When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[mjrhealth]

God wants you to know the truth......unaltered, undiminished

Exactly, thats why Gos gives us the Holy Spirit so He can circumvent the corrupt mind of men, but men would rathere believe there religious leader than teh one who is the truth, Jesus Christ, Lord of Lord, King of Kings, teh lamb slain since the beggining, teh light of teh word. rejected by men so they can have tehre religion, sorry false religions, all based on mens wisdon mens understanding and mens works neglecting that waht Jesus and God have done.

 

[epostle1]

No man builds junk than blames it all on God. The pride of man how it does such a disservice to our God and saviour. As for hating her you should.

I didn't say anything about the Church being solely built by man. That is a man made Protestant tradition.

Exactly, thats why Gos gives us the Holy Spirit so He can circumvent the corrupt mind of men, but men would rathere believe there religious leader than teh one who is the truth, Jesus Christ, Lord of Lord, King of Kings,

Jesus gave HIS authority to His appointed leaders to teach, resolve doctrinal disputes, declare heresies, anathematize, canonize the books of the Bible, further define the Trinity etc. He does not give that authority to individuals with a Bible. That is a man made Protestant tradition.
teh lamb slain since the beggining, teh light of teh word. rejected by men so they can have tehre religion, sorry false religions, all based on mens wisdon mens understanding and mens works neglecting that waht Jesus and God have done.

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. The example of the Jerusalem Council, which plainly shows the infallibility of the Church, has already been mentioned, along with a list of other scriptures.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).

And is any church and any teacher to be rejected who strays from God’s words, as Paul commands? That is the fundamental issue.

Sure; this is why we reject any form of Protestantism, because all fail the test of allegiance to God’s Word in Holy Scripture, and the historical pedigree that the fathers always taught was necessary. Every heretic in the history of the world thumbed their nose at the institutional Church and went by Scripture alone. It is the heretical worldview to do so, precisely because they know they can’t prove that their views were passed down through history in an unbroken succession.


Therefore, heresies and Protestantism either had to play games with history in order to pretend that it fits with their views, or ignore it altogether.

It is the pitting of the ultimate source against the secondary, human source (the Church) which is the problem in your approach and that of Protestantism in general. You guys don’t like human, institutional authority and don’t have enough faith to believe that God can and does preserve it, so you try to undermine it by fallacious arguments, as presently.

No doubt you aren’t even aware that you are doing it. To do this is automatic in Protestantism; it’s like breathing. It’s like the fish that doesn’t know it’s in water. It all comes from the rejection of the infallibility of the Church (which is one thing that sola Scriptura always entails).

In Galatians 1-2 Paul is referring to his initial conversion. But even then God made sure there was someone else around, to urge him to get baptized (Ananias: Acts 22:12-16). He received the revelation initially and then sought to have it confirmed by Church authority (Gal 2:1-2); then his authority was accepted or verified by James, Peter, and John (Gal 2:9). So we see that the Bible doesn’t pit the divine call directly from God, against Church authority, as you do. You do it because it is Protestant man-made tradition to do so; period, and because the Protestant has to always undermine the authority of the Church, and the Catholic Church, in order to bolster his own anti-system, that was set up against the historic Church in the first place.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.

 

[mjrhealth]

