What's your take on the Catholic mystics (Madame Guyon, Michael Molinos, St John of the cross
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Other then the Bible......specifically Paul's NT doctrine, i'd suggest that anyone who has gotten past the diaper baby stage of Christianity......... the "i can lose my salvation".. "while im trying to save myself by confessing sin and keeping the commandments, and """. ect.
= Hebrews 6:1 baby Christian stage...
So, if you are beyond this that i just described....as the baby Christian stage, then you are ready to receive from God.
Therefore what you do, is get into Paul's Epistles, and stay there for LIFE.
And the other thing you can do, is not waste time on "commentaries" and "the newest best selling "christian" book".
Just avoid those, and instead study the lives and the revelations of : The Saints.
This Thread mentioned 2 good ones.....ST John and Madame Guyon.. and i'd have you look at
St Francis
St Bernadette
Hildegard of Bingen
These people, were not always theologicallly perfect..... some better then others.....but, they ALL had a relationship with God, in the spirit realm, that is very encouraging, enlightening, fascinating, and supernatural.
And if you've not read this Book by C.S. Lewis :
"The Screwtape Letters"..
Then you should.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
I'll list a few "Saints" for you, and if you are curious, then order a Book.
1.) Mary Of Egypt.
2.) . Joan of Arc
3.) St Bernard Of Clairvaux
4.) . Dionysius
5.) . Richard of St. Victor
6.) . Gregory of Nyssa
Another Book you should get :
Foxe's Book Of Martyrs
1.) Mary Of Egypt.
2.) . Joan of Arc
3.) St Bernard Of Clairvaux
4.) . Dionysius
5.) . Richard of St. Victor
6.) . Gregory of Nyssa
Another Book you should get :
Foxe's Book Of Martyrs
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jeanne Guyon
Very inspiring person.
And typical of the Catholic Church.....they mistreat, torture, or kill someone, (back in those days), and later they re-qualify them and elevate them as a "Saint". This is usually a few hundred years after they torture and kill them.
This happened to Joan of Arc.
This happened to Jeanne Guyon., and in her case they kept her in a cold wet dungeon for 7 years,
Eventually they let her out, and now she's revered by the CC as a "Saint" as if they never tortured her for half her life.
Guyon is one of the more prolific writers of theology (personal) along with Hildegard of Bingen.
Both have been published for a long time, and both are very interesting reads.
Guyon's books are useful in understanding some of the deeper principals of the Christian walk and the "inner" prayer life.
Very inspiring person.
And typical of the Catholic Church.....they mistreat, torture, or kill someone, (back in those days), and later they re-qualify them and elevate them as a "Saint". This is usually a few hundred years after they torture and kill them.
This happened to Joan of Arc.
This happened to Jeanne Guyon., and in her case they kept her in a cold wet dungeon for 7 years,
Eventually they let her out, and now she's revered by the CC as a "Saint" as if they never tortured her for half her life.
Guyon is one of the more prolific writers of theology (personal) along with Hildegard of Bingen.
Both have been published for a long time, and both are very interesting reads.
Guyon's books are useful in understanding some of the deeper principals of the Christian walk and the "inner" prayer life.
Behold
Well-Known Member
“Lord, make me an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy.”
-St. Francis
“Give something, however small, to the one in need. For it is not small to one who has nothing. Neither is it small to God, if we have given what we could.”
-St. Gregory Nazianzen
“Let us go forward in peace, our eyes upon heaven, the only one goal of our labors.”
-St. Therese of Lisieux
“Love God, serve God; everything is in that.”
-St. Clare of Assisi
“Pray with great confidence, with confidence based upon the goodness and infinite generosity of God and upon the promises of Jesus Christ. God is a spring of living water which flows unceasingly into the hearts of those who pray.”
-St. Louis de Montfort
“You learn to speak by speaking, to study by studying, to run by running, to work by working, and just so, you learn to love by loving. All those who think to learn in any other way deceive themselves.”
-St. Francis de Sales
The more a man uses moderation in his life, the more he is at peace, for he is not full of cares for many things.
