What was the Purpose of Jesus' Baptism?

[Aunty Jane]

If we have identified with Christ's death and burial, we will also identify with His resurrection. Just as God raised Christ from death, so we should rise from repentance and water baptism to walk in newness of life. The verse is not speaking merely of future bodily resurrection after physical death, but of new life now. We receive this newness of life through the indwelling of Christ's Holy Spirit....

We do indeed begin a new "walk" the day we dedicate our lives to the service of God, and follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ.
I would question the last part of your statement there however....."We receive this newness of life through the indwelling of Christ's Holy Spirit" ....since when does Christ have a holy spirit? It is God's spirit which Jesus is authorized to give to others to empower them or to anoint them for a future role in the incoming Kingdom of God.

If you recall that the apostles had that ability to pass the power of holy spirit onto others by the laying on of hands. Jesus passed it on to them and they in turn passed it on to others......but it was never the spirit of Christ....it was the operation of God's spirit, given for a time and a reason.

After the apostolic period ended, the operation of God's spirit was not readily seen until the "time of the end" when God was to 'cleanse, refine and purify' a people who would carry out the work that Jesus assigned to them. An 'abundance of knowledge' would be available at this time, but not all would be happy to partake of it since it exposed the early church teachings as fraudulent. The wicked would cling to the old ways and refuse to be cleansed of the pollution that had invaded the church in those early centuries. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

The negative aspect of conversion is death to sin, which is symbolized and completed by burial with Christ in water baptism. The positive aspect of conversion is new life in Christ, which we receive by the Holy Spirit.

All those who received the holy spirit in those early days were of the "elect".....chosen by God for a role that would take them from the earth and give them a new birth to spirit life in heaven. (Revelation 20:6) Not all who accepted Christ as Messiah were chosen for that role.
In 1 Corinthians 1:2 Paul wrote to..."to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours".
There are clearly two groups mentioned there but the same Lord of both. Those not chosen to be "saints" or "holy ones" are still Christ's followers but do not have what Paul described as "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1)

Please explain what you mean.

My position is, the Holy Spirit is Almighty God's very own SPIRIT. And, is also the Spirit of Christ.

It is God's spirit....but I know of no scripture where it is ever said to be the spirit of Christ. Do you have a reference?

Genesis 1:2 "...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Yes, it was the same holy spirit from the beginning....God's power directed to whomever and wherever he deemed it necessary. It is also given in due measure as we see from the account of Moses when he was despairing of the burden of caring for so many people after the liberation from Egypt.
Numbers 11:16-17...
"Then the Lord said to Moses, “Gather for me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you. 17 And I will come down and talk with you there. And I will take some of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them, and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you may not bear it yourself alone."
"Some" of the holy spirit was taken from Moses and distributed equally among the seventy helpers.

John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Or in a more modern version.....
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (ESV)
In Greek the "Spirit of the Truth" is not a "him" but is neuter gender making the Spirit an "it".
In the NABRE it says in the footnote of John 14:17...."The Spirit of truth: this term is also used at Qumran, where it is a moral force put into a person by God. . . . It is more personal in John; it will teach the realities of the new order (Jn 14:26), and testify to the truth (Jn 14:6). While it has been customary to use masculine personal pronouns in English for the Advocate, the Greek word for “spirit” is neuter, and the Greek text and manuscript variants fluctuate between masculine and neuter pronouns."
Neuter words require neuter pronouns.

 

[Deborah_]

I would question the last part of your statement there however....."We receive this newness of life through the indwelling of Christ's Holy Spirit" ....since when does Christ have a holy spirit? It is God's spirit which Jesus is authorized to give to others to empower them or to anoint them for a future role in the incoming Kingdom of God.

In Romans 8:9, Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ:
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."
Interesting that he uses the titles 'Spirit of God' and 'Spirit of Christ' interchangeably - they are not two separate spirits, but one and the same.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In Romans 8:9, Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ:
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."
Interesting that he uses the titles 'Spirit of God' and 'Spirit of Christ' interchangeably - they are not two separate spirits, but one and the same.

Thank you....but reading that in context puts a different slant on what is implied when you just read verse 9 alone.

"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit. 6 For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; 7 because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you."

Contrasting the flesh with the spirit, I don't believe verse 9 is interchanging them at all.... Christ's spirit here I believe is his example of how to conduct yourself when God's spirit truly dwells in a person, like it did in Christ. We are to imitate that spirit.

