When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[TribulationSigns]

The two anointed witnesses are two olive trees and two candlesticks that will provide light unto the world as they preach the Word of God.

Not as two individuals but MANY (ELECT) of God's Church "represented" as olive trees and candlesticks preaching the Word of God (Truth).

The two witnesses will be clothed in sackcloth. Churches are not clothed in sackcloth.

Wrong. The Elect of the Church do get clothed in sackcloth? Do you even know why? It does not mean that we, Elect, must literally wear a sackcloth. Do you even know what sackcloth means in Scripture that the Elect wear?

The symbolism in Revelation of sackcloth is to signify that the elect prophecy in mourning. And if you doesn't think that the true Church's testimony is with sackcloth, then you either don't know the true state of most of mankind, or they don't really know what the sackcloth represents.

Matthew 5:4

• "Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted."

We mourn both for our own sins, and the sins of others. And those who do not mourn, do not know their sins, or the sins of the world, nor what is the end of such sin. As lot's soul was vexed by sin, so all true believers souls are troubled by sin. We grieve for the world, and sackcloth is that material which in scripture illustrates that grieving or mourning. This can be seen when people of the old testament would have reason to mourn they would cover themselves in sackcloth and/or ashes to signify their vexation.

Genesis 37:34

• "And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days."

2nd Samuel 3:31

• "And David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes, and gird you with sackcloth, and mourn before Abner. And king David himself followed the bier."

Ester 4:1-3

• "When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry.
• ..there was a great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and Ashes."

The sackcloth in scripture signifies a cloak of mourning. And that's what the two witnesses prophecy in! They are mourning for the fact that so few will receive the Word of God that they testify of, that they might be Saved. They know the end of such actions, and they are saddened by the state of man, and their knowledge that the Word of judgment is upon them for such rejections. In other words, the Word of God is as sweet as honey to us, but it is also bitter in that we know what it means to those who reject it. True Believers love their neighbor as themselves, and therefore desire the same for them which they themselves have received of God. And it is a great sadness when man rejects the truth they bring, for they know it is then judgement unto them. Therefore do they witness in mourning, their souls vexed or saddened knowing the judgement of God.

Selah!

 

[Douggg]

First, what is the purpose of saying "a Lamb as it had been slain, having Seven Horns, and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth?"

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

...because that is what John saw.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

...because that is what John saw.

And...?

So, are we supposed to expect an actual lamb physically standing on a throne—like, literally? With seven real horns and seven eyes? And 24 actual men just sitting around up there?

Or could it be—just maybe—these things carry spiritual meaning for our understanding?

Hmm... imagine that.

Seriously?

 

[Douggg]

The Witness of Truth. Elect of God! They come with the power of the Holy Ghost as fire coming out of their mouths. Not two literal individual fire-breathing individuals as you think!

The two witnesses will be two individual prophets as it says in Revelation 11:9-12.

Revelation 11:
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The two witnesses will be two individual prophets as it says in Revelation 11:9-12.

Revelation 11:
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

You have no clues about many things in the verses you quoted.

Two Prophets are the same as Two Witnesses - The anointed Elect of God with the Word of God for they are God's prophets! Not two individuals or prophets.

Now, let me ask you, how did the Two Witnesses (Elect) get killed after their 1,260 days of preaching the Salvation gospel? If the Elect is already spiritually secured, being born again, having the power of the Holy Spirit to preach Gospel truth, how do the enemies be able to overcome and kill them? Where will this take place? What do the "streets of the Great City" signify? And how do the Two Witnesses (Elect) resurrect from THAT death? Physical death?

Think carefully, examine with Scripture first. Then let us hear your answer on this.

 

[Douggg]

So, are we supposed to expect an actual lamb physically standing on a throne—like, literally? With seven real horns and seven eyes? And 24 actual men just sitting around up there?

John saw Jesus. Flanked by two visions about him. To one side of Jesus, a vision of a lion. To the other side of Jesus, the vision of the lamb.

Revelation 5:
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

 

[TribulationSigns]

John saw Jesus.

Duh!

That is the answer! This was what John beheld in Revelation 5:6! In the vision, John saw a lamb, which we know is Jesus Christ Himself! It will not be something that we will actually "see" a physical lamb sitting upon the throne or "see" a physical lion when we go into heaven, won't we?

Spiritual discernment 101!

But hey... don't stop here because you did not answer all the questions. Keep going. Who are the 24 elders? Four beasts?

 

[Douggg]

That is the answer! This was what John beheld in Revelation 5:6! In the vision, John saw a lamb, which we know is Jesus Christ Himself! It will not be something that we will actually "see" a physical lamb sitting upon the throne or "see" a physical lion when we go into heaven, won't we?