Nothing is anything more to me; everything is nothing to me, but Jesus: neither things nor persons, neither ideas nor emotions, neither honor nor sufferings. Jesus is for me honor, delight, heart and soul.
-St. Francis
“Give something, however small, to the one in need. For it is not small to one who has nothing. Neither is it small to God, if we have given what we could.”
-St. Gregory Nazianzen
“Let us go forward in peace, our eyes upon heaven, the only one goal of our labors.”
-St. Therese of Lisieux
“Love God, serve God; everything is in that.”
-St. Clare of Assisi
“Pray with great confidence, with confidence based upon the goodness and infinite generosity of God and upon the promises of Jesus Christ. God is a spring of living water which flows unceasingly into the hearts of those who pray.”
-St. Louis de Montfort
“You learn to speak by speaking, to study by studying, to run by running, to work by working, and just so, you learn to love by loving. All those who think to learn in any other way deceive themselves.”
-St. Francis de Sales
The more a man uses moderation in his life, the more he is at peace, for he is not full of cares for many things.
Nothing is anything more to me; everything is nothing to me, but Jesus: neither things nor persons, neither ideas nor emotions, neither honor nor sufferings. Jesus is for me honor, delight, heart and soul.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Let nothing disturb thee;
Let nothing dismay thee:
All thing pass;
God never changes.
Patience attains
All that it strives for.
He who has God
Finds he lacks nothing:
God alone suffice.
- Teresa of Avila
However quietly we speak, He is so near that He will hear us: we need no wings to go in search of Him but have only to find a place where we can be alone and look upon Him present within us.
- Teresa of Avila
It is a better thing to save souls for the Lord than to save treasures.
He who sent forth his apostles without gold had not need of gold to form his Church.
The Church possesses gold, not to hoard, but to scatter abroad and come to the aid of the unfortunate.
Saint Ambrose
Saint Ambrose
Let nothing dismay thee:
All thing pass;
God never changes.
Patience attains
All that it strives for.
He who has God
Finds he lacks nothing:
God alone suffice.
- Teresa of Avila
However quietly we speak, He is so near that He will hear us: we need no wings to go in search of Him but have only to find a place where we can be alone and look upon Him present within us.
- Teresa of Avila
It is a better thing to save souls for the Lord than to save treasures.
He who sent forth his apostles without gold had not need of gold to form his Church.
The Church possesses gold, not to hoard, but to scatter abroad and come to the aid of the unfortunate.
Saint Ambrose
Saint Ambrose
Behold
Well-Known Member
More quotes from famous : Saints
-
"Let us love, since that is what our hearts were made for"
""""Spread love everywhere you go: first of all in your own house. Give love to your children, to your wife or husband, to a next door neighbor... Let no one ever come to you without leaving better and happier. Be the living expression of God's kindness; kindness in your face, kindness in your eyes, kindness in your smile, kindness in your warm greeting.""
""""The things that we love tell us what we are.""""
"What does love look like? It has the hands to help others. It has the feet to hasten to the poor and needy. It has eyes to see misery and want. It has the ears to hear the sighs and sorrows of men. That is what love looks like."
"""Charity is the sweet and holy bond which links the soul with its Creator: it binds God with man and man with God."""
"We become what we love and who we love shapes what we become. If we love things, we become a thing. If we love nothing, we become nothing. Imitation is not a literal mimicking of Christ, rather it means becoming the image of the beloved, an image disclosed through transformation. This means we are to become vessels of God´s compassionate love for others. "
Giving is the nature of Love
Caring is the heart of Love
Doing is the proof of Love
Selfishness is the enemy of Love
“We have been called to heal wounds, to unite what has fallen apart, and to bring home those who have lost their way.”
“Above all the grace and the gifts that Christ gives to his beloved is that of overcoming self.”
“A humble soul does not trust itself, but places all its confidence in God.”
“Know that the greatest service that man can offer to God is to help convert souls.”
“The secret of happiness is to live moment by moment and to thank God for all that He, in His goodness, sends to us day after day.”
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again: for forgiveness has risen from the grave!”