 

[Truther]

This is a question from another thread which I believe deserves a thread of its own.

Baptism by full immersion in the Jordan River was first carried out by John the Baptist for the Jews who had transgressed the Law. (Luke 3:3) It was a public symbol of their repentance and John B had been sent ahead of the Messiah to "prepare the way" (Luke 1:76-77) so those who submitted to John's baptism demonstrated that they were in the right frame of mind and heart to accept the Messiah's teachings. (Luke 1:16-17)
John's baptism was not to be permanent however, as he said that the one coming after him would go on increasing, whilst his work was decreasing. (John 3:30)

There is no record of baptism being a Jewish practice up until then, so it was a new concept to them.

The Greek word for baptize is "baptō" which means "to dip...or immerse"....so no sprinkling of water will ever baptize anyone because of what full immersion baptism symbolizes.

Jesus came to John at the river to present himself for baptism. John at first was hesitant because he had been baptizing in symbol of repentance for sins committed, but Jesus was sinless and John knew it. He told Jesus that he was the one who needed to be baptized by him. But Jesus said: “Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.” (Matthew 3:13-15)

The baptism of Jesus therefore, must have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John’s baptism, as Jesus “committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.” (1 Peter 2:22) So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance, since he had nothing over which to repent. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus.

So the questions open for discussion are....what was the purpose of Jesus' baptism?
Why did it need to be full immersion?
And how does Christian baptism differ from what John B performed?
Thoughts....?

Jesus was baptized to fulfill the laver portion of the tabernacle.
He instituted baptism in his own (Jesus')name upon the initial outpouring of his Spirit at Acts 2, when Peter commanded all sinners to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins(Acts 2:38).

 

[Deborah_]

In Greek the "Spirit of the Truth" is not a "him" but is neuter gender making the Spirit an "it".
In the NABRE it says in the footnote of John 14:17...."The Spirit of truth: this term is also used at Qumran, where it is a moral force put into a person by God. . . . It is more personal in John; it will teach the realities of the new order (Jn 14:26), and testify to the truth (Jn 14:6). While it has been customary to use masculine personal pronouns in English for the Advocate, the Greek word for “spirit” is neuter, and the Greek text and manuscript variants fluctuate between masculine and neuter pronouns."
Neuter words require neuter pronouns.

"Neuter words require neuter pronouns" - very true, but the gender of the word doesn't necessarily match the gender of what it refers to. In many languages the word for "child" is neuter - grammatically one should use a neuter pronoun, but in practice, if the child's gender is known (it isn't always) it's common to use 'he' or 'she'. Since 'pneuma' in Greek is a neuter word, the use of a neuter pronoun is purely grammatical and doesn't 'disprove' the personality of the Spirit of God. The fact that the masculine pronoun is also often used suggests (though doesn't prove) that the writer thought of the Spirit as 'he'. So it's perfectly legitimate to use 'he' in the English translation.

Incidentally, the word for 'spirit' in Hebrew is feminine - which goes to show that grammatical gender is really an irrelevance. The Spirit Himself hasn't changed gender from 'she' to 'it' between the Old and New Testaments!

 

[Deborah_]

Thank you....but reading that in context puts a different slant on what is implied when you just read verse 9 alone.

"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit. 6 For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; 7 because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you."

Contrasting the flesh with the spirit, I don't believe verse 9 is interchanging them at all.... Christ's spirit here I believe is his example of how to conduct yourself when God's spirit truly dwells in a person, like it did in Christ. We are to imitate that spirit.

But anyone, of any religion (or none), can imitate the "spirit" of Christ in that sense - and many non-Christians (having great respect for Jesus' ethical teaching) do just that. That can't be what Paul is talking about.
Go back through Romans a bit further, and in chapter 5 Paul says that "the Holy Spirit has been given to us" (Romans 5:5) This is the Spirit that he refers to constantly throughout chapter 8, the Spirit with whom we are 'sealed' when we believe in Jesus (Ephesians 1:13). If you think that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are all different entities (in which case we have all three of them 'in' us, not just one!) his argument becomes utterly confusing.

 

[user]

We are much better equipped to understand those original languages now and technology provides a wide distribution of that knowledge, so there is no excuse to cling to outdated Bibles because they say what people want to believe.

Many later versions have omitted entire passages, and have changed God's Word and/or taken from God's Word.