In Revelation 5:5, John also saw the vision of Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David. The lion and lamb are two visions about Jesus that flanked him.

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In heaven, we will see Jesus, as our Lord and Savior, sitting at the right hand of God the Father.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Revelation 5:5, John also saw the vision of Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David. The lion and lamb are two visions about Jesus that flanked him.

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In heaven, we will see Jesus, as our Lord and Savior, sitting at the right hand of God the Father.

Like I already said… DUH. Yes, we all know the Lamb is Christ. Congratulations on stating the obvious. You still haven’t shown how anything I said was incorrect. The seven horns, seven eyes, and seven spirits clearly symbolize Christ’s omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience. That’s basic theology—hello?!

So again, what exactly was the point of quoting the verse where John "beheld" the Lamb? And…? That somehow refutes anything? Because I’m not seeing it.

Also, it’s pretty telling that you’ve completely avoided addressing the 24 elders and the four living creatures that Christ is in the midst of, the same ones John saw in Revelation 5:4, which you quoted. Do you actually know who they are, or are we just quoting verses without understanding them?

 

[Douggg]

Now, let me ask you, how did the Two Witnesses (Elect) get killed after their 1,260 days of preaching the Salvation gospel? If the Elect is already spiritually secured, being born again, having the power of the Holy Spirit to preach Gospel truth, how do the enemies be able to overcome and kill them? Where will this take place? What do the "streets of the Great City" signify? And how do the Two Witnesses (Elect) resurrect from THAT death? Physical death?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

We are not given the details of how the beast overcomes them, and kills them.

Their bodies will lay dead in the street (singular) of Jerusalem. Two prophets, not a multitude of the Elect.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

In Revelation 11:11, God brings the two witnesses' dead bodies back to life. In Revelation 12:12, Jesus calls them up to heaven.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[Douggg]

I see that you refuse to explain who the 24 elders and the four beasts are that Christ is in the midst of.

We are not told by name who the 24 elders are.

In Revelation 4, the four beasts are described as far as their appearance and activity. But no expanded information about them.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

We are not given the details of how the beast overcomes them, and kills them.

Of course, you do not know because you have no clues who the beast is and how it will overcome and kill Two Witnesses. I knew that you would insist the beast is "one man" with supernatural man that will physically kill Two Witnessees but unable to figure out how. LOL.

Their bodies will lay dead in the street (singular) of Jerusalem.

Do you know what the street signifies in Scripture? Or do you believe God is talking Shuk-ha-Basamim Street in Jersualem where Two Witnesses will "physically die"?

Two prophets, not a multitude of the Elect.

Yes. They are the Elect, whether you like it or not. I already gave you Scirpture to support that! Two Witnesses - Witnesses of Truth. You reject the Gospel Truth about Two Witnesses becasue you are protecting your false doctrine and charts.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

What street is it if the great city spiritually is Sodom and Egypt? Was Christ crucified on that street? Humm?

In Revelation 11:11, God brings the two witnesses' dead bodies back to life.

How? What is the Spirit of Life? Explain this.

In Revelation 12:12, Jesus calls them up to heaven.

First, you got the wrong verse. It is Revelatino 11:12 but do you really understand this?

Rev 11:11-12

• And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
• And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

What is Spirit of Life? What does the stood upon their feet signify? What is the cloud signify in Scripture? Is it a puffy cloud out there in the sky?

 

[TribulationSigns]

We are not told by name who the 24 elders are.

Oh, yes God did. It is just that you do not know or understand what the elders means and the number 24 signifies. It is becasue...

Mat 13:13
(13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Luk 8:10
(10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Looks like that understanding hasn't been given to you "yet"—because clearly, you don’t know. You’re still missing the wisdom that comes from Christ, the kind that actually seeks God’s interpretation found in the Bible itself—not just surface-level quoting.

If you had that wisdom, you’d be able to explain who the 24 elders and the four living creatures are with Scripture, not speculation. But since you haven’t… well, that says enough.

In Revelation 4, the four beasts are described as far as their appearance and activity.

Huh? Show us what their appearance signifies and what activities you are talking about?! If you do not know, then obviously you do not fully understand Revelation 4:5, which you quoted.

But no expanded information about them.

Seriously? Have you read Revelation 4:6-7? Do you know what the spiritual signification of the Lion? Man? Calf? and Flying Eagles? And with full of eyes within?

 

[Douggg]

Like I already said… DUH. Yes, we all know the Lamb is Christ.

How about also knowing that Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David ?

 

[Douggg]

If you had that wisdom, you’d be able to explain who the 24 elders and the four living creatures are with Scripture, not speculation.

You have not given the names of each of the 24 elders.

 

[Douggg]

Huh? Show us what their appearance signifies and what activities you are talking about?!