-
"Let us love, since that is what our hearts were made for"
""""Spread love everywhere you go: first of all in your own house. Give love to your children, to your wife or husband, to a next door neighbor... Let no one ever come to you without leaving better and happier. Be the living expression of God's kindness; kindness in your face, kindness in your eyes, kindness in your smile, kindness in your warm greeting.""
""""The things that we love tell us what we are.""""
"What does love look like? It has the hands to help others. It has the feet to hasten to the poor and needy. It has eyes to see misery and want. It has the ears to hear the sighs and sorrows of men. That is what love looks like."
"""Charity is the sweet and holy bond which links the soul with its Creator: it binds God with man and man with God."""
"We become what we love and who we love shapes what we become. If we love things, we become a thing. If we love nothing, we become nothing. Imitation is not a literal mimicking of Christ, rather it means becoming the image of the beloved, an image disclosed through transformation. This means we are to become vessels of God´s compassionate love for others. "
Giving is the nature of Love
Caring is the heart of Love
Doing is the proof of Love
Selfishness is the enemy of Love
“We have been called to heal wounds, to unite what has fallen apart, and to bring home those who have lost their way.”
“Above all the grace and the gifts that Christ gives to his beloved is that of overcoming self.”
“A humble soul does not trust itself, but places all its confidence in God.”
“Know that the greatest service that man can offer to God is to help convert souls.”
“The secret of happiness is to live moment by moment and to thank God for all that He, in His goodness, sends to us day after day.”
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again: for forgiveness has risen from the grave!”
Behold
Well-Known Member
A short introduction to Hildegard of Bingen
-
"" She is considered a patron saint of musicians and writers.
A talented poet and composer, Hildegard collected 77 of her lyric poems, each with a musical setting composed by her, in Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum. Her numerous other writings included lives of saints; two treatises on medicine and natural history, reflecting a quality of scientific observation rare at that period; and extensive correspondence, in which are to be found further prophecies and allegorical treatises. She also for amusement contrived her own language. She traveled widely throughout Germany, evangelizing to large groups of people about her visions and religious insights.
Along with her impressive body of work and ethereal musical compositions, Hildegard is best known for her spiritual concept of Viriditas – “greenness” - the cosmic life force infusing the natural world. For Hildegard, the Divine manifested itself and was apparent in nature. Nature itself was not the Divine but the natural world gave proof of, existed because of, and glorified God. She is also known for her writings on the concept of Sapientia – Divine Wisdom – specifically immanent Feminine Divine Wisdom which draws close to and nurtures the human soul.
From a young age, she experienced ecstatic visions of light and sound, which she interpreted as messages from God. These visions were authenticated by ecclesiastical authorities, who encouraged her to write her experiences down. She would become famous in her own lifetime for her visions, wisdom, writings, and musical compositions, and her counsel was sought by nobility throughout Europe"
-
"" She is considered a patron saint of musicians and writers.
A talented poet and composer, Hildegard collected 77 of her lyric poems, each with a musical setting composed by her, in Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum. Her numerous other writings included lives of saints; two treatises on medicine and natural history, reflecting a quality of scientific observation rare at that period; and extensive correspondence, in which are to be found further prophecies and allegorical treatises. She also for amusement contrived her own language. She traveled widely throughout Germany, evangelizing to large groups of people about her visions and religious insights.
Along with her impressive body of work and ethereal musical compositions, Hildegard is best known for her spiritual concept of Viriditas – “greenness” - the cosmic life force infusing the natural world. For Hildegard, the Divine manifested itself and was apparent in nature. Nature itself was not the Divine but the natural world gave proof of, existed because of, and glorified God. She is also known for her writings on the concept of Sapientia – Divine Wisdom – specifically immanent Feminine Divine Wisdom which draws close to and nurtures the human soul.
