Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,380
2,594
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What would happen to Christians who choose to eat pork?
Your line of reasoning indicates spiritual adolescence. The choice a Christian makes is never about eating pork or whatever other "works" we may do.

Our choice - the only choice - we make is the day by day, moment by moment decision to either keep Christ on the throne of our heart or evict Him from it - our actions are merely outward evidence of that inward choice. Since "He that hath the Son hath life", there is only one obvious fate for the "Christian" who impenitently eats pork after Holy Spirit conviction has come, proving Christ no longer occupies the throne of his heart.

Does the husband who is madly in love with his wife consider for even a moment the sexual advances of an attractive office coworker, or is he repulsed by the thought of betraying his wife? Likewise, the reason so many "Christians" defend sin is because they only want Christ as Savior but not as Lord - like any other sham marriage where a devoted husband suffers a wife who belongs to the streets, interested only in the benefits of marriage but tramples the sanctity of it via her unfaithfulness.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What would happen to Christians who choose to eat pork?

Romans 14:20

Easy-to-Read Version

20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyChanYT

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let's try the SOCRATIC METHOD - the same which Jesus used to teach:

Q. Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV depicts what event?
A. Second Coming.

Q. Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV depicts the Second Coming as a past event or an event at the end time?
A. An event at the end of time.

Q. Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV depicts Jesus gloriously coming for what people in the future?
A. Christians

Q. Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV depicts Jesus arriving to consume what people?
A. Idolaters, Self-righteous, and those who eat pork, mice, and other unclean abominations.

Q. Does Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV say "grace" will shield some who are found eating these unclean things?
A. No - grace is not a OSAS License to Sin and the Presumptuous Man who claims it is will "not prosper".

Romans 14:20

Easy-to-Read Version

20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Illuminator

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Romans 14

Easy-to-Read Version

Don’t Criticize Others​

14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food,[a] but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.
5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.
7 We don’t live or die just for ourselves. 8 If we live, we are living for the Lord. And if we die, we are dying for the Lord. So living or dying, we belong to the Lord. 9 That is why Christ died and rose from death to live again—so that he could be Lord over those who have died and those who are living.
10 So why do you judge your brother or sister in Christ? Or why do you think that you are better than they are? We will all stand before God, and he will judge us all. 11 Yes, the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Everyone will bow before me;
everyone will say that I am God.’”
12 So each of us will have to explain to God about the things we do.

Don’t Cause Others to Sin​

13 So we should stop judging each other. Let’s decide not to do anything that will cause a problem for a brother or sister or hurt their faith. 14 I know that there is no food that is wrong to eat. The Lord Jesus is the one who convinced me of that. But if someone believes that something is wrong, then it is wrong for that person.
15 If you hurt the faith of your brother or sister because of something you eat, you are not really following the way of love. Don’t destroy anyone’s faith by eating something they think is wrong. Christ died for them. 16 Don’t allow what is good for you to become something they say is evil. 17 In God’s kingdom, what we eat and drink is not important. Here is what is important: a right way of life, peace, and joy—all from the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever serves Christ by living this way is pleasing God, and they will be accepted by others.
19 So let’s try as hard as we can to do what will bring peace. Let’s do whatever will help each other grow stronger in faith. 20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that hurts the faith of your brother or sister.
22 You should keep your beliefs about these things a secret between yourself and God. It is a blessing to be able to do what you think is right without feeling guilty. 23 But anyone who eats something without being sure it is right is doing wrong. That is because they did not believe it was right. And if you do anything that you believe is not right, it is sin.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1 Corinthians 8
Easy-to-Read Version
About Food Offered to Idols
8 Now I will write about meat that is sacrificed[a] to idols. It is certainly true that “we all have knowledge,” as you say. But this knowledge only fills people with pride. It is love that helps the church grow stronger. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know anything as they should. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

4 So this is what I say about eating meat: We know that an idol is really nothing in the world, and we know that there is only one God. 5 It’s really not important if there are things called gods in heaven or on earth—and there are many of these “gods” and “lords” out there. 6 For us there is only one God, and he is our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we also have life through him.

7 But not all people know this. Some have had the habit of worshiping idols. So now when they eat meat, they still feel as if it belongs to an idol. They are not sure that it is right to eat this meat. So when they eat it, they feel guilty. 8 But food will not bring us closer to God. Refusing to eat does not make us less pleasing to God, and eating does not make us closer to him.

