When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, Romans 11 is not saying that there was a Jewish church which a Gentile church joined into being one church.

Romans11 is saying that salvation was offered to the Jews first. Individual Jews who rejected the gospel of salvation were branches that were cut off from God's olive tree. Individual Gentiles who originally were not branches in God's olive tree, were grafted in, once those individual Gentiles embraced the gospel of salvation.

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are two individuals who will preach the gospel of salvation. Not a Jewish church and a Gentile church.

Douggg, I'm not saying the two witnesses are two separate churches. You're not reading what I'm saying carefully at all. The two witnesses are described as two olive trees. In Romans 11, branches from a wild olive tree were grafted in with branches of the cultivated olive tree that had branches, representing Israelite unbelievers, cut off because of their unbelief. That results in one cultivated olive tree consisting only of Jew and Gentile believers. That represents the church. So, the two witnesses preach together as one because they represent the one body of Christ, which is the church.

The 42 months and 1260 days that the two witnesses are preaching and prophesying are not literal, but symbolically represent the time during which the church witnesses and preaches the gospel during the New Testament time period. Those time periods equate half of 7 years. The number 7 symbolically represents completeness, so half of that represents not all of time throughout history, but a certain part of time, which is the New Testament era.

It just makes no sense to interpret all Revelation 11 literally the way you do. Do you also think that the two witnesses, as two individuals, will be literally breathing fire out of their mouths to physically destroy their enemies?

 

[Douggg]

The two witnesses are described as two olive trees.

The two witnesses are described as two olive trees AND two candlesticks. There are no churches involved as being the two witnesses.

The 42 months and 1260 days that the two witnesses are preaching and prophesying are not literal, but symbolically represent the time during which the church witnesses and preaches the gospel during the New Testament time period.

The 42 months and 1260 days are symbolic ? No, those are two specific timeframes of 42 months and 1260 days.

It just makes no sense to interpret all Revelation 11 literally the way you do. Do you also think that the two witnesses, as two individuals, will be literally breathing fire out of their mouths to physically destroy their enemies?

Yes, the two witnesses will have supernatural powers. Also....

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The two witnesses are described as two olive trees AND two candlesticks. There are no churches involved as being the two witnesses.

Two olive trees and two candlesticks do not represent two individuals. In Revelation 1:20 candlesticks are said to represent churches, so how can they represent individuals instead? You don't use scripture to interpret scripture. What do olive trees represent in Romans 11? Individuals? No. But, you don't care if you make terms mean whatever you want them to mean instead of what they mean in scripture. You have proven that repeatedly.

The 42 months and 1260 days are symbolic ?

That's what I said.

No, those are two specific timeframes of 42 months and 1260 days.

No, they are not.

Yes, the two witnesses will have supernatural powers.

I didn't ask if they would have supernatural powers. I asked if you think they would literally breathe fire out of their mouths to destroy their enemies. I guess your answer to that question is "Yes"? LOL. That is utterly ridiculous. As if Jesus would want any of His followers to kill people and take vengeance into their own hands? Vengeance is the Lord's, remember? He teaches His followers to love our enemies, not kill them. He's not going to have anyone kill anyone. He will take vengeance on His enemies Himself when He returns (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

The fire coming out of their mouths to destroy their enemies is symbolic of the preaching of the gospel that refutes false teaching and brings condemnation to those who reject it.

Also....

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Do you know that all Christians have this kind of power at our disposal?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

There isn't anything that we can't do because we can "do all things through Christ" and He will do anything we ask in His name. Within reason, of course. There has to be a reason for it. Even though we could ask Him to "shut heaven" if we wanted or to turn the waters to blood there would have to be a valid reason for doing so. Revelation 11:6 is describing the power of those who are in the church and belong to Christ in a symbolic or hyperbolic way.

 

[Douggg]

In Revelation 1:20 candlesticks are said to represent churches, so how can they represent individuals instead?

Revelation 1:20 does not mean that every place candlesticks is used in the bible it refers to churches.

What does a candlestick do ? It gives off light. What does a candlestick burn to give off light ? It burns olive oil (from oil trees).