From a young age, she experienced ecstatic visions of light and sound, which she interpreted as messages from God. These visions were authenticated by ecclesiastical authorities, who encouraged her to write her experiences down. She would become famous in her own lifetime for her visions, wisdom, writings, and musical compositions, and her counsel was sought by nobility throughout Europe"
Behold
Well-Known Member
Stick to the bible. Sorcerers have always been part of the axis of evil throughout the world. Moses delt with them before the pharaoh of Egypt. Saul called upon a seer (Mystic/Sorcerer) to raise Samuel from the dead. Paul delt with a seer and shut her mouth in order to render her powerless against the Gospel being preached. Today, evil abounds but so does God's grace. Right up until Jesus returns we will even see global persecution and global tribulation and hatred towards the elect of God. The greatest of all Sorcerer's will soon be making his entry on the world scene, the anti Christ. The bible refers to him as the "master" of deception. He will dupe everybody into taking his brand and once one is branded, they are now slaves. The number of the beast. We ain't seen nothin yet!
What are you talking about? You call yourself a Christian and consider Catholic saints as the good ones??? Why don't you look closely at the bible and read about those who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to WRITE THE BIBLE. They point to Jesus and the relationship He desires to have you YOU, YES YOU. You see yourself from the outside looking at other peoples relationship with Jesus, WHAT ABOUT YOURS. Do you even have one?
What about Fenelon?
The reason I ask is that all of these people mentioned seemed to have an overwhelming devotion to Christ. I have read them all and I noticed that none of them spoke anything about doctrine. The RCC also ended up persecuting them all. Lets take a look:
1. MADAME GUYON (1648–1717)
Status: Persecuted and imprisoned by the RCC (especially French church authorities influenced by Bishop Bossuet).
What happened:
she was persecuted and imprisoned by the RCC.
2. MIGUEL (MICHAEL) DE MOLINOS (1628–1696)
Status: Harshly persecuted, condemned, and imprisoned for life.
What happened:
he faced direct persecution by the Inquisition and died in prison.
3. FÉNELON (1651–1715)
Status: Opposed and condemned, but not imprisoned.
What happened:
He was doctrinally condemned, but not physically persecuted or imprisoned.
4. ST. JOHN OF THE CROSS (1542–1591)
Status: Yes — persecuted, imprisoned, and physically abused by Catholic authorities within his own order, though later canonized.
What happened:
The reason I ask is that all of these people mentioned seemed to have an overwhelming devotion to Christ. I have read them all and I noticed that none of them spoke anything about doctrine. The RCC also ended up persecuting them all. Lets take a look:
1. MADAME GUYON (1648–1717)
Status: Persecuted and imprisoned by the RCC (especially French church authorities influenced by Bishop Bossuet).
What happened:
- She taught a form of mysticism known as Quietism, emphasizing passive prayer and total surrender of the soul to God.
- Quietism was condemned by the Church as a dangerous spiritual passivity.
- Arrested in 1688, imprisoned in the Bastille, and placed under house arrest for many years.
- Her teachings were examined and officially condemned by Catholic authorities.
she was persecuted and imprisoned by the RCC.
Status: Harshly persecuted, condemned, and imprisoned for life.
What happened:
- Spanish priest, founder of the Quietist movement.
- Wrote The Spiritual Guide, promoting interior passivity and silent contemplation.
- The Inquisition arrested him in 1685.
- He was forced to confess under pressure, declared a heretic, and his works were banned.
- Sentenced to life imprisonment, where he died.
he faced direct persecution by the Inquisition and died in prison.
Status: Opposed and condemned, but not imprisoned.
What happened:
- Archbishop Fénelon sympathized with Madame Guyon’s mystical ideas.
- Wrote Maxims of the Saints defending a moderate form of Quietism.
- His work was examined in Rome and partially condemned by Pope Innocent XII in 1699.
- Fénelon submitted fully and remained in the Church.
He was doctrinally condemned, but not physically persecuted or imprisoned.
Status: Yes — persecuted, imprisoned, and physically abused by Catholic authorities within his own order, though later canonized.
What happened:
- He joined Teresa of Ávila to reform the Carmelite order (return to stricter spirituality).
- The unreformed Carmelite leadership opposed him.
- Kidnapped by his own order, put on trial, and imprisoned in a small cell in Toledo for about nine months.
- He was whipped, kept in harsh conditions, and nearly died.