Oh so blind just as it says, the blind following the blind, and they all fall in the ditch. Oh everyone who stands against the RC church is a protestant, so easy to put them all in one basket, but that makes God Jesus and all the hosts of heaven and all the true believers protestants for you see .God cant agree with a lie, and your whole religion is a lie, but you love it that way as do all men. It wasnt enough that God should send His son to death for us, for Him to be humiliated and slain by the people He loved , that man should come along and make a whole religion out of it and than make men slaves of it, fearful that if the leave that the will not enter into heaven yet denying God because there is no faith in fear, As i said before If God was to send all the saints slain by your "church" to you to speak of what was done, you would not believe them, you have set your heart for your church and that is what you love, forever glorifying your church and denying God and Jesus the Glory they deserve. But what does it matter, God new from the very beginning that this was how it would be that men would deny Him, and teh works of His son so that they could glory in there works.Have you not read how animals can only produce after there own kind, see the catholic church can only produce catholics, Th Jw church JW;s the SDA church SDA's only Christ can produce Christians, but it is as He said, They worship me with there lips but there hearts are far from me. Yes man has being playing lip service to God for a long time, but now the time has come when they discover that religion cant save them and they cannot save themselves. It is why God always kept a few for Himself, knowing that they will only ever worship Him and His Son, Jesus giving them all teh glory for that is all they can do, knowing they are nothing but Jesus is everthing. And when that veil is finally lifted, man will see His foolishness and stand in his sorrow and shame, realising how arrogant and proud they are.

God bless

We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men.

That was achieved at the cross without your church. Religion can save no one, what foolishness is that.

 

[epostle1]

No man builds junk than blames it all on God. The pride of man how it does such a disservice to our God and saviour. As for hating her you should.

You keep missing the point, and insist that man builds the Church. which is a false man made Protestant tradition.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What part of I will build my church don't you understand?

What is the expiration date of this verse?

 

[mjrhealth]

You keep missing the point, and insist that man builds the Church. which is a false man made Protestant tradition.

He did, just as the Jw's who insist there church is the one Jesus built, and the SDA's the Protestant, the Russian orthodox, all the hundreds of variations of christian churches all just like you making that very same claim. But as it says, " men love it that way" there was a reason why Jesus insisted that the Apostles have no man rule over them , and your church and all the rest are that very reason. In the OT God told the israelites that He had a King for them, but they wanted to be like the gentiles even after He warned them of what would happen and here is the same thing in the guise of "church", men being made slaves by men not to serve God but to serve the religion..

 

[mjrhealth]

What part of I will build my church don't you understand?

Clearly you dont, He did it without the your church,

 

[epostle1]

He did, just as the Jw's who insist there church is the one Jesus built, and the SDA's the Protestant, the Russian orthodox, all the hundreds of variations of christian churches all just like you making that very same claim. But as it says, " men love it that way" there was a reason why Jesus insisted that the Apostles have no man rule over them , and your church and all the rest are that very reason. In the OT God told the israelites that He had a King for them, but they wanted to be like the gentiles even after He warned them of what would happen and here is the same thing in the guise of "church", men being made slaves by men not to serve God but to serve the religion..
Bishops and popes don't rule over others, that is a man made Protestant tradition. to think in those terms. The Bible tells us to be obedient to those in authority but that does not make them dictators. They are servants of the Gospel and most of them were good holy men. . If you can't understand that Jesus builds His Church on Peter , it isn't likely you would understand the 4 marks of God on His Church: One, Holy, Unversal (Catholic)and Apostolic Church. The Church can claim and prove these four divine attributes are hers in fullness. The Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ, but she is not the only church with truths. She recognizes that other churches are a means of salvation, grace and truth and in return we get insults from the low church types.

Clearly you dont, He did it without the your church,

Then what church was it?


Authority of the First Popes

 

[mjrhealth]

Then what church was it?

Men are Carnal God is spirit, religion is carnal its all about you, God is Spirit it all about Jesus and Gods plan for mankind, religion is like Egypt making slaves of men, You come here on a christian form and preach Catholicism not Christ crucified. HTE come here telling us we cant be saved by the law than tells us we need to keep the law to be saved. The problem is when you are not free in Christ than you walk in fear and so teh flesh seeks an easier way, there is only one plan of salvation through " Grace by faith in teh works that Jesus did, Gods plan not mans. Every one seeks Christs church here in this world, looking or a "physical" structure. yet it stares them in teh faith every day and they cannot see it. His church, if you must use that word, is made up of people, these people are led only By Christ, He is the head and the only one who is Head of His people. "

"My sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow"
"I am the door of the sheep"
I am teh way the truth hand the life no one "NO ONE" will enter in except through me"

Christ interest is in the salvation of mankind, not mens religions, when mankind finally figure that out and run from there religions and start following Him, teh world will be a better place. But it looks like men will never get it and so we must suffer much because of the Pride of man.