9 But be careful with your freedom. Your freedom to eat anything may make those who have doubts about what they can eat fall into sin. 10 You understand that it’s all right to eat anything, so you can eat even in an idol’s temple. But someone who has doubts might see you eating there, and this might encourage them to eat meat sacrificed to idols too. But they really think it is wrong. 11 So this weak brother or sister—someone Christ died for—is lost because of your better understanding. 12 When you sin against your brothers and sisters in Christ in this way and you hurt them by causing them to do things they feel are wrong, you are also sinning against Christ. 13 So if the food I eat makes another believer fall into sin, I will never eat meat again. I will stop eating meat, so that I will not make my brother or sister sin.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

1 Timothy 4

Easy-to-Read Version

A Warning About False Teachers​

4 The Spirit clearly says that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe. They will obey spirits that tell lies. And they will follow the teachings of demons. 2 Those teachings come through people who tell lies and trick others. These evil people cannot see what is right and what is wrong. It is like their conscience has been destroyed with a hot iron. 3 They say that it is wrong to marry. And they say that there are some foods that people must not eat. But God made these foods, and those who believe and who understand the truth can eat them with thanks. 4 Everything that God made is good. Nothing he made should be refused if it is accepted with thanks to him. 5 Everything he created is made holy by what he has said and by prayer.

Be a Good Servant of Christ Jesus​

6 Tell this to the brothers and sisters there. This will show that you are a good servant of Christ Jesus. You will show that you are made strong by the words of faith and good teaching you have followed. 7 People tell silly stories that don’t agree with God’s truth. Don’t follow what these stories teach. But teach yourself to be devoted to God. 8 Training your body helps you in some ways. But devotion to God helps you in every way. It brings you blessings in this life and in the future life too. 9 Here is a true statement that should be accepted without question: 10 We hope in the living God, the Savior of all people. In particular, he is the Savior of all those who believe in him. This is why we work and struggle.
11 Command and teach these things. 12 You are young, but don’t let anyone treat you as if you are not important. Be an example to show the believers how they should live. Show them by what you say, by the way you live, by your love, by your faith, and by your pure life.
13 Continue to read the Scriptures to the people, encourage them, and teach them. Do this until I come. 14 Remember to use the gift you have, which was given to you through a prophecy[a] when the group of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Continue to do these things. Give your life to doing them. Then everyone can see that your work is progressing. 16 Be careful in your life and in your teaching. Continue to live and teach rightly. Then you will save yourself and those who listen to your teaching.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hebrews 13:9
Don’t let all kinds of strange teachings lead you into the wrong way. Depend only on God’s grace for spiritual strength, not on rules about foods. Obeying those rules doesn’t help anyone.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hebrews 13
Easy-to-Read Version
Worship That Pleases God
13 Continue loving each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. 2 Always remember to help people by welcoming them into your home. Some people have done that and have helped angels without knowing it. 3 Don’t forget those who are in prison. Remember them as though you were in prison with them. And don’t forget those who are suffering. Remember them as though you were suffering with them.

4 Marriage should be honored by everyone. And every marriage should be kept pure between husband and wife. God will judge guilty those who commit sexual sins and adultery. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money. And be satisfied with what you have. God has said,

“I will never leave you;
I will never run away from you.”

6 So we can feel sure and say,

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not be afraid.
People can do nothing to me.”

7 Remember your leaders. They taught God’s message to you. Remember how they lived and died, and copy their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Don’t let all kinds of strange teachings lead you into the wrong way. Depend only on God’s grace for spiritual strength, not on rules about foods. Obeying those rules doesn’t help anyone.

10 We have a sacrifice.[a] And those priests who serve in the Holy Tent cannot eat from the sacrifice we have. 11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place and offers that blood for sins. But the bodies of those animals are burned outside the camp. 12 So Jesus also suffered outside the city. He died to make his people holy with his own blood. 13 So we should go to Jesus outside the camp and accept the same shame that he had. 14 Here on earth we don’t have a city that lasts forever. But we are waiting for the city that we will have in the future. 15 So through Jesus we should never stop offering our sacrifice to God. That sacrifice is our praise, coming from lips that speak his name. 16 And don’t forget to do good and to share what you have with others, because sacrifices like these are very pleasing to God.

17 Obey your leaders. Be willing to do what they say. They are responsible for your spiritual welfare, so they are always watching to protect you. Obey them so that their work will give them joy, not grief. It won’t help you to make it hard for them.

18 Continue praying for us. We feel right about what we do, because we always try to do what is best. 19 And I beg you to pray that God will send me back to you soon. I want this more than anything else.

20-21 I pray that the God of peace will give you every good thing you need so that you can do what he wants. God is the one who raised from death our Lord Jesus, the Great Shepherd of his sheep. He raised him because Jesus sacrificed his blood to begin the new agreement that never ends. I pray that God will work through Jesus Christ to do the things in us that please him. To him be glory forever. Amen.