For example, take the NIV and turn to Matthew 17:21 ... not there? That's Ok, we can read it in the KJV.

 

[user]

Jesus was baptized to fulfill the laver portion of the tabernacle.
He instituted baptism in his own (Jesus')name upon the initial outpouring of his Spirit at Acts 2, when Peter commanded all sinners to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins(Acts 2:38).

Great comparison O.T. and New!

Exodus 30:20 "When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not..."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

 

[Behold]

The baptism of Jesus therefore, must have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John’s baptism,

Jesus, who is God become one of us, a MAN, virgin born.....>"under the law" had to "fulfill all righteousness", as a Man born under the law, according to the OT reqirements.
And one of those was to be baptized in water.
He did NOT do this because of sin he was repenting of, as Jesus died on the Cross , SINLESS, yet bearing the sin of the World.
In other words, there was no sin found IN HIM< but our sins were laid ON HIM...and that body of sin was sacrificed for YOUR SIN.

John 3:16

 

[Truther]

Great comparison O.T. and New!

Exodus 30:20 "When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not..."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

Exactly.

Without baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, one must die eternally with all their sins as they don't fulfill their own part of the tabernacle.

The priest washed, Jesus washed and we wash.

No skipping this process.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Go back through Romans a bit further, and in chapter 5 Paul says that "the Holy Spirit has been given to us" (Romans 5:5) This is the Spirit that he refers to constantly throughout chapter 8, the Spirit with whom we are 'sealed' when we believe in Jesus (Ephesians 1:13). If you think that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are all different entities (in which case we have all three of them 'in' us, not just one!) his argument becomes utterly confusing.

What is the meaning of the word “spirit” in the Bible?

The Greek pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,” hence we have words in English that reflect that...pneumatic or pneumonia....both are applicable to air or breath.

The Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.
There are several meanings and ways in which this world is used in the both parts of accepted scripture......
All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

This word can mean....wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s own spirit or dominant personality; spirit beings; (including God and his angelic creatures) and God’s active force, or holy spirit.

I do not believe that the “holy spirit” is a “person”....it is the exercise of God’s power, directed to whomever and wherever he purposed for it to accomplish his will. So in saying “with whom we are sealed”, I would suggest “with which we are sealed” is more correct.

It is this spirit which “seals” God’s elect, anointing them for life in heaven. But becoming a Christian does not automatically mean that one is chosen to go to heaven. There were those even in the first century who did not receive the “heavenly calling” as “saints” or "holy ones". (Hebrews 3:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2) They all had the same Lord Jesus in common, but two different roles and two different destines.

“The spirit of God” that was spoken about in the Genesis creation account is the exercise of God’s immense power directed toward his creation.

“The spirit of Christ” is the dynamic personality that motivated the man Jesus Christ. We are told that he was a role model for us. (1 Peter 2:21)

So if you believe that the 'holy spirit', 'the spirit of God', or 'the spirit of Christ' are separate conscious entities, it makes for very confused understanding, trying to figure it out.

Holy spirit as presented in the Bible as something that empowers people to do extraordinary things. Even Jesus did not have the ability to perform miracles until he received the holy spirit after his baptism.

Ephesians 1, in context again does not portray the spirit as an entity.
Ephesians 1:9-14....Mounce Interlinear....
“He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring everything together in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we, who have already set our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. You also are in him, having heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation; in him also, when you believed, you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance vouching for God’s redemption of his possession, to the praise of his glory.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

Many later versions have omitted entire passages, and have changed God's Word and/or taken from God's Word.

Are you sure about that? Are you a Greek or Hebrew scholar?
What if its the KJV and other versions who used the same manuscripts that are in error ?

For example, take the NIV and turn to Matthew 17:21 ... not there? That's Ok, we can read it in the KJV.

I hope you understand why Matthew 17:21 was omitted from a few later versions....not just the NIV?

In the late 19th century, scholars B. F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort compared existing Bible manuscripts and fragments as they prepared the Greek master text that they felt most closely reflected the original writings. Master texts such as those by Nestle and Aland and by the United Bible Societies reflect recent scholarly studies, so these would also serve that purpose.

Based on those master texts, it is evident that some verses of the Christian Greek Scriptures found in older translations, such as the King James Version, were actually additions made by later copyists and were never part of the inspired Scriptures. However, because the verse division generally accepted in Bible translations was already established in the 16th century, the omission of these verses now creates gaps in the verse numbering in most Bibles. Based on that information, I am afraid that you may have been misled on that score.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

The priest washed, Jesus washed and we wash.