You want to belong to His church than seek Him and you will find it.

 

[epostle1]

Men are Carnal God is spirit, religion is carnal its all about you, God is Spirit it all about Jesus and Gods plan for mankind, religion is like Egypt making slaves of men,

Jesus builds His Church like Egypt?
or
What year did the Church turn into Egypt? How about you be the first to answer that question since no one else has.

You come here on a christian form and preach Catholicism not Christ crucified.

Most of my posts are DEFENSIVE in the face of misrepresentations, (putting it mildly) which runs in your blood stream . And we are not the ones with empty crosses.

come here telling us we cant be saved by the law than tells us we need to keep the law to be saved.

Use the quote feature and stop making things up.

The problem is when you are not free in Christ than you walk in fear and so teh flesh seeks an easier way, there is only one plan of salvation through " Grace by faith in teh works that Jesus did, Gods plan not mans.

That is a Catholic doctrine you borrowed from us.

Every one seeks Christs church here in this world, looking or a "physical" structure. yet it stares them in teh faith every day and they cannot see it. His church, if you must use that word, is made up of people, these people are led only By Christ, He is the head and the only one who is Head of His people. "

The Church uses structures, but the Church is a mystery, not a building. Who told you otherwise?

"My sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow"
"I am the door of the sheep"
I am teh way the truth hand the life no one "NO ONE" will enter in except through me"

I see you like to quote from what was originally a Catholic book. You need to do some reading on early church history.

Christ interest is in the salvation of mankind, not mens religions, when mankind finally figure that out and run from there religions and start following Him, teh world will be a better place. But it looks like men will never get it and so we must suffer much because of the Pride of man.

I can guess who you are talking about. I don't see Catholics persecuting your church, but I see lots of misrepresentations, lies, total falsehoods and bigotry coming from the likes of self appointed authorities and bible cults, billions of them. Find a Catholic site that persecutes you the way you do to us. That is a challenge.

You want to belong to His church than seek Him and you will find it.

Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?

Some Protestants usually claim that they all agree "on the important things." Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?

How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?

If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did?

Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

 

[mjrhealth]

How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?

The church in china survived without your religion and grew even with all teh persecution, they did it without your church, the yjust needed Jesus as we all do. Salvation is no where else.

Most of my posts are DEFENSIVE in the face of misrepresentations, (putting it mildly) which runs in your blood stream . And we are not the ones with empty crosses.

Defensive, yes because you are not walking in teh truth its called "offense". its what happens when teh truth is spoken and your flesh gets mad because your spirit and flesh dont agree, so you get mad, Its the flesh. Why do you think they killed Jesus. He spoke the truth and they got offended. Your choosing, find teh truth and He will set you free.

 

[epostle1]

He did, just as the Jw's who insist there church is the one Jesus built, and the SDA's the Protestant, the Russian orthodox, all the hundreds of variations of christian churches all just like you making that very same claim. But as it says, " men love it that way" there was a reason why Jesus insisted that the Apostles have no man rule over them , and your church and all the rest are that very reason. In the OT God told the israelites that He had a King for them, but they wanted to be like the gentiles even after He warned them of what would happen and here is the same thing in the guise of "church", men being made slaves by men not to serve God but to serve the religion..

