When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[tom55]

Tom,

That is not the Roman Catholic understanding of apostolic succession which states:


Now to those 'pieces of plastic' that have such real value to the RCC people in prayer.


There is not a shred of evidence in support of rosary beads in Scripture. ZERO.


Regarding the worship of Mary, this RC priest wrote, 'When Marian devotion plays its proper part in the life of the Church we also start to realize what real worship is, and how important the sacrifice of the Mass is to everything else' ('Do Catholics Worship Mary?')


Yes, there are some married RC priests (e.g. in Ireland), but they are in violation of what the Pope teaches. I suggest you become better informed about the Pope's view on the need for celibacy in the priesthood:


As for purgatory,

Ha, ha! You mean the real Bible, containing the Apocrypha, that includes the fanciful teaching of (1) Tobit, and (2) Bel and the Dragon. The Apocrypha that teaches:

Endorsement of magic:

It violates the teaching on forgiveness in Scripture:

• Tobit 4:11, "For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness."
• Tobit 12:9, "For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting."

There are historical errors in the Apocrypha:

• Judith 1:5, "Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him."
• Baruch 6:2, "And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace."
• The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.
• Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. "And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

So you want me to believe in Purgatory that is contained in a book of the Apocrypha that has such errors in it. Try another one, Tom! :wub: This verse states: 2 Maccabees 12:45, 'But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin'.

Will I be clean and sinless when I die? At the point of my commitment to Christ, I was justified (declared righteous) by faith. Romans 5:1 (ESV) puts it this way, 'Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ'. So I have been declared righteous by God through my faith in Jesus Christ. It is a legal act that God does at the point of conversion that makes me righteous and at peace with Him. I do not have to depend on some purgatorial experience to make me clean after death. Righteousness before God is mine NOW.

Oz

APOSTOLIC SUCCESION: Thank you for providing that link from Catholic Answers about Apostolic Succession. By using scripture the article further backs up what I said: The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

ROSARY: I never said there was "a shred of evidence in support of rosary beads in Scripture". If I did say that, please quote me.

WORSHIPING MARY: What you partially quoted from that article doesn't say anything about Catholics worshiping Mary. What it does say is there are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2)
Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary. We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation..... She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth. The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being. But it is not latria. We’re clear about that. We do not worship Mary.

OZ......Do you ever get tired of not fully quoting or miss-quoting people to fit your agenda??


MARRIED PRIEST: If you can't do a simple Google search and figure out that Catholic Priest CAN BE MARRIED then there is noting I can do to change your mind. There are married Catholic Priest and they do not have to be celibate. If one CHOOSES to be a Priest they then AGREE to be celibate. Priesthood is not FORCED upon them. The RCC priest that are married were ordained by the RCC and they are NOT "in violation of what the Pope teaches". FURTHERMORE, it is not a matter of what the Pope teaches, it is a matter of RCC teaching. The link you provided is not a Catholic website. It is more of an anti-Catholic website. They are a group of people who claim to be Catholic and want to reform the Catholic Church.

So you do not have to depend on some purgatorial experience to make you clean after death. Righteousness before God is yours NOW. So right NOW you think you are righteous. My question was; Will you be clean or sinless when you die??

 

[Mungo]

Endorsement of magic:

Tobit 6:5-7, "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."

Oz

In that case, so does the book of Exodus

In Exodus chap 7 Aaron performs magic:
10….Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts.
12 For every man cast down his rod, and they became serpents….

 

[tom55]

It seems no one can answer my question:

When did that universal Church, being led by a bishop or bishops, stop being universal and stop being led by bishop(s)??

 

[OzSpen]

So you do not have to depend on some purgatorial experience to make you clean after death. Righteousness before God is yours NOW. So right NOW you think you are righteous. My question was; Will you be clean or sinless when you die??

You don't understand Romans 5:1 (ESV), 'Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Christians 'have been justified by faith'. The verb for 'have been justified' is dikaiwthenies, the aorist, passive participle of didaiow. it refers to a past and decisive (point action of the aorist tense) act of God by which those who have faith in Christ have been pronounced or declared righteous'. It's forensic language of the law courts and God in heaven at the point of my faith in Christ has declared me guiltless before him. God, the Judge, has already made the judgment of my life and I am declared righteous before Him. That's why Christians can 'have peace with God'.