The two witnesses will be a light unto the world. They are metaphorically two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before God of the earth - during their 1260 days of ministry.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 1:20 does not mean that every place candlesticks is used in the bible it refers to churches.

Why would that term be used to refer to churches in Revelation 1:20, but individuals in another verse within the same book? That makes no sense.

What does a candlestick do ? It gives off light. What does a candlestick burn to give off light ? It burns olive oil (from oil trees).

The two witnesses will be a light unto the world. They are metaphorically two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before God of the earth - during their 1260 days of ministry.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These are things that you are just making up. You refuse to allow scripture to interpret scripture by considering what candlesticks represent in Revelation 1:20 and what olive trees represent in Romans 11.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, the two witnesses will have supernatural powers.

Please!! When will you ever learn to compare Scripture with Scripture to find out what God means by the fire coming out of the mouth?? God is not talking about the supernatural with by breathing fire out of the mouth! Have it ever occured in biblical history, literally? Of course not!

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

God's Word will come out as fire to judge those who do not want to hear the Truth. Not spew literal fire! Selah!

Also....

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Sigh....

Do you even know what “rain” or “water” refers to in Scripture? Or are you still thinking God is just talking about the weather forecast or literal H2O? Why is it so hard for you to open the rest of the Bible and let Scripture interpret Scripture? But no, let’s ignore that and pretend this is about turning oceans red and shutting off the clouds—because that’s easier than seeking spiritual meaning. Selah!

 

[ewq1938]

No, I maintain that the two witnesses are two individual persons who metaphorically are two candlesticks and two olive trees.

If you maintain that the two candle sticks are two churches. Then what two churches ?

Two ppl cannot be both two olive trees and two candlesticks/churches. There is a reason the 2W are two of one thing and two of another, two separate and different things. It's because one witness is the two churches, an unknown amount of people, then the other is the two olive trees which are the two people, called two prophets. Prohets are teachers, which is symb9olic of an olive tree providing the oil for teh candlestick which is an oil lamp.. It's a poor translation for modern English speakers. Not a wax candle or candle holder but an oil lamp that needs oil to create light.

 

[Douggg]

Two ppl cannot be both two olive trees and two candlesticks/churches.

I never said that the two witnesses - two persons - are two candlesticks/churches. The text does not have the word church in it. The word church is not in Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

There is a reason the 2W are two of one thing and two of another, two separate and different things. It's because one witness is the two churches, an unknown amount of people, then the other is the two olive trees which are the two people, called two prophets.

No, the two witnesses are not "two people" and "two churches of an unknown amount of people". The text of Revelation 11 does not have the word church in it.

Can you admit that neither the word "church", nor the word "churches", neither are in the text of Revelation 11 ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I never said that the two witnesses - two persons - are two candlesticks/churches. The text does not have the word church in it. The word church is not in Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


No, the two witnesses are not "two people" and "two churches of an unknown amount of people". The text of Revelation 11 does not have the word church in it.

Can you admit that neither the word "church", nor the word "churches", neither are in the text of Revelation 11 ?

The two witnesses are not the church? Lame!!! Learn to check with the rest of Scripture next time, like I did, below:

Rev 11:3-4

• And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
• These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

This means that God has bestowed upon them the power to prophecy, which they didn't have before. And that is why the word power is included in most translations. Without that Holy Spirit within us bearing witness with our spirit (Romans 8:16), we have no power and cannot be a true witness of God. Because these are the two things which make us a faithful witnesses of God. The Word and the His Spirit.

John 5:38-39

• "And ye have not His word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
• Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

John 15:26-27

• "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
• And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

The Word and the Holy spirit abiding in believers is what makes the faithful Church the witnesses of God. It is this Holy Spirit of truth which is the power which works in us and guides us to testify 'faithfully' to the gospel message. Every true believer is given this power to be a witness for God, and show the true form of the house.

Acts 5:32

• "And we are His Witnesses of these things: and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him".