Men are Carnal God is spirit, religion is carnal its all about you, God is Spirit it all about Jesus and Gods plan for mankind, religion is like Egypt making slaves of men, You come here on a christian form and preach Catholicism not Christ crucified. HTE come here telling us we cant be saved by the law than tells us we need to keep the law to be saved. The problem is when you are not free in Christ than you walk in fear and so teh flesh seeks an easier way, there is only one plan of salvation through " Grace by faith in teh works that Jesus did, Gods plan not mans. Every one seeks Christs church here in this world, looking or a "physical" structure. yet it stares them in teh faith every day and they cannot see it. His church, if you must use that word, is made up of people, these people are led only By Christ, He is the head and the only one who is Head of His people. ""My sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow"
"I am the door of the sheep"
I am teh way the truth hand the life no one "NO ONE" will enter in except through me"
Christ interest is in the salvation of mankind, not mens religions, when mankind finally figure that out and run from there religions and start following Him, teh world will be a better place. But it looks like men will never get it and so we must suffer much because of the Pride of man.
You want to belong to His church than seek Him and you will find it.

The church in china survived without your religion and grew even with all teh persecution, they did it without your church, the yjust needed Jesus as we all do. Salvation is no where else.
Defensive, yes because you are not walking in teh truth its called "offense". its what happens when teh truth is spoken and your flesh gets mad because your spirit and flesh dont agree, so you get mad, Its the flesh. Why do you think they killed Jesus. He spoke the truth and they got offended. Your choosing, find teh truth and He will set you free.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes Kepha the truth does that, just like Stan who is not is not interested just ignore. Cool and teh devil claims another victim to mans folly.

The evidence of teh fool who cares not for teh truth, God is ignored by most men for they prefer there religion to teh truth, Thanks for confriming to us all that fact.

 

[tom55]

The church in china survived without your religion and grew even with all teh persecution, they did it without your church, the yjust needed Jesus as we all do. Salvation is no where else.

Defensive, yes because you are not walking in teh truth its called "offense". its what happens when teh truth is spoken and your flesh gets mad because your spirit and flesh dont agree, so you get mad, Its the flesh. Why do you think they killed Jesus. He spoke the truth and they got offended. Your choosing, find teh truth and He will set you free.

You say "the church in China survived without your religion". What do you mean "without your religion"? Catholics are Christian. Are you saying that Catholics are not Christian?

The FACT is Christianity and the Catholic Church has survived in China even thru the persecution. So to say Christianity grew in China WITHOUT the Catholic Churches involvement is bearing false witness.

What do you mean when you say that Kepha31 is "not walking in teh (sic) truth" ?

Are you saying that only YOU know The Truth?

 

[tom55]

Yes Kepha the truth does that, just like Stan who is not is not interested just ignore. Cool and teh devil claims another victim to mans folly.

The evidence of teh fool who cares not for teh truth, God is ignored by most men for they prefer there religion to teh truth, Thanks for confriming to us all that fact.

Is it possible that "teh {sic} devil claims another victim to mans folly" is a reference to you also? How do you know YOU have The Truth?

How do you know that you are not "confriming {sic} to us all that fact"? Maybe you are the one ignoring God and the facts?

 

[mjrhealth]

How do you know YOU have The Truth?

Because Jesus is the truth and in Him teher is no lie

"? Maybe you are the one ignoring God and the facts?

There are lots of "fact" written through the pages of history that you all choose to ignore, you say we have no evidence yet it is everywher you just choose not to see.

Are you saying that only YOU know The Truth?

That would be foly all who have Christ have teh truth for He is the truth.

 

[heretoeternity]

MJRH seems to come against the Roman church, yet defends their policies of ignoring the Ten commandments of God, and the words of Jesus in the Gospels. Is his church one of the daughters? Revelation 17? Sounds like it!

Remember always: Salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments (repentance), NOT the sun/god/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origins.

 

[mjrhealth]

yet defends their policies of ignoring the Ten commandments

Stii ldont grt it, such is the fate of the religious.