It has nothing to do with whether I am sinless when I die. The righteousness of God was declared on all people who have faith in Jesus so that they can enter God's presence.

You are confusing present ability to sin with God's legal action of declaring the true believer righteous so that he or she can enter God's presence. Before God, I and all other true believers who have faith in Jesus, I have been pronounced righteous.


Romans 3:28 (ESV) confirms the same message: 'For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law'. No works will do it for any Christian. It's the work of God entirely, a forensic act of declaration of righteousness before God.

I praise God that it does not depend on my sinlessness at the point of death. Thus, there is no need for purgatory to cleanse me further after death. It has already been done by Christ through my faith in him. What a wonderful Saviour!

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

In that case, so does the book of Exodus

In Exodus chap 7 Aaron performs magic:
10….Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts.
12 For every man cast down his rod, and they became serpents….

Mungo,

This is what happens when you don't read the text in context. This is what Exodus 7:1-13 (ESV) states:

And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2 You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgement. 5 The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.” 6 Moses and Aaron did so; they did just as the Lord commanded them. 7 Now Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron eighty-three years old, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
8 Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle’, then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” 10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

There is not a word here about magic. It is all about the Lord acting on Pharaoh with signs and wonders. How dare you attribute to an occult source what God has stated HE did.

You have deliberately changed what Exodus 7 states so that you can justify the RCC support of magic from the apocryphal Book of Tobit. What did God do with the magic of Pharaoh's 'wise men and the sorcerers'? It 'swallowed up their staffs', not because Aaron performed magic, but because Aaron was acting according to God's instruction, 'just as the Lord commanded'.

It amazes me how you have twisted the Scriptures here to make them say what they don't say.

Oz

 

[tom55]

You don't understand Romans 5:1 (ESV), 'Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Christians 'have been justified by faith'. The verb for 'have been justified' is dikaiwthenies, the aorist, passive participle of didaiow. it refers to a past and decisive (point action of the aorist tense) act of God by which those who have faith in Christ have been pronounced or declared righteous'. It's forensic language of the law courts and God in heaven at the point of my faith in Christ has declared me guiltless before him. God, the Judge, has already made the judgment of my life and I am declared righteous before Him. That's why Christians can 'have peace with God'.
It has nothing to do with whether I am sinless when I die. The righteousness of God was declared on all people who have faith in Jesus so that they can enter God's presence.
You are confusing present ability to sin with God's legal action of declaring the true believer righteous so that he or she can enter God's presence. Before God, I and all other true believers who have faith in Jesus, I have been pronounced righteous.
Romans 3:28 (ESV) confirms the same message: 'For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law'. No works will do it for any Christian. It's the work of God entirely, a forensic act of declaration of righteousness before God.
I praise God that it does not depend on my sinlessness at the point of death. Thus, there is no need for purgatory to cleanse me further after death. It has already been done by Christ through my faith in him. What a wonderful Saviour!

Oz

He is a wonderful Savior. Not sure what being justified by faith has to with nothing unclean will enter heaven. But if your theory makes you feel better....I wish you luck.

I will admit that the purgatory teaching (theory) put forth by the RCC is not clearly addressed in scripture, however, it makes sense especially in conjunction with the scripture they use to back it up.

 

[OzSpen]

He is a wonderful Savior. Not sure what being justified by faith has to with nothing unclean will enter heaven. But if your theory makes you feel better....I wish you luck.

I will admit that the purgatory teaching (theory) put forth by the RCC is not clearly addressed in scripture, however, it makes sense especially in conjunction with the scripture they use to back it up.

God, the Judge, has declared me righteous before him by his action through my faith in Jesus Christ. It's a result of God's instantaneous action when I place my faith in Jesus.

There is none of Oz's theory here, but all of God's teaching on justification by faith (Rom 5:1 ESV). It doesn't make me feel better. Feelings don't come into it. Facts do! The fact is that people who put their faith in Jesus for salvation are declared righteous in the past.