- He eventually escaped and continued the Discalced Carmelite reform.
- Later recognized as a Doctor of the Church.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Reading the Bio's of Christian "Saints" (Pre-'1880) should be a requirement for any real bible student.
I require it of my students.
This type of study will help you grow spiritually, whereas chasing "Greek text" definitions, will only cause you to doubt the bible.....usually, as this is a different situation then learning Koine Greek, as in that case, its a good thing.
But to just read someone's Lexicon TRANSLATION (to get hooked on doing this)... leads you into "bible doubt" and will keep you there.
You dont want that, as once you are infected with bible correcting using Koine GREEK and Hebrew that you can't actually read... then the Bible can't be your spiritual medicine and support and revelation ever again.
= Be careful.
One of the things that is somewhat fascinating about this "Saints" study, is that it can free you from doctrinal lockdown, as you read and realize that God used many of these beautiful Christians in an awesome way, despite their lack of doctrinal expertise.
For example.... the MaryCult is filled with bible rejecting false teachings.... and 1500 yrs of just just the most incredibly innane and ridiculous "church fathers" nonsense.
However, many of the greatest Christian Saints, were Catholics........and their doctrinal ignorance didnt keep them from being a shining light for God.........just not doctrinally.
But what they had in common was a heart for God, and a ZEAL for Holiness along with an insatiable desire to serve God.
Here are a few.
1. St Francis
2. St. Bernadette
3. Mary Of Egypt.
4. Joan of Arc
5. St Bernard Of Clairvaux
6. Hildegard of Bingen
7. Dionysius
8. Richard of St. Victor
9. Gregory of Nyssa
10. Jeanne Guyon
Books you should get :
Foxe's Book Of Martyrs
The Screwtape Letters
Any book by : Jeanne Guyon is usually very interesting.
I require it of my students.
This type of study will help you grow spiritually, whereas chasing "Greek text" definitions, will only cause you to doubt the bible.....usually, as this is a different situation then learning Koine Greek, as in that case, its a good thing.
But to just read someone's Lexicon TRANSLATION (to get hooked on doing this)... leads you into "bible doubt" and will keep you there.
You dont want that, as once you are infected with bible correcting using Koine GREEK and Hebrew that you can't actually read... then the Bible can't be your spiritual medicine and support and revelation ever again.
= Be careful.
One of the things that is somewhat fascinating about this "Saints" study, is that it can free you from doctrinal lockdown, as you read and realize that God used many of these beautiful Christians in an awesome way, despite their lack of doctrinal expertise.
For example.... the MaryCult is filled with bible rejecting false teachings.... and 1500 yrs of just just the most incredibly innane and ridiculous "church fathers" nonsense.
However, many of the greatest Christian Saints, were Catholics........and their doctrinal ignorance didnt keep them from being a shining light for God.........just not doctrinally.
But what they had in common was a heart for God, and a ZEAL for Holiness along with an insatiable desire to serve God.
Here are a few.
1. St Francis
2. St. Bernadette
3. Mary Of Egypt.
4. Joan of Arc
5. St Bernard Of Clairvaux
6. Hildegard of Bingen
7. Dionysius
8. Richard of St. Victor
9. Gregory of Nyssa
10. Jeanne Guyon
Books you should get :
Foxe's Book Of Martyrs
The Screwtape Letters
Any book by : Jeanne Guyon is usually very interesting.
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I think some of them probably had a born again experience with the Lord. Trusting Jesus...not the rituals or the Catholic Church to save them. So they would be saved in spite of the Catholic Church's wrong teachings.
Do they have anything to teach us? No. Did they really know Jesus? I don't know but I'm skeptical.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I read Hildegard of Bingen's biography and life and some parts of visions. I saw no mention of Jesus. I saw God, and Holy Spirit. But her definition of the Holy Spirit was wrong. But not mentioning Jesus is very telling.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
These Catholic Saints had the divine touch of God on them,......... they were certainly born again.
To be honest, this is the first (in Behold's post) I have heard of Hildegard of Bingen. I do know the others I mentioned definitely talked about Jesus.
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