Whats the meaning?

[Elf]

(kriss;44068)
The problem I find with this doctrine is that everyone trys to make it one or the other in a way I kind of agree with Tim it is Both there is predestination but it does not rule out free will nor vise versa The Bible says that we have the free will choice – all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who was seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Predestination can work hand in hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!”Predestination can not be denied but neither can free will
People have always tried to change the meaning of God's word, but the fact remains, God's word don't change. Here is a friend on another forum, Ill let his post shed some light on this free will thing: Tim Keller has a good take on predestination/election from his Q&A sessions (check out the free download)[url="http://sermons.redeemer.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=28]http://sermons.redeemer.com/store/index.cf...&category_id=28[/url]He makes the point that those who believe in predestination and those who don't are faced with the same problem.Before the foundation of the world God knew who would be saved, so whether you believe he chose them or simply elected whom He knew would choose Him based on His foreknowledge you still have a similar problem.Free-will propponents will say "God does not want to violate your free-will" I never understood this defense? What's the big deal?!?! If I'm bound for hell please violate my free will!!! The way Paul's will was drastically changed/altered on the road to Damascus. If we are all walking around with blind-folds, how privialged we would be if GOd chose to remove the blindfold and make us aware the warmth we are feeling/headed toward is not the beach but hell. So if we are fallen creatures and rely on GOd to open our spiritual eyes, how merciful is God when He makes us aware of our sinful condition so we may be reconciled unto Him. I don't see this as a violation of our free will, I see this as God granting in us the ability to come to Him - so our spiritual ability or free-will to choose Him is restored & assured.God Bless!AC

 

[Elf]

People have always tried to change the meaning of God's word, but the fact remains, God's word don't change. Here is a friend on another forum, Ill let his post shed some light on this free will thing:
Tim Keller has a good take on predestination/election from his Q&A sessions (check out the free download)http://sermons.redeemer.com/store/index.cf...&category_id=28He makes the point that those who believe in predestination and those who don't are faced with the same problem.Before the foundation of the world God knew who would be saved, so whether you believe he chose them or simply elected whom He knew would choose Him based on His foreknowledge you still have a similar problem.Free-will propponents will say "God does not want to violate your free-will" I never understood this defense? What's the big deal?!?! If I'm bound for hell please violate my free will!!! The way Paul's will was drastically changed/altered on the road to Damascus. If we are all walking around with blind-folds, how privialged we would be if GOd chose to remove the blindfold and make us aware the warmth we are feeling/headed toward is not the beach but hell. So if we are fallen creatures and rely on GOd to open our spiritual eyes, how merciful is God when He makes us aware of our sinful condition so we may be reconciled unto Him. I don't see this as a violation of our free will, I see this as God granting in us the ability to come to Him - so our spiritual ability or free-will to choose Him is restored & assured.God Bless!AC
All I can say to this is, Amen!

 

[Christina]

As I said above I think it is indeed both but I do not believe anyone other than Satan is condemed to hell I think in the End free will wins out even over predestined just as the example of Paul he could have still exercised his free will and denied Christs willingly although admittedatly at great price to himself. In the end God himself says he had to shorten the time or even the very Elect (who are Predestined) might be fooled there fore this would seem to say that even if predestined free will could cause one to believe the delusion

 

[Elf]

(kriss;44105)
As I said above I think it is indeed both but I do not believe anyone other than Satan is condemed to hell I think in the End free will wins out even over predestined just as the example of Paul he could have still exercised his free will and denied Christs willingly although admittedatly at great price to himself. In the end God himself says he had to shorten the time or even the very Elect (who are Predestined) might be fooled there fore this would seem to say that even if predestined free will could cause one to believe the delusion

I think in the End free will wins out even over predestined just as the example of Paul he could have still exercised his free will and denied Christs willingly although admittedatly at great price to himself.
What scripture is this?