22 My brothers and sisters, I beg you to listen patiently to what I have said. I wrote this letter to strengthen you. And it is not very long. 23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy is out of prison. If he comes to me soon, we will both come to see you.

24 Give my greetings to all your leaders and to all God’s people. All those from Italy send you their greetings.

25 God’s grace be with you all.
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,380
2,594
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Instead of overgeneralizing, can you be more specific? To prove that you are not jumping to conclusions, go ahead and quote my specific words and contradict them if you are able.
I thought I was specific, but I'll reiterate:

Spiritual adolescents fail to understand that works are merely the outward evidence of our inward spiritual condition. By understanding this, you would never ask about the consequences of a Christian choosing to eat pork because you'd already know that Christian has made the choice to evict Jesus from the throne of his heart in order to do so.

What do you say is the consequence for evicting Jesus from the throne of one's heart?
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,380
2,594
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Romans 14:20​

Easy-to-Read Version​

20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person.
The difference between you and me is this:

My interpretation harmonizes both passages and preserves Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV by the correct understanding that Romans 14 is a clarification of whether or not Jewish Feast Day Menus needed to be kept by Jewish converts to Christianity, not an authorization to eat anything that crawls across your plate - because the "clean/unclean" distinction is made in Noah's day long before the first Jew came along and extends to the Second Coming, according to Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV and Paul's plain words that whatever we eat must be "sanctified" or "set apart as fit fare" by God's Word.

Your interpretation claims Romans 14 is authorizing the consumption of whatever crawls across your plate which destroys the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV that Jesus will consume pork eaters when He comes in glory, leaving Scriptural harmony in a giant mushroom cloud of nuclear obliteration.

That's why I'm an SDA - we're the only Protestant denomination that maintains total Scriptural harmony throughout our doctrines which we establish from the Bible and the Bible alone...and I've yet to have anyone step up and point to a single disharmonious doctrine, which is why the critics are forced to resort to "EGW this, EGW that, EGW the other thing, blah blah blah".
 
Last edited:
  • Wow
Reactions: The Learner

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,380
2,594
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hebrews 13:9
Don’t let all kinds of strange teachings lead you into the wrong way. Depend only on God’s grace for spiritual strength, not on rules about foods. Obeying those rules doesn’t help anyone.
God's grace is not a OSAS License to Sin.

James warned us that folks would come along and turn grace into "lasciviousness" and I encourage all to heed that warning, lest they hear those awful words, "Depart from Me".
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The difference between you and me is this:

My interpretation harmonizes both passages and preserves Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV by the correct understanding that Romans 14 is a clarification of whether or not Jewish Feast Day Menus needed to be kept by Jewish converts to Christianity, not an authorization to eat anything that crawls across your plate - because the "clean/unclean" distinction is made in Noah's day long before the first Jew came along and extends to the Second Coming, according to Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV and Paul's plain words that whatever we eat must be "sanctified" or "set apart as fit fare" by God's Word.

Your interpretation claims Romans 14 is authorizing the consumption of whatever crawls across your plate which destroys the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 66:15-17 KJV that Jesus will consume pork eaters when He comes in glory, leaving Scriptural harmony in a giant mushroom cloud of nuclear obliteration.

That's why I'm an SDA - we're the only Protestant denomination that maintains total Scriptural harmony throughout our doctrines which we establish from the Bible and the Bible alone...and I've yet to have anyone step up and point to a single disharmonious doctrine, which is why the critics are forced to resort to "EGW this, EGW that, EGW the other thing, blah blah blah".
I have the advantage of knowing Greek. And, reading other Scholars.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And in Romans 14:14, when Paul discusses “unclean” food, we recognize this as a category of Jewish kosher food laws.
...
(And it’s worth noting that in Romans 15:1, Paul puts himself in the strong group who understands that no food is unclean in itself.)
...
In this passage, the apostle is openly stating that all food is inherently clean. And in light of 14:2-3, we can further clarify that he means all meat is clean. Paul teaches that food is only unclean to the person who considers it unclean as a matter of personal conscience.
...
…the word translated as “unclean” is koinos. This is not the Greek word used elsewhere in the New Testament when speaking of ‘unclean’ animals (akathartos). Rather, koinos is used to denote common things. For example, in Acts 10:14, Peter says, “I have never eaten anything that is common [koinos] or unclean [akathartos]. In this verse, Peter uses two independent Greek adjectives when speaking to God, and it’s clear that he made a distinction between the two words—one is merely common, and one is unclean.
...
The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common (koinos) or unclean (akathartos).

Acts 10:19-14, emphasis added

...