God's Word declares that He 'has given' those who are obedient to His Word this power of the Holy Spirit that they are His witnesses. Again, the word power is implied there because God has given them the Holy Spirit. That is the power to witness. This is made clear throughout scripture. Whenever we go forth testifying that Jesus Christ is the Holy Temple which was destroyed, and in three days was risen from the dead that we might be made in His image, we are measuring the Temple by being a witness of God in the power of the Spirit which He has 'given' us.

Acts 10:42-43

• "And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead.
• To Him give all the prophets Witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him should receive remission of sins".

To all the Prophets it was given of God to bear witness to His Holy Word, and this is the very same commission given to the Church. To witness or testify of Him who was ordained of God to be judge of the earth, and that whosoever believes on His name, shall be Saved. So we see that the witnesses of God given power to prophecy is not some new theme.

Isaiah 43:10-12

• "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
• I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
• I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God."

Isaiah 44:8

• "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

These are witnesses who declare the form of the God of Israel. These are the witnesses that declare there is none other name whereby men may be Saved. These are the witnesses that declare that His law and His Word is the authority, and that judgment awaits those who disobey it. It is what God's witnesses within His congregation have always declared. These two witnesses of Revelation eleven are a 'symbol' of God's faithful servants, the true eternal indivisible Church. There are many scriptures which illustrate that the true Church is the designated witness of Christ, but notice how verse three of Revelation says, 'And I will give power unto My two Witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth.' So the question is, does this power to prophesy agree with what the scriptures say that God has given the faithful Church? Did God give unto His Church to prophesy? Again, when we compare scripture with scripture and consider things in an unbiased fashion, the Commission that Christ gave us is in full agreement with these things.

Acts 1:8

• "But ye shall Receive Power, after the Holy ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be Witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

This is the power which God gave unto His witnesses that they could prophecy to the world for this time period. It is the power of the Holy Spirit which was given God's witnesses at Pentecost. And because of this power given us, we come in His Spirit with the testimony of the law of God. This is just as Moses did, and just as prophets of God such as Elijah did. We, the true church, are these Witnesses and Prophets.

Selah!

 

[ewq1938]

I never said that the two witnesses - two persons - are two candlesticks/churches. The text does not have the word church in it. The word church is not in Revelation 11.

No English word was written by John.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


No, the two witnesses are not "two people" and "two churches of an unknown amount of people". The text of Revelation 11 does not have the word church in it.

Doesn't need to have it. A candlestick is a church.

Can you admit that neither the word "church", nor the word "churches", neither are in the text of Revelation 11 ?

I already know it. Can you admit that Rev says candlesticks are churches?

 

[Douggg]

I already know it. Can you admit that Rev says candlesticks are churches?

The text of Revelation does not say that candlesticks universally represent churches.

Just as stars do not universally represent angels.

Revelation 2:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 2:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

​

 

[ewq1938]

The text of Revelation does not say that candlesticks universally represent churches.

Great, which means you think the two witnesses are literally two trees. OR, candlesticks are in this case are a metaphor for churches and the olive trees are the two prophets.

 

[Douggg]

Great, which means you think the two witnesses are literally two trees. OR, candlesticks are in this case are a metaphor for churches and the olive trees are the two prophets.

No, no-one thinks the two witnesses are literally two trees.

The two witnesses are two individual persons who are metaphorically referred to as to two candlesticks and two olive trees.

Why are you trying so hard to insert two churches into Revelation 11 when churches are not mentioned in Revelation 11?
Are you trying to promote some sort of preterist view or historist view ?

Do you not think Revelation 11 is still future ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, no-one thinks the two witnesses are literally two trees.

The two witnesses are two individual persons who are metaphorically referred to as to two candlesticks and two olive trees.

Why are you trying so hard to insert two churches into Revelation 11 when churches are not mentioned in Revelation 11?
Are you trying to promote some sort of preterist view or historist view ?

Do you not think Revelation 11 is still future ?

Why do you make symbolic candlesticks represent something entirely different in Revelation 11:4 than what they represent in Revelation 1:20? He is being consistent by interpreting scripture with scripture and allowing Revelation 1:20 to tell him what candlesticks symbolically represent in the book of Revelation. Your approach to interpreting Revelation lacks any consistency. What is your explanation for that?