 

[zadzial]

(kriss;44105)
As I said above I think it is indeed both but I do not believe anyone other than Satan is condemed to hell
Unfortunately once sin entered the world we were all condemned to hell because "all sin and fall short of God's glory". It is only by the grace of God that he has chosen to save some. People often have a problem with this fact, but the Bible tells us:"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 and Exodus 33:19) It does not say I will have mercy on all and I will have compassion of all. The fact that God shows mercy and compassion on any of us is an incredible testimony of his amazing love for us.Romans 9 talks a great deal about this issue. Actually all of Romans deals with these issues. So much in there for a Christian to chew on. :study:In my earlier post I made the following pointzadzial;43949)
In the beginning, when everything was still good as God created it, Adam and Eve had free will. They could choose to obey God or not. They chose not to. Once sin entered the world humanity no longer had free will but instead was enslaved to sin. Therefore, if we are enslaved to sin, how can we choose God? We cannot, unless he first removes sin from us. Then we can see clearly to choose God. It is God who saves, who sets us free from our sin.
Where in the Bible does it say we have free will? We talk about it a lot but I do not think humanity has any idea what it means by the term. Humanity is enslaved to sin - it is dead. A dead man can do nothing. A dead man can certainly not make a choice to raise himself to life again. Only God can do that. Only God chooses who he will raise again to life. God is sovereign over all creation. To say anything other than God has predenstined who will be saved is reduce God's sovereignty. To say wahy then would God predestine anyone to hell is incorrect. We did that ourselves. We sinned. We condemned ourselves.Praise be the God that he chose to save some of us.

 

[Christina]

(zadzial;44149)
Unfortunately once sin entered the world we were all condemned to hell because "all sin and fall short of God's glory". It is only by the grace of God that he has chosen to save some. People often have a problem with this fact, but the Bible tells us:"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 and Exodus 33:19) It does not say I will have mercy on all and I will have compassion of all. The fact that God shows mercy and compassion on any of us is an incredible testimony of his amazing love for us.Romans 9 talks a great deal about this issue. Actually all of Romans deals with these issues. So much in there for a Christian to chew on. :study:In my earlier post I made the following point:Where in the Bible does it say we have free will? We talk about it a lot but I do not think humanity has any idea what it means by the term. Humanity is enslaved to sin - it is dead. A dead man can do nothing. A dead man can certainly not make a choice to raise himself to life again. Only God can do that. Only God chooses who he will raise again to life. God is sovereign over all creation. To say anything other than God has predenstined who will be saved is reduce God's sovereignty. To say wahy then would God predestine anyone to hell is incorrect. We did that ourselves. We sinned. We condemned ourselves.Praise be the God that he chose to save some of us.
This is exactly why I hate this doctrine people can not see the forest through the trees we must choose Christ in order to be saved. NO ONE EVEN A PREDESTINED ELECT PERSON WILL BE SAVED UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO ACCEPT WHAT IS OFFERED THEM CHRISTAND NO ONE UNTIL AFTER THE WHITE THRONED JUDGEMENT AT THE END OF THE MILLIEUM IS DAMNED TO HELL FOREVER EXCEPT SATANThat is scripture now as I have said God shortned the time or even the very Elect would be in danger of losing there soul why because of their free will to choose what God they will follow We are all born into sin yes, to be in flesh is from sin this doesnt prove predestination or disprove it It is in fact both predestination subject to ones free will And to declare differntly is mocking God by saying everyone is already destined to heaven or hell and you have no say in it .IF this is Ones doctrine then its a doctrine of men not God it takes the Word out of context without fullness of meaning to prove yet another doctrine of menRomans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.Romans 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[HammerStone]

What scripture is this?
II Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I'll let you look it up to check me out, but do some research on perdition.http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon...ongs=G684&t=kjvGreat place to start, but any Strong's will do. Perdition means destruction and there is only one son of destruction who is already condemned by name (Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14).Flip to John 17.John 17:11-12
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
He is called Apollyon in the Greek tounge.Revelation 9:11
And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

 

[Elf]

(kriss;44068)
The problem I find with this doctrine is that everyone trys to make it one or the other
Thats not the doctrine, thats the people.

 

[RaddSpencer]

(Elf;43927)
Can anyone explain the meanings of these verses?
I don't know about that but.... Why are you a Christian... I mean you are an elf --- an ELF.That means you can't receive Jesus's salvation"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy 2:5-6 I DON"T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT SANTA'S LITTLE HELPER in there bub!!!Looks like you are up the creek pal without a paddle... I'm sorry -- NO SALVATION FOR YOU elf!!!(btw, its a joke -- this is your cue to laugh -- long into the night).

 

[Morning_Joy]

Looks like you are up the creek pal without a paddle... I'm sorry -- NO SALVATION FOR YOU elf!!!
That wasn't very kind, RaddSpencer. I know that you were "just kidding", but I don't think that was anything to joke about.

