that is It's not a thing other than some who are weak in the faith could perhaps sit on their laurels, not pressing on but, "to be satisfied with past success and do nothing to achieve further success." M.W.

 

[Stumpmaster]

The vibe metaphor

Great typo.

 

[Stumpmaster]

As a wise brother simply put it, "I do not believe that God has the power to save you, but then has not the power to keep you. "

Sigh. The topic is those who fall away, not those who stay.

The focus is on those who

• were once enlightened,
• tasted the heavenly gift,
• became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• were in Christ as branches of the Vine,
• were sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

but did not

• hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end,
• become partakers of Christ by holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end,
• continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

but

• moved away from the hope of the gospel,
• drifted away from the Word they heard,
• after they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they were again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end being worse for them than the beginning.
  ​

IS THEIR APOSTASY THEIR CHOICE?

 

[quietthinker]

What Makes Ex-Christians Think They Once Were Christians?​

Does a label make anybody anything?

 

[ButterflyJones]

Sigh. The topic is those who fall away, not those who stay.

The focus is on those who

• were once enlightened,
• tasted the heavenly gift,
• became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• were in Christ as branches of the Vine,
• were sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

but did not

• hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end,
• become partakers of Christ by holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end,
• continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

but

• moved away from the hope of the gospel,
• drifted away from the Word they heard,
• after they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they were again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end being worse for them than the beginning.​

IS THEIR APOSTASY THEIR CHOICE?

No blood bought grace and faith saved person ,through God's gift, is ever not eternally saved. No matter what.
A truly saved person may fall away. However, God never lets them go.

 

[Keturah]

Sigh. The topic is those who fall away, not those who stay.

The focus is on those who

• were once enlightened,
• tasted the heavenly gift,
• became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• were in Christ as branches of the Vine,
• were sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

but did not

• hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end,
• become partakers of Christ by holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end,
• continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

but

• moved away from the hope of the gospel,
• drifted away from the Word they heard,
• after they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they were again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end being worse for them than the beginning.​

IS THEIR APOSTASY THEIR CHOICE?

Brother, apostasy means to renounce beliefs, correct?

If a person  believes they have free will & choose to accept God's grace when the Holy Spirit convicted them of the sinful nature of their fallen state, then why would anyone think that God would then hold them hostage to those beliefs?

Is it not of our free will by which we choose to believe on Jesus ?
Is Salvation not a gift?

I like the way you have the process out-lined above

The focus is on those who

• were once enlightened,
• tasted the heavenly gift,
• became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• were in Christ as branches of the Vine,
• were sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

but did not

• hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end,
• become partakers of Christ by holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end,
• continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

but

moved away from the hope of the gospel,
drifted away from the Word they heard,
after they escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they were again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end being worse for them than the beginning.

The first those who; .......with the actions of the Spirit who created a new creation & the blessings that come with.
Is it not in his word that we can resist, & quench the Holy Spirit in our lives?

The second but did not.......puts responsibility upon the account of the believer & follower, correct?

Too many lack spiritual understanding in dividing the truths of the word.....oh yeah they want what God offers but want none of the responsibility of the " gift of salvation".

Seems as though there are a great many lazy / slothful Christians today! Just as in discussion , they want you to give them the scriptures. When in fact if they were rightly dividing the word in studying to show themselves approved of God, the Spirit would bring them back to remembrance of the word taken in.....correct?

Then what we come to is your last but........bc they are lazy & slothful and EXPECT GOD TO DO IT ALL they move away from, the leading of the Spirit, the continuance of feasting @ his word, prayer, obedience; being NEITHER HEARERS NOR DOERS OF THE WORD OF GOD!

Instead of spiritual maturity we have stunted infantile babes either with a "failure to thrive" or stillborn which equals death.

Who are we to adversely use the word to condemn another's standing b4 God, calling them of broken faith, lacking understanding or worse having doctrines of demons!

NOT ONE PERSON HERE IS PERFECT( although there are some whom claim such) AND W/ O SIN ( we see them sinning all the time in arrogance, pride, anger, blatant contempt...... yet they are BLIND TO THEIR OWN FAULTS!