That makes purgatory an irrelevant teaching. There is nothing further to cleanse as Christians are declared righteous at the point of their faith. End of story! opcorn:

Oz

 

[Mungo]

Mungo,

This is what happens when you don't read the text in context. This is what Exodus 7:1-13 (ESV) states:

There is not a word here about magic. It is all about the Lord acting on Pharaoh with signs and wonders. How dare you attribute to an occult source what God has stated HE did.

You have deliberately changed what Exodus 7 states so that you can justify the RCC support of magic from the apocryphal Book of Tobit. What did God do with the magic of Pharaoh's 'wise men and the sorcerers'? It 'swallowed up their staffs', not because Aaron performed magic, but because Aaron was acting according to God's instruction, 'just as the Lord commanded'.

It amazes me how you have twisted the Scriptures here to make them say what they don't say.

Oz

Oz

I'm perfectly aware of the context. You seem to have missed the point.

I was demonstrating a parallel between Exodus and Tobit. Yet you ascribe one to God and the other to magic. Why?

Why not ascribe the events in Tobit to God? The instructions Tobias received were from an angel of God sent by God to help Tobias and Tobit..

There are other examples in scripture that you can ascribe to magic or to God (e.g. Elisha purifying water with salt, Naaman being cured of leprosy by bathing in the Jordan, Moses seperating the water of the Red Sea).

Are they magic or are they acts God?

If they are acts of God why was not the expulsion of the demon or the curing of Tobit not acts of God also?

"And Raphael was sent to heal the two of them: to scale away the white films of Tobit's eyes; to give Sarah the daughter of Raguel in marriage to Tobias the son of Tobit, and to bind Asmodeus the evil demon, because Tobias was entitled to possess her." (Tobit 3:17)

 

[OzSpen]

Oz

I'm perfectly aware of the context. You seem to have missed the point.

I was demonstrating a parallel between Exodus and Tobit. Yet you ascribe one to God and the other to magic. Why?

Why not ascribe the events in Tobit to God? The instructions Tobias received were from an angel of God sent by God to help Tobias and Tobit..

There are other examples in scripture that you can ascribe to magic or to God (e.g. Elisha purifying water with salt, Naaman being cured of leprosy by bathing in the Jordan, Moses seperating the water of the Red Sea).

Are they magic or are they acts God?

If they are acts of God why was not the expulsion of the demon or the curing of Tobit not acts of God also?

"And Raphael was sent to heal the two of them: to scale away the white films of Tobit's eyes; to give Sarah the daughter of Raguel in marriage to Tobias the son of Tobit, and to bind Asmodeus the evil demon, because Tobias was entitled to possess her." (Tobit 3:17)

You don't seem to be able to differentiate between miracles and magic. When you understand the nature of God, you 'll see that miracles demonstrate the power of God, not the power of sorcery.

Read the whole of Tobit and you read weird things that are contrary to other parts of Scripture.

Oz

 

[tom55]

God, the Judge, has declared me righteous before him by his action through my faith in Jesus Christ. It's a result of God's instantaneous action when I place my faith in Jesus.

There is none of Oz's theory here, but all of God's teaching on justification by faith (Rom 5:1 ESV). It doesn't make me feel better. Feelings don't come into it. Facts do! The fact is that people who put their faith in Jesus for salvation are declared righteous in the past.

That makes purgatory an irrelevant teaching. There is nothing further to cleanse as Christians are declared righteous at the point of their faith. End of story! opcorn:

Oz

End of story?? You should have said "end of theory".

Nothing further to cleanse since we are declared righteous at the point of faith? There are ALOT of people who have faith in or believe in Jesus and his teachings....but they are far from righteous. And your theory is they will enter heaven just like the righteous person? (that's what I understand you to be saying)

You don't need to answer. You will probably confuse me more.

 

[Mungo]

You don't seem to be able to differentiate between miracles and magic.

:lol: That's hilarious! YOU are the one who cannot differentiate.

But I get the difference.
If you say it's a miracle then it's a miracle.
If you say it's sorcery then it's sorcery.

When you understand the nature of God, you 'll see that miracles demonstrate the power of God, not the power of sorcery.

Yes, and that is why what happened in Tobit is the power of God not sorcery.

Read the whole of Tobit and you read weird things that are contrary to other parts of Scripture.

I have read it all thank you. It's a very good book of scripture.