 

[RaddSpencer]

(Morning_Joy;44174)
That wasn't very kind, RaddSpencer. I know that you were "just kidding", but I don't think that was anything to joke about.
You missed the whole point. Jesus died for Adam's children -- therefore elves cannot be saved.However, this guy is not -- in actuality an elf-- therefore he can (and most likely is saved)Does any one on this board have a sense of humor? I'm becoming skeptical. Its a shame that most Christians lose their sense of humor when they are saved.Yet another Christian Stereotype that has been perpetuated (ugh)

 

[waynemlj]

Hi krissThe topic of free will is a mighty big one for sure.In Elf's post above he listed many Scriptures that show we were dead in our trespasses and sins when God found us just like the shepherd who goes out in the wilderness to search for his one little lost sheep. He brings it back home with him.Ephesians 2:1-10 tells the whole story of how we started out in this life spiritually enemies of God, dead spiritually. In fact, verse 2 says in part, ". . . following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience." Clearly no one has free will with regard to choosing God. The only free will we had before we were saved from "following the prince of the power of the air" is the free will to keep right on "following the prince of the power of the air." That prince is Satan. No one has free will to believe in Christ. That ability to believe which you and I have is purely God's gift to us which we then use to seek and follow and believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation. Verses 8 and 9 of Ephesians contain that part of the information we need in order to see just how wonderful and merciful God has been to us."For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."No one who is saved had free will to seek or choose God. Absolutely no one! Romans 3:10-11, "as it is written:No one is righteous, no, not one;No one seeks for God."We need to be very humble and grateful to God for our wonderful salvation that He gave us and was dearly purchased through the death of Jesus on the cross and His glorious triumph over the grave when He arose three days later!All the glory be to God!waynemlj

 

[Christina]

Dear Wayne, you think to narrow you have totally disavowed the entire reason for this age ignored scripture that are contradictory to this and turned Gods into a spectator of a bunch of predetermined robots as I have said before you are right to a point I can not deny predestination that was determined in the katabole but it is only a part of Gods plan until you see that there is no point arguing this with you. You are stuck in rut and cant see over the edges till you open your mind and allow Gods wisdom to show you the rest of the plan. The facts are predestination and free will work hand in hand it is the mysterious way God works. The fact is God never denied salvation to anyone that asks predestined or not. You may be predestinened to be called but free will makes the choice wether or not you answer those are the facts of scripture and Gods planRomans 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.__________________

 

[MyLordYeshuaHaMashiah]

Dear Elf, Let Adonai continue blessing your life!, thank you for sharing your thoughts in this thread, they all encourage me to continue growing in the scriptures. While reading this entire thread it just came to my mind, have you thought about the implications of preaching the news of salvation God gave us, if gentiles or non believers acknowledge this doctrine of predestination?

 

[Christina]

(Elf;44163)
Thats not the doctrine, thats the people.
Well half true Predestination is a doctrine it started with John Calvin but in recent times has turned radical to be called Calvinisim and it says everyone is Predestined to heaven or hell no matter what one does and it has its basis in Works rather than Grace

 

[Christina]

It is God’s will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), therefore, it must be someone else’s choice that separates individuals from God. God says we will reap what we sow – we can choose to reap differently (Galatians 6:7-8).The multitudes of directives given by God assume that the hearers can make a choice to obey or disobey. It only seems logical that God could hold us accountable for that if we indeed had free will to choose. Therefore, a just God would not declare expectations on those that are not free to choose. It would be unjust for God to then punish those who had no choice in their actions. God, in His absolute sovereignty, created the human race with ability to make genuine and free choices.

 

[zadzial]

(kriss;44387)
Well half true Predestination is a doctrine it started with John Calvin but in recent times has turned radical to be called Calvinisim and it says everyone is Predestined to heaven or hell no matter what one does and it has its basis in Works rather than Grace
If you say that the doctrine of predestination has its basis in works rather than Grace, then you have completely misunderstood the doctrine. The doctrine is so focused on Grace that it excludes works.(kriss;44388)
It is God’s will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), therefore, it must be someone else’s choice that separates individuals from God. God says we will reap what we sow – we can choose to reap differently (Galatians 6:7-8).
Yes, it was someone else's choice that separated us from God. Ours! At the Fall, man was separated from God. It was by the Grace of God alone that he chose to bring some of us back to himself.(kriss;44388)
The multitudes of directives given by God assume that the hearers can make a choice to obey or disobey. It only seems logical that God could hold us accountable for that if we indeed had free will to choose. Therefore, a just God would not declare expectations on those that are not free to choose. It would be unjust for God to then punish those who had no choice in their actions. God, in His absolute sovereignty, created the human race with ability to make genuine and free choices.
"There is no one righteous, not even one; there isno one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." Romans 3:10-12, Psalm 14.No one seeks God. It is God who seeks us."This is love: not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." 1 John 4:10