We do not know the limits in another person's life or what may have them in the valley of indecision, yet we push them right over into the abyss.

I say this inward to myself as well for I CANNOT CLAIM TO WALK IN THE SPIRIT 24/7,365 as some do !

 

[ButterflyJones]

Brother, apostasy means to renounce beliefs, correct?

If a person  believes they have free will & choose to accept God's grace when the Holy Spirit convicted them of the sinful nature of their fallen state, then why would anyone think that God would then hold them hostage to those beliefs?

Is it not of our free will by which we choose to believe on Jesus ?
Is Salvation not a gift?

I like the way you have the process out-lined above

The focus is on those who

• were once enlightened,
• tasted the heavenly gift,
• became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• were in Christ as branches of the Vine,
• were sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

but did not

• hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end,
• become partakers of Christ by holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end,
• continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

but

moved away from the hope of the gospel,
drifted away from the Word they heard,
after they escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they were again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end being worse for them than the beginning.

The first those who; .......with the actions of the Spirit who created a new creation & the blessings that come with.
Is it not in his word that we can resist, & quench the Holy Spirit in our lives?

The second but did not.......puts responsibility upon the account of the believer & follower, correct?

Too many lack spiritual understanding in dividing the truths of the word.....oh yeah they want what God offers but want none of the responsibility of the " gift of salvation".

Seems as though there are a great many lazy / slothful Christians today! Just as in discussion , they want you to give them the scriptures. When in fact if they were rightly dividing the word in studying to show themselves approved of God, the Spirit would bring them back to remembrance of the word taken in.....correct?

Then what we come to is your last but........bc they are lazy & slothful and EXPECT GOD TO DO IT ALL they move away from, the leading of the Spirit, the continuance of feasting @ his word, prayer, obedience; being NEITHER HEARERS NOR DOERS OF THE WORD OF GOD!

Instead of spiritual maturity we have stunted infantile babes either with a "failure to thrive" or stillborn which equals death.

Who are we to adversely use the word to condemn another's standing b4 God, calling them of broken faith, lacking understanding or worse having doctrines of demons!

NOT ONE PERSON HERE IS PERFECT( although there are some whom claim such) AND W/ O SIN ( we see them sinning all the time in arrogance, pride, anger, blatant contempt...... yet they are BLIND TO THEIR OWN FAULTS!

We do not know the limits in another person's life or what may have them in the valley of indecision, yet we push them right over into the abyss.

I say this inward to myself as well for I CANNOT CLAIM TO WALK IN THE SPIRIT 24/7,365 as some do !

We choose Jesus by our free will?

 

[Keturah]

Continued:
Then we have those who claim to not hold to mans interpretations,traditions & theology but yet that is what comes out every time they are cornered!

Luther, Calvin or even yet their denominal doctrines they cling more tightly to than the whole of God's word!

I'll leave you to it then, blessings @Stumpmaster

 

[Stumpmaster]

We choose Jesus by our free will?

In John 15 God decides which branches of the Vine to cut off, but branches which fail to abide in the Vine do so of their own volition.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Joh 15:4-7 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. (5) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

 

[Stumpmaster]

What Makes Ex-Christians Think They Once Were Christians?​

Does a label make anybody anything?

Hopefully not ashamed . . .
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

 

[Taken]

Hey Stumpmaster,
When I read this part: "and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit." What I see here, is that you can be saved and yet get drawn back into the world. If they were not saved to begin with, how could they have been "partakers of the Holy Spirit"?
I was once a believer in OSAS but, not anymore, wish it were truth! To me, it's not.

A partaker of the Holy Spirit, is a person who has or is receiving a blessing from God. (Because of Gods Grace).

People who receive blessings from God ARE:
1) Unknowing…(non-believers, who have not yet heard)
2) Atheists….(have heard but are non-believers)
3) Believers…(in God)
4) Believers….(in Christ Jesus and God)
5) Converted…(Believers in God Saved IN Christ)

Point being, ALL persons receive blessings from God. That is Gods Grace, Gods Works.

Point is NOT ALL persons acknowledge their good fortune IS a blessing from God. That is the individuals persons Acknowledgement (and Response) to Gods Grace…or Not.