Their activities are highlighted in red.

Revelation 4:
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

 

[TribulationSigns]

How about also knowing that Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David ?

Oh, brilliant observation—Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah? You don’t say! So should we also expect Him to come roaring out of a jungle next time, maybe with a golden mane and claws?

Let’s get real here—“Lion” is a title, a symbolic name representing Christ’s power, kingship, and authority. Just like “Lamb of God” doesn’t mean He’s literally a fluffy farm animal walking around with hooves and wool. These are spiritual representations, not literal zoo exhibits.

If we’re going to read every metaphor in Scripture like it’s National Geographic, we’re going to miss the entire message God is revealing spiritually. Time to stop reading the Bible like it’s a picture book and start seeking the deeper truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Their activities are highlighted in red.

Revelation 4:
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

That's all you know about the four beasts? Do you still not know who they are? Or do they represent? Seems you really do not know who they are. Let's read Revelation 5:8-9 carefully, that Revelation 4:8-9 refers to

Revelation 5:8-9

• "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
• And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

The four living creatures sung this song saying "they" were redeemed from every people. Can the four gospels sing? Are the four Apostles redeemed from every nation? Was Christ Himself redeemed so He would be singing as these four living creatures? No. So then, I would say this supports these four living creatures representing neither God specifically nor the gospels, but those in Christ redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. The Elect!

John 17:22-23

• "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
• I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The indwelling Spirit of God, through the Son forms a perfect bond of union, knitting us all together universally into a living unity, symbolized in the four living creatures!! The 24 elders, which you could not explain yet, also represent the Elect too! Both the living creatures and 24 Elders "are" the elect who fell down before the Lamb. Do you even know why the Elect are considered as Elders? Anyway, didn't Christ made them kings and priests?

Revelation 5:10

• "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Have these 4 living creatures been made kings and Priests who reign on earth?

Revelation 5:11

• And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Who are these messengers (not literal angels) round about the throne, beasts and elders? They are the Elect, the same messengers of Revelation chapter 12 who stood with Christ, and they are identified along with the 24 elders and 4 living creatures around and in the throne. It seems to me to be in total harmony. Especially since it says of the 24 elders and 4 living creatures, that God had made them unto God kings and priests and that they would reign on the earth. They are identified as those who had been redeemed by the blood of Christ. A physical angels werenote redeemed by Christ. And last but not least, they are those who came with the golden vials of prayers of saints. When everything points in one direction, perhaps we should look in that direction!

 

[Douggg]

That's all you know about the four beasts? Do you still not know who they are? Or do they represent? Seems you really do not know who they are. Let's read Revelation 5:8-9 carefully, that Revelation 4:8-9 refers to

Revelation 5:8-9

• "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
• And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

The four living creatures sung this song saying "they" were redeemed from every people. Can the four gospels sing? Are the four Apostles redeemed from every nation? Was Christ Himself redeemed so He would be singing as these four living creatures? No. So then, I would say this supports these four living creatures representing neither God specifically nor the gospels, but those in Christ redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. The Elect!

John 17:22-23

• "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
• I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The indwelling Spirit of God, through the Son forms a perfect bond of union, knitting us all together universally into a living unity, symbolized in the four living creatures!! The 24 elders, which you could not explain yet, also represent the Elect too! Both the living creatures and 24 Elders "are" the elect who fell down before the Lamb. Do you even know why the Elect are considered as Elders? Anyway, didn't Christ made them kings and priests?

Revelation 5:10

• "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Have these 4 living creatures been made kings and Priests who reign on earth?

Revelation 5:11

• And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Who are these messengers (not literal angels) round about the throne, beasts and elders? They are the Elect, the same messengers of Revelation chapter 12 who stood with Christ, and they are identified along with the 24 elders and 4 living creatures around and in the throne. It seems to me to be in total harmony. Especially since it says of the 24 elders and 4 living creatures, that God had made them unto God kings and priests and that they would reign on the earth. They are identified as those who had been redeemed by the blood of Christ. A physical angels werenote redeemed by Christ. And last but not least, they are those who came with the golden vials of prayers of saints. When everything points in one direction, perhaps we should look in that direction!

You have not given the names of each of the 24 elders.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have not given the names of each of the 24 elders.

LOL. Seriously? You're asking for the names of the 24 elders? What kind of shallow argument is that? Go ahead—show us where Scripture lists their names. I’ll wait.

You clearly missed the point. The number 24 isn't about literal headcounts with name tags—it's symbolic. Ever heard of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb? Together they form 24, representing the entire body of the Elect—from both the Old and New Testament.

And being called an Elder? That’s not a job title—it means they possess the spirit and wisdom of Christ. This is a picture of spiritual authority, not a church directory.

Savvy now?