 

[waynemlj]

(kriss;44387)
Well half true Predestination is a doctrine it started with John Calvin but in recent times has turned radical to be called Calvinisim and it says everyone is Predestined to heaven or hell no matter what one does and it has its basis in Works rather than Grace
Hi kriss,You need to begin at the right place. The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit, not by John Calvin. You have a fixation about Calvin because you aren't looking at the whole counsel of God. 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."Did you see here that God does the calling not the "free will" of the lost soul.Verse 29, "For those who he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of he Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."Here, again, God's Word clearly tells us that He "foreknew" us and "predestined" us . . . we had nothing to do with that process that happened before we were born.Verse 30, "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those who he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." You and I are receivers of His call. We did not choose Him as that entire Scripture reveals. He chose us. It was after that that you and I were able to respond to His gift of His call.Add to that Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."This may come as a shock to you, apparently, from the things you teach on this Board, but the above Scripture again tells you that you had NOTHING TO DO with your salvation. Otherwise, you would be preaching a salvation of "works" instead of a salvation of "grace."Salvation if of the Lord!Read carefully the first Gospel preached by God in Genesis 3:15, "I will put enmity between you and the woman,and between your offspring and her offspring;he shall bruise your head,and you shall bruise his heel."Who do you suppose are the "offspring" of the serpent? They are the reprobate, the lost.Who do you suppose are the "offspring" of the woman? They are the righteous, the saved and Christ is the Head.That's the truth of God's Word! You will have to argue against God if you only partly believe in predestination of the saved and the lost and partly in the "free will" of "all" to choose God or not.More proof that you and I did not seek God for salvation:Romans 3:10-12, "as it is written:none is righteous, no not one;no one seeks for God.All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good,not even one."waynemlj

 

[waynemlj]

(Alanforchrist;43953)
[1] You quoted, "No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him" Jn 6:44.But in Jn 12: 32, Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME".God draws all people, and them that are open to His calling will come.[2]If you think Predestined in Romans 8: 29, Is that God choses certain people for salvation, You have to put the Bible in it's right context, Read on to v 32."If God spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for for us ALL".[3] At least nine times in the Bible, it says, God in not a respecter of people.And James 2: 9. Says, To be a respecter of people is sin. For God to chose one to salvation, and one to doom, is a respecter of people, Therefore God would be a sinner.[4] God wants everyone to be saved.1 John. 2: 2. 2 Peter 3: 9. Titus 2: 11. 1 Timothy 2: 4. 1 Timothy 4: 10--11. Says, God is the saviour of ALL Men,Then God commands us to teach this.If God commands us to teach that He wants everyone to be saved, [A] Then we should teach it. That does away with "Election. and being predestined to salvation".[5] God has chosen a body, and that body consists of anyone and everyone who will [From free choice] believe and receive God's salvation.
Hi Alanforchrist,Your understanding of predestination is confused. If we were to follow your definition that God looked ahead in time and saw that Alanforchrist and waynemlj were going to believe in Jesus, then you are making salvation a salvation of works that WE performed. WE could not perform an act of faith at all! You must see this truth! We were DEAD MEN SPIRITUALLY! Ephesians 2:1-10, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air . . . and were by nature children of wrath . . . But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved . . . for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."The only thing you and I can boast about is that we were following Satan. Not much faith there, is there?Next you have to explain how you and I can take credit for believing on our own when God's word says that He made us alive in Christ. "He" means God! We did not make ourselves alive. Ridiculous thought!Further in the passage God clearly tells us that He gave us the gift of faith so that we could believe. To make sure we get the point, He adds "And this is not your own doing!Our believing is not our work. So we can not boast about it.Predestination is God's hidden knowledge about His choosing certain ones for His Son to save on the cross. Again we see the same knowledge of predestination revealed to us in Romans 9:11-13, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, "The older will serve the younger. As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' "That's all God's decision. Babies don't make acts of faith when they are still in their mother's womb, do they?You must examine God's word carefully and not insert what you prefer it to mean.I have conclusively backed with Scripture God's version of election so that you can choose to believe the correct version.And as for God not being a "respector of persons" in Acts 10:34-35, Peter is not discussing predestination at all!He's saying that God is not a racist. He chooses people from every nation. That's a simple point to see there.I hope, by now, you have a correct understanding of predestination. You had NOTHING to do with your own salvation. Absolutely NOTHING!waynemlj