1) The unknowing will be Thankful to the person or circumstance or luck for their good fortune.
2) The Atheist will be Thankful to the person or circumstance or luck for their good fortune.
3) The believer in God will be Thankful to God for their good fortune.
4) The Believer in God and Christ Jesus will be Thankful to God and Christ Jesus. UNTIL …
1) they are faced with traumatic circumstances…(Tribulations caused by men, hardships, loss of possessions, loss of loved ones, etc. )
2) they begin being enamored with worldly things and ignore God.
3) they begin lending their ear to anti-God’s, anti-Christ’s and begin “considering” their words, proposals…(ie falling into temptations).

Every naturally new born person, is without knowledge of the Lord God.
Every Atheist, God Believer, Christ Jesus Believer IS ALIVE IN the WORLD and SUBJECTED TO the WORLD and at ANY TIME can BECOME SUBJECTED TO a crossing paths with a TEMPTER.

The ONE Glaring Difference OF HOW an individual person REACTS to a Tempter….IS:
By, Through, Of…WHAT that individual person HAS “made a commitment TO”.

In other words:
* BELIEF, is “one thing”…and CAN Change at ANY Time, as the individual Decides.
* COMMITMENT, is “another thing” of ones BELIEF To the Lord God, IS Permanent.

A mans BELIEF, is Kept by his OWN willpower. (And CAN change according to the mans willpower.)
A mans COMMITTED BELIEF, is Kept by Gods Power. (And CAN NEVER change according to Gods Power.)

Human men and woman make “forever” promises to be faithfully one with the other, by, through, of a “marriage”.
It’s a “practice”, between people, in preparation for an individual to test themselves in keeping their vowed / pledged commitments. Some succeed, Some separate, Some divorce.
The Point is: ONCE an individual MAKES a True and Faithful COMMITMENT to the Lord God…it IS FOREVER. No separation, No divorce, Never one without the other…by, through, of the Power of God.

Converted, Committed, IS NOT the meaning of the word “Christian”. A Christian is a believer IN God, IN Christ, following His Teachings. A man CAN, and many HAVE, stopped believing IN God, IN Christ, and STOPPED believing and STOPPED following His Teachings, and they are called “Having TASTED the blessings of the Holy Spirit, and Have fallen From GRACE.”

The GRACE they have “fallen FROM”, is to Receive the Blessing from God OF SALVATION of their soul”.
^^ That does NOT prevent God from giving whom He will other Blessings.

OSAS is not about BELIEF ONLY.
OSAS IS about Heartfully TRUE Committed Belief, that is Accomplished, By, through, of the Works/Conversion/Reconciliation of the POWER of God and KEPT Forever By the Power of God …. IN that individual.

Remember, Conversion requires a man to willingly GIVE his Word and his Body unto death FOR the Lord God and to Receive Gods Gift of Salvation of his soul.

A Physically Dead man can not CHANGE his commitment.
A man “Crucified” with Christ is a man who, is making a living sacrifice / vow, pledge of his body unto Death FOR the Lord God, and can not CHANGE his commitment.

OSAS is not solely about BELIEF, but rather about Committed Belief and Conversion that can not become undone.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ButterflyJones]

In John 15 God decides which branches of the Vine to cut off, but branches which fail to abide in the Vine do so of their own volition.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Joh 15:4-7 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. (5) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Those do not answer my question.

 

[Taken]

Sigh. The topic is those who fall away, not those who stay.

The focus is on those who

• were once enlightened,
• tasted the heavenly gift,
• became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• were in Christ as branches of the Vine,
• were sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

but did not

• hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end,
• become partakers of Christ by holding the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end,
• continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

but

• moved away from the hope of the gospel,
• drifted away from the Word they heard,
• after they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they were again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end being worse for them than the beginning.​

IS THEIR APOSTASY THEIR CHOICE?

You have a person being Converted AND thus Soul Saved, “falling away”.

Believers, Followers CAN fall away.
THEY are NOT committed.
THEY have NOT yielded to Gods Power.
THEY are still directed by their Own Power.

The Converted IN Christ, CAN NOT fall away.
They ARE committed.
They HAVE yielded to Gods Power.
THEY ARE kept with God Forever, by, through, of Gods Power.

Glory to God,
Taken