Some choose grace some choose the law, its only grace that saves. So blind

 

[heretoeternity]

See, you are following pagan Roman church philosphy...they don't believe in repentance..you are the same...wake up, and learn the truth....
You can be saved alright by grace, but after that you should repent (turn away from sin, which is transgression of God's law)...if you don't repent you are not saved..in Romans Paul says "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid"...you should understand that by now...
No repentance, No Salvation...unless of course you believe your pastor or the pope can save you!

 

[mjrhealth]

See, you are following pagan Roman church philosphy...they don't believe in repentance..you are the same...wake up, and learn the truth....
You can be saved alright by grace, but after that you should repent (turn away from sin, which is transgression of God's law)...if you don't repent you are not saved..in Romans Paul says "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid"...you should understand that by now...
No repentance, No Salvation...unless of course you believe your pastor or the pope can save you!

HTE the only sinless person besides Jesus, oh what folly.

 

[epostle1]

The splendour of truth shines forth in all the works of the Creator and, in a special way, in man, created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen 1:26). Truth enlightens man's intelligence and shapes his freedom, leading him to know and love the Lord. Hence the Psalmist prays: "Let the light of your face shine on us, O Lord" (Ps 4:6).

Jesus Christ, the true light that enlightens everyone

1. Called to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, "the true light that enlightens everyone" (Jn 1:9), people become "light in the Lord" and "children of light" (Eph 5:8), and are made holy by "obedience to the truth" (1 Pet 1:22).

This obedience is not always easy. As a result of that mysterious original sin, committed at the prompting of Satan, the one who is "a liar and the father of lies" (Jn 8:44), man is constantly tempted to turn his gaze away from the living and true God in order to direct it towards idols (cf. 1 Thes 1:9), exchanging "the truth about God for a lie" (Rom 1:25). Man's capacity to know the truth is also darkened, and his will to submit to it is weakened. Thus, giving himself over to relativism and scepticism (cf. Jn 18:38), he goes off in search of an illusory freedom apart from truth itself.

But no darkness of error or of sin can totally take away from man the light of God the Creator. In the depths of his heart there always remains a yearning for absolute truth and a thirst to attain full knowledge of it. This is eloquently proved by man's tireless search for knowledge in all fields. It is proved even more by his search for the meaning of life. The development of science and technology, this splendid testimony of the human capacity for understanding and for perseverance, does not free humanity from the obligation to ask the ultimate religious questions. Rather, it spurs us on to face the most painful and decisive of struggles, those of the heart and of the moral conscience.

2. No one can escape from the fundamental questions: What must I do? How do I distinguish good from evil? The answer is only possible thanks to the splendor of the truth which shines forth deep within the human spirit, as the Psalmist bears witness: "There are many who say: 'O that we might see some good! Let the light of your face shine on us, O Lord' " (Ps 4:6).
The light of God's face shines in all its beauty on the countenance of Jesus Christ, "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15), the "reflection of God's glory" (Heb 1:3), "full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14). Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6).

Consequently the decisive answer to every one of man's questions, his religious and moral questions in particular, is given by Jesus Christ, or rather is Jesus Christ himself, as the Second Vatican Council recalls: "In fact,it is only in the mystery of the Word incarnate that light is shed on the mystery of man. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of the future man, namely, of Christ the Lord. It is Christ, the last Adam, who fully discloses man to himself and unfolds his noble calling by revealing the mystery of the Father and the Father's love".

Jesus Christ, the "light of the nations", shines upon the face of his Church, which he sends forth to the whole world to proclaim the Gospel to every creature (cf. Mk 16:15) Hence the Church, as the People of God among the nations, while attentive to the new challenges of history and to mankind's efforts to discover the meaning of life, offers to everyone the answer which comes from the truth about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. The Church remains deeply conscious of her "duty in every age of examining the signs of the times and interpreting them in the light of the Gospel, so that she can offer in a manner appropriate to each generation replies to the continual human questionings on the meaning of this life and the life to come and on how they are related".

Veritatis Splendor (the Splendor of Truth)
Pope John Paul II