 

[Dunamite]

(Elf;43927)
Can anyone explain the meanings of these verses? John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."Mathew 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. In Romans 8:30, some will say God knew "For those whom He foreknew" those who would believe in the gospel so these are the ones He predestined (this is not the meaning of foreknowledge). But this would make no sense, Why would God predestine those who He knew would come on their own? Did God peek into the future to see what we would do first? If this were the case, why would He have to call them, "He also called" if He already saw them that would come? Could God have been wrong? John 6:44, No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws them. So all these people who God seen would come to Him, unfortunately cannot, because, they have to first be drawn by the Father.Only thing that makes sense is God is Sovereign, He chose His elect, not based on anything they have done or what they will do, but on God's choice of election. Since Adam, we are all born into sin (original sin) no one seeks God, from the womb we all go astray. And we have no genuine desire for Christ on our own, we are not spiritually sick, but "Dead". The only reason we come to God is because through His grace and mercy He chose some to be saved, and these (His elect) are drawn to Christ through the gospel, by the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. We will not come on our own, we have no desire, like David said Psalm 51:5 We were brought forth in iniquity and in sin we were born. But God in His mercy, while we were yet dead in sin, "MADE US ALIVE" together with Christ, Ephesians 2:1-5. We are saved by grace (unmerited favor, nothing we could ever do earned it) through faith. This is not even of us (we did not possess this, we were dead) it is a gift of God. Not based on anything we could do "not a result of works." Therefore, who can boast? No one! This should leave us speechless people, you who belong to Christ, it was ordained by God Himself. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me", not, amazing grace how sweet the sound that let me save myself. Well this is (partially) my take, with scripture. What does everyone else think? Can you back your belief with scripture?God Bless.
John 10: 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."This is not a statement of predestination, but of eternal security. God the Father gives to Jesus' care all those who are to be saved. Once given their salvation is assured since as Jesus says, "nobody" can take them out of his hand, just as "nobody" can take them out of God the Father's hands.When we look at predestination we are looking not as God does, but as we do, linearly. For us time is a limitation. For God it is not limitation. Past, present and future are the same. He knows who will be saved not because he has chosen for the person, but because he knows their decision before they make it.God plays a role in our decision. He is always present in our lives. He is working in the background even before we come to know him. He is not determining the outcome for us, but getting us to the point where we are able to choose. He has also played the biggest role of all, by winning the victory over sin and death so that our decision has significance.This is not the same thing as predetermining the outcome which makes us sound like chess pieces with no lives of our own. We have lives worth living because we have free will. We have lives worth living because God made us to be recipients of his love and grace. We are not worthy of his love and grace, but he does it anyway.When we become Christians we are receiving what God wants to give us. That involves making a decision and having a choice. Predestination means different things to different people. Since God is sovereign and all powerful and since it says in scripture that he desires no one to perish, then it would seem to be a simple matter to preordain that everyone be saved. However, we know from scripture that not everyone will be saved. This could be seen that God is not all powerful and sovereign by some. But this cannot be because it contradicts his nature.God must therefore be willing to set aside his will for us so that we can do the choosing which makes sense in light of the rest of scripture. I have only muddied the waters, but that is because this is a murky issue. It has raged for centuries. Everyone needs to be convinced in his or her own mind only so far as they need to. It isn't something on which your salvation depends.I believe in once saved, always saved. I do not believe that my becoming a Christian was predetermined by God. Otherwise, my route would have been considerably shorter. I am one of those people who does not do things the easy way. If I am wrong, it does not matter. We are not saved by works. There is no test to get into Heaven. We can all be thankful for that because God has deliberately withheld knowledge from us to suit his own sovereign purposes.