 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Verse 20​

20. ] τὸ ἔργον τ . θεοῦ has been variously understood: by Fritz. and Baumg.-Crusius, as = δικαιος . εἰρήνη , κ . χαρά : by Meyer and Krehl, as = the Christian status of the offended brother , so as to be parallel to Romans 14:15 (NAS)
15 For if because of food your brother {or sister} is hurt, you are no longer walking in accordance with love. Do not destroy with your {choice} of food that {person} for whom Christ died.
Click link to access powerful study resources in a new window.
Powered by StudyTagger™ from StudyLight.org
" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; cursor: pointer; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); margin-left: 2px; margin-right: 2px;">Romans 14:15 ; by Theodoret and Reiche, as = the faith of thy fellow-Christian : by Morus, Rosenm., al., as = ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θ ., ‘ the spread of the Gospel .’ But I believe the expression οἰκοδομή having just preceded is the clue to the right meaning: and that τὸ ἔργον = τὴν οἰκοδομήν in the Apostle’s mind. He calls Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:9 (NAS)
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
Click link to access powerful study resources in a new window.
Powered by StudyTagger™ from StudyLight.org
" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; cursor: pointer; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); margin-left: 2px; margin-right: 2px;">1 Corinthians 3:9 , θεοῦ γεώργιον , θεοῦ οἰκοδομή . Thus it will mean, thy fellow-Christian, as a plant of God’s planting, a building of God’s raising . So, nearly, De Wette and Tholuck. All things indeed are pure, but (it is) evil to the man (‘there is criminality in the man;’ Meyer supplies τὸ καθαρόν , Grot. τὸ βρῶμα , Fritz. τὸ πάντα φαγεῖν : but nothing need be supplied, any more than to καλόν ) who eats with offence (i.e. giving offence to his weak brother, as Theodoret, Calv., Beza, Grot., Estius, Bengel, Thol., De Wette, al. That this is the right interpretation is shewn by the sentence standing between two others both addressed to the strong who is in danger of offending the weak . But Chrys., Theophyl., Œc [123] , Meyer, al., take the sense of ‘ receiving offence,’ and understand it of the weak ).



[123] Œcumenius of Tricca in Thrace, Cent y . XI.?

return to 'Top of Page'

Verse 21​

21. ] It is good not to eat meats nor to drink wine, nor ( to do any thing : the ellipsis is a harsh one. Fritzsche says, “aut supple φαγεῖν ἢ πιεῖν τοῦτο , ἐν ᾧ κ . τ . λ ., as Thl., Beng., Flatt, al., or ποιεῖν (or πράσσειν ) τοῦτο ἐν ᾧ κ . τ . λ ., as Grot. Meyer, &c. Præfero illud, quoniam per totum hunc locum de cibo potuque agitur.” But why should not the Apostle, as so often, be deducing a general duty from the particular subject?) in (by) which thy brother stumbles, or is offended (see on Rom 14:13 ), or is weak (Thol. remarks that the three verbs form a climax ad infra ).
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is worth mentioning the word “unclean” in Rom14:14 in our English versions of the Bible comes from the Greek word “koinos” (G2839 – κοινός – koinos) meaning “common”. The word “unclean” is actually a different Greek word “Akathartos” (G169 – ἀκάθαρτος – akathartos). Both these words can be read in Act 10:14 “But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common(koinos) or unclean(akathartos)”. In fact this is the only place where “koinos” is translated as “unclean” in the whole of the New Testament.

While unclean(akathartos) was used to denote something unclean like “unclean foods”, common(koinos) was used to indicate something “ritually impure”, such as in the case of eating with unwashed hands. “Ritual impurity” was not part of God’s Law, but was connected to Tradition. (Read this study for a in depth look at the difference of God’s Law & Tradition). Basically, unclean(akathartos) was part of God’s Law, while common(koinos) was part of tradition.

So with the above information, let’s try to understand the point Paul is trying to make. In the context of the issue of fasting, he must be reiterating the fact that there is no “common”/”ritually impure”/”wrong way” of fasting. That he believes there is no wrong way of practicing fasting – but if a person concludes he/she should not fast in a particular way, for him/her, the act of fasting in that particular way becomes “common”/wrong way”. In other words, if we fast, we must do it in the way we are led to do it, rather than adhering something that you do not fully agree with.

...

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Paul goes onto finish his advise on the matter of fasting by explaining that “food”(Bromah) should not cause the destruction of the work of God – meaning it should not hinder the work of salvation. All manners of Fasting, whether on a specific day or not, is pure. But it is evil if someone eats and becomes a stumbling block to others through doubtful disputes.