No skipping this process.

The ceremonial washing of the priests and the baptism of Jesus Christ are not the same at all.
It is not the act of going under the water that cleanses us from sin.....because it is the blood of Christ that accomplishes that.
1 John 1:7...
"but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

The ceremonial washing was about physical cleanliness that was required of those ministering at the Temple. Spiritual cleanliness was mirrored by physical cleanliness.

The apostle Peter spoke of what baptism represented.
1 Peter 3:21...
"....baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".
A good conscience is one that is cleansed by the sin-atoning value of Christ's sacrifice. That is what provides forgiveness for anything we have done wrong in the past, so our conscience should not trouble us in our moving forward in a new course of life.

So baptism is not a washing away of sins.....it is an act of dedication for one who chooses to accept Jesus sacrifice, and a promise to fulfill all the requirements that God's word says is necessary for one who is a 'footstep follower of Jesus Christ'.

 

[Truther]

The ceremonial washing of the priests and the baptism of Jesus Christ are not the same at all.
It is not the act of going under the water that cleanses us from sin.....because it is the blood of Christ that accomplishes that.
1 John 1:7...
"but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

The ceremonial washing was about physical cleanliness that was required of those ministering at the Temple. Spiritual cleanliness was mirrored by physical cleanliness.

The apostle Peter spoke of what baptism represented.
1 Peter 3:21...
"....baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".
A good conscience is one that is cleansed by the sin-atoning value of Christ's sacrifice. That is what provides forgiveness for anything we have done wrong in the past, so our conscience should not trouble us in our moving forward in a new course of life.

So baptism is not a washing away of sins.....it is an act of dedication for one who chooses to accept Jesus sacrifice, and a promise to fulfill all the requirements that God's word says is necessary for one who is a 'footstep follower of Jesus Christ'.

A good conscience is made from remission of our sins via baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, AKA, washing away our sins as was told Paul...

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


You see, there is no other way to wash away our sins.

 

[Deborah_]

I do not believe that the “holy spirit” is a “person”....it is the exercise of God’s power, directed to whomever and wherever he purposed for it to accomplish his will. So in saying “with whom we are sealed”, I would suggest “with which we are sealed” is more correct.

But since I personally am convinced that the Holy Spirit IS personal (better than saying "a person"), I shall continue to refer to Him with personal pronouns.

 

[user]

I do not believe that the “holy spirit” is a “person”

The Holy Spirit is Father himself.
Jesus is the Father manifest in the flesh.
Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

 

[Behold]

No skipping this process.

The city water supply is your savior?
Is that right Truther?

Listen, If water could save you, then we'd all be saved when we took a shower or a bath, or swam in the ocean

Jesus wasn't "saved" by John The Baptist's water baptism, and neither is anyone else.. I'll ever dunk.

And you say that there is no "skipping the process"...yet the Dying Thief on the Cross Skipped it, and if was so important, im sure that God hanging there next to him might have pointed that out to him.
Dont you think?


Paul says..>"CHRIST sent me NOT TO WATER BAPTIZE".......

 

[user]

Are you sure about that? Are you a Greek or Hebrew scholar?
What if its the KJV and other versions who used the same manuscripts that are in error ?

KJV is a word-for-word translation.

NIV is a thought for thought.

 

[user]

The city water supply is your savior?
Is that right Truther?

Listen, If water could save you, then we'd all be saved when we took a shower or a bath, or swam in the ocean

Jesus wasn't "saved" by John The Baptist's water baptism, and neither is anyone else.. I'll ever dunk.

And you say that there is no "skipping the process"...yet the Dying Thief on the Cross Skipped it, and if was so important, im sure that God hanging there next to him might have pointed that out to him.
Dont you think?


Paul says..>"CHRIST sent me NOT TO WATER BAPTIZE".......

The gospel is the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ. At the time of the cross, the gospel of Christ was still in progress.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The NT church was born in the book of Acts, whereby we all must be saved.
The epistles were written to the churches which were saved through the book of Acts.

 

[user]

Paul says..>"CHRIST sent me NOT TO WATER BAPTIZE".......

Christ sent Paul not to baptize, although he had others to administer the ordinance. The same thing was true with Jesus...

John 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)