Many weird things happen in scripture - for example being swallowed by a big fish and regurgitated on the shore alive and well. That doesn't stop them being scriptural - unless of course you decide they are sorcery and not miracles.

 

[Mungo]

Duplicate post

 

[OzSpen]

End of story?? You should have said "end of theory".

Nothing further to cleanse since we are declared righteous at the point of faith? There are ALOT of people who have faith in or believe in Jesus and his teachings....but they are far from righteous. And your theory is they will enter heaven just like the righteous person? (that's what I understand you to be saying)

You don't need to answer. You will probably confuse me more.

You still miss the point. My being far from righteous is not dealing with the biblical teaching on justification by faith. God declares me righteous by faith. He's the judge in the court and had already determined I'm righteous before him. It's a forensic act by God.

Romans 3:28 (ESV) and Romans 5:1 (ESV) seem to be outside the realm of your theological understanding.

By the way, this is not my theory. This is the teaching of biblical Christianity. I have provided the exegesis for you of the word used for 'justified' and I'll not be repeating that.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

:lol: That's hilarious! YOU are the one who cannot differentiate.

But I get the difference.
If you say it's a miracle then it's a miracle.
If you say it's sorcery then it's sorcery.

I showed you how Exodus 7:1-13 (ESV) was God's miracle in action and not sorcery. God performed signs and wonders and that included devouring what the sorcerers had conjured.

 

[Mungo]

I showed you how Exodus 7:1-13 (ESV) was God's miracle in action and not sorcery. God performed signs and wonders and that included devouring what the sorcerers had conjured.

And equally the driving away of the demon and the curing of Tobit was not sorcery.
Raphael was an angel sent by God for that very purpose, in answer to the prayers of Tobit and Sarah, as the quote I gave demonstrated.

What right have you to call God's miracles sorcery?

You asked me "How dare you attribute to an occult source what God has stated HE did."

I ask you the same - How dare you attribute to an occult source what God did?

 

[tom55]

You still miss the point. My being far from righteous is not dealing with the biblical teaching on justification by faith. God declares me righteous by faith. He's the judge in the court and had already determined I'm righteous before him. It's a forensic act by God.

Romans 3:28 (ESV) and Romans 5:1 (ESV) seem to be outside the realm of your theological understanding.

By the way, this is not my theory. This is the teaching of biblical Christianity. I have provided the exegesis for you of the word used for 'justified' and I'll not be repeating that.

Oz

No need to repeat your un-biblical theory. As you know (or should know) Romans 3:28 is a Jewish-Gentile debate and you are ignoring the historical and textual context of it.

All I know is that God will repay each person according to what they have done and to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I also know how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I could give MANY more scriptural references that destroys your theory but you have found in scripture what you have decided to believe and ignored everything else that destroys that belief.

I think Peter was Satan (Mathew 16:23) and you can't prove me wrong.

 

[OzSpen]

I also know how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Tom,

See, Does James Contradict Paul? by John Piper.

I'm on the Bible's side of the justification truth.

Oz

 

[Mungo]

I also know how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Tom,

See, Does James Contradict Paul? by John Piper.

I'm on the Bible's side of the justification truth.

Oz

James does not contradict Paul, James contradicts Protestants erroneous interpretation of Paul.

 

[tom55]

I also know how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Tom,

See, Does James Contradict Paul? by John Piper.

I'm on the Bible's side of the justification truth.

Oz

I also am on the bibles side: I think Peter was Satan (Mathew 16:23) and you can't prove me wrong.

I agree with you we are "justified by faith" (Romans 5) but scripture doesn't end there. We are also "justified by works" which we should practice as well for salvation. (James 2:14-17). We know the word of God can not contradict itself. "Both are true and together they bring Christ the glory due his name."

It seems to me you are saying that scripture says all you need is faith????? (I may be misunderstanding you)

If that is what you are saying Scripture clearly shows YOU are contradicting scripture.

 

[tom55]

I also know how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Tom,

See, Does James Contradict Paul? by John Piper.

I'm on the Bible's side of the justification truth.

Oz

This is from the article from John Piper that YOU quoted: "Both are true and together they bring Christ the glory due his name."

Seems the source you provided that you were using as proof that you are right doesn't even agree with your belief. :wub:

What does your salvation by faith point have to do with my question: When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?