 

[Douggg]

Why do you make symbolic candlesticks represent something entirely different in Revelation 11:4 than what they represent in Revelation 1:20?

Because in Revelation 1:20 the candlesticks represent the seven Churches of Asia minor.

And in Revelation 11:4 the candlesticks represent the two witnesses.

He is being consistent by interpreting scripture with scripture and allowing Revelation 1:20 to tell him what candlesticks symbolically represent in the book of Revelation. Your approach to interpreting Revelation lacks any consistency. What is your explanation for that?

The metaphorical use of candlesticks means to be a light unto the nations. Which my interpretation is consistent with.

Also my interpretation of Revelation is that the like time expressions are grouped together. Do see the consistency to my approach?

Take a look at the 7 years. Is your view of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 consistent with the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 ? Is your view of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony of Revelation 12:3 consistent with the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 being the first half of the 7 years ?

 

[ewq1938]

No, no-one thinks the two witnesses are literally two trees.

The two witnesses are two individual persons who are metaphorically referred to as to two candlesticks and two olive trees.

Why are you trying so hard to insert two churches into Revelation 11 when churches are not mentioned in Revelation 11?

Two churches are mentioned. I don't insert anything. If the two trees are two persons (and they are) then scripture saying candlesticks are churches means the two candlesticks are two churches. This is extremely simplistic stuff.

 

[Douggg]

Two churches are mentioned. I don't insert anything. If the two trees are two persons (and they are) then scripture saying candlesticks are churches means the two candlesticks are two churches. This is extremely simplistic stuff.

The words "church", "churches" are not in the text of Revelation 11.

You are (wrongfully) rationalizing that there are two churches in Revelation 11.

 

[Davidpt]

The words "church", "churches" are not in the text of Revelation 11.

You are (wrongfully) rationalizing that there are two churches in Revelation 11.

The logic would have to be this, I would think. There are only 7 churches mentioned in Revelation. Therefore, the two witnesses are meaning 2 of them if meaning 2 churches. So which two then? Otherwise we end up with 9 churches in Revelation.

If they are meaning 2 of the 7 churches, my guess would be that they are meaning these two.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


As to the other 5 churches we see things such as this---

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Are the 2Ws meaning 2 churches? I don't know. But if they are, I demonstrated above what the logic would likely have to be in that case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because in Revelation 1:20 the candlesticks represent the seven Churches of Asia minor.

And in Revelation 11:4 the candlesticks represent the two witnesses.

LOL. But, what do the two witnesses represent? You say two individuals, but candlesticks don't represent individuals in the book of Revelation. But, that doesn't matter to you, obviously because you couldn't care less about being consistent.

The metaphorical use of candlesticks means to be a light unto the nations. Which my interpretation is consistent with.

That's consistent with your imagination, but not with any scripture.

Also my interpretation of Revelation is that the like time expressions are grouped together. Do see the consistency to my approach?

No.

Take a look at the 7 years. Is your view of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 consistent with the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 ?

There is no basis for linking those together. You are an expert at trying to relate unrelated scripture. Ask God for wisdom so that you stop doing that, Douggg (James 1:5-7).

Is your view of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony of Revelation 12:3 consistent with the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 being the first half of the 7 years ?

The 70th week is fulfilled, so I don't relate the 1260 days to the 70th week like you do. You should ask me questions that actually pertain to what I believe, but you don't care to even make any effort to understand what I believe and try to force your perspective onto me instead. This is a complete waste of time. We couldn't possibly be more different in our end times views if we tried.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. But, what do the two witnesses represent? You say two individuals, but candlesticks don't represent individuals in the book of Revelation. But, that doesn't matter to you, obviously because you couldn't care less about being consistent.

You are the one who is attempting to change the meaning of Revelation 11 by trying to insert two churches into the text by wrongful rationalization.

No.

Oh, so you can not see the consistency of grouping the like time expressions together. Yet, you don't provide any alternative diagram of how the 15 time of the end time expressions fit together.

The 70th week is fulfilled, so I don't relate the 1260 days to the 70th week like you do.

The 70th week is 7 years long. It not just the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony that fit within the 70th week, but all 15 time of the end time expressions.