When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[Mungo]

Are you denying that the Catechism say's "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them'? (the answer to this should be a simple YES or NO)

Sorry but a simple Yes or No will not suffice. Catholic teaching and Catholic documents are very subtle.

For example what Canon XIX of Session 6 the Council of Trent actually says is:
CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.
Another translation says in no way rather than nowise.

Nowise (or in no way) implies that there are somewise ( or in some way) that the Ten Commanments do not appertain to Christians, which is what I am arguing.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:
1. Before God gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites in the desert at Sinai, were people allowed to murder, steal, rape, commit adultery etc.?
2. If they were not, then why not, since they hadn't been given the Ten Commandments?

 

[tom55]

Sorry but a simple Yes or No will not suffice. Catholic teaching and Catholic documents are very subtle.

For example what Canon XIX of Session 6 the Council of Trent actually says is:
CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.
Another translation says in no way rather than nowise.

Nowise (or in no way) implies that there are somewise ( or in some way) that the Ten Commanments do not appertain to Christians, which is what I am arguing.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:
1. Before God gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites in the desert at Sinai, were people allowed to murder, steal, rape, commit adultery etc.?
2. If they were not, then why not, since they hadn't been given the Ten Commandments?

It is a simple yes OR no: Are you denying that section 2068 says: The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them'?

This is a very simple and straight forward question that can either be confirmed or denied. No opinions involved.

 

[Mungo]

Not sure why you ended up pointing out and arguing (with yourself I might add) about the 4th Commandment since my disagreement with you is not about the 4th Commandment. It is about you not fully quoting YOUR OWN SOURCE, the Catechism.

I'm trying to point out that if you take para 2068 as you want to understand it then the Catechism is contradicting itself since it teaches that we do NOT keep the sabbath, as does Saint Pope John Paul II

 

[Mungo]

It is a simple yes OR no: Are you denying that section 2068 says: The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them'?

This is a very simple and straight forward question that can either be confirmed or denied. No opinions involved.

It's a bit like a - "have you ceased beating your wife" kind of question. It's not that simple Tom. There is a way in that the Ten Commandments are obligatory but there also a way that they are not. It comes down to understanding what the Ten Commandments are and what they are not.

 

[tom55]

I'm trying to point out that if you take para 2068 as you want to understand it then the Catechism is contradicting itself since it teaches that we do NOT keep the sabbath, as does Saint Pope John Paul II

The Catechism does not contradict itself since it clarifies that the New Sabbath is on Sunday, not Saturday. Look at 2175 and 2176 in the Catechism.

 

[tom55]

It's a bit like a - "have you ceased beating your wife" kind of question. It's not that simple Tom. There is a way in that the Ten Commandments are obligatory but there also a way that they are not. It comes down to understanding what the Ten Commandments are and what they are not.

It is that simple Mungo: http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#520/z

 

[heretoeternity]

Tom,

I don't seem to be able to get my points across to you. But because you cannot follow an argument please do not accuse me of being dishonest

But tell me - do you observe the sabbath as instructed in the Ten Commandments?

Does the Catechism say we are to observe the sabbath?

Answer - No!
"2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week.........." (yes I have missed a lot out!)

It then quotes St. Ignatius of Antioch:
"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death".?

So how do you square that with we are obliged to keep the Ten Commandments with the Catechism saying that we do not keep opne of them?.

BTW
Pope John Paul II wrote:
We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi! (Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, Pope John Paul II, 1998 – para 18).









Jesus said he is Lord of the Sabbath day..which is the 7th day of the week Mark 2....sounds like anti christ is lord of the 1st day of the week, as the pope has NO scriptural authority to change the Holy day which God created in Genesis 2...

 

[Mungo]

The Catechism does not contradict itself since it clarifies that the New Sabbath is on Sunday, not Saturday. Look at 2175 and 2176 in the Catechism.

No Tom, the Sabbath is not on Sunday.

I quoted 2175 to you in post #199. Do you not bother to read what I post?
"2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week.........." (yes I have missed a lot out!).
Read that again "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath". It's not a "New Sabbath" Sabbath is Saturday. We worship on Sunday.

Then the quote from Ignatous of Antioch - from the Catechism:
"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death".?
Read that again "no longer keeping the sabbath". We do not keep the sabbath.

Saint Pope John Paul II
"We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath, from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!"
Read that again "We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath". We have moved from the sabbath

 

[Mungo]

Tom,

This is getting to be a very one way conversation.
You ask questions. I have to anmswer them.

However,
I post explanations backed up by scripture. You ignore them.
I ask questions. You ignore them

Please answer the following questions from post #201
1. Before God gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites in the desert at Sinai, were people allowed to murder, steal, rape, commit adultery etc.?
2. If they were not, then why not, since they hadn't been given the Ten Commandments?

 

[Mungo]

It is that simple Mungo: http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#520/z

I don't know what your link is supposed to be for.
It does notthing.

 

[Mungo]

heretoeternity,


God didn't createthe sabbath in Gen 2. God gave the sabbath to the Israelites in the desert as a part of the Sinai Covenant.

The first mention of the sabbath is Ex 16:23.

 

[heretoeternity]

Genesis 2, God created the seventh day, He rested, He blessed the day and set it aside for Holy purposes (Sanctified) the day...
You are still in denial, and chose to ignore the teachings of the Bible...
The church of scientology and Roman church have a lot of similiarities....Scientology has taken a page from the Roman playbook...the leader said forty years ago "with lies you control people"....that should sound familitar to defenders of the Roman religious system.

 

[tom55]

No Tom, the Sabbath is not on Sunday.

I quoted 2175 to you in post #199. Do you not bother to read what I post?
"2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week.........." (yes I have missed a lot out!).
Read that again "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath". It's not a "New Sabbath" Sabbath is Saturday. We worship on Sunday.
Then the quote from Ignatous of Antioch - from the Catechism:
"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death".?
Read that again "no longer keeping the sabbath". We do not keep the sabbath.
Saint Pope John Paul II
"We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath, from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!"
Read that again "We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath". We have moved from the Sabbath

You DID NOT quote #2175. You admitted that you did not quote it when you said "yes I have missed a lot out".

You only partially quoted it and left out the part of it that says OPPOSITE of what you are saying.

#2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God.

#2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship as a sign of his universal beneficence to all. Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

#2189 “Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Deut 5:12). “The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord” (Ex 31:15).

#2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

The Church CLEARLY teaches that Sunday is the New Sabbath (day of rest) for man and that we are to obey the 10 Commandments....ALL TEN OF THEM!!

You seem to be hung up on the Sabbath being a Saturday when it CLEARLY is not.

Meaning of the Sabbath.—The Sabbath was the consecration of one day of the weekly period to God as the Author of the universe and of time. The day thus being the Lord's, it required that man should abstain from working for his own ends and interests, since by working he would appropriate the day to himself, and that he should devote his activity to God by special acts of positive worship. (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Hebrews 4: So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.

Tom,

This is getting to be a very one way conversation.
You ask questions. I have to anmswer them.

However,
I post explanations backed up by scripture. You ignore them.
I ask questions. You ignore them

Please answer the following questions from post #201
1. Before God gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites in the desert at Sinai, were people allowed to murder, steal, rape, commit adultery etc.?
2. If they were not, then why not, since they hadn't been given the Ten Commandments?

Those questions have nothing to do with your fallacious statement that Christians are no longer obliged to keep the 10 Commandments.

My disagreement with you is your fallacious statement that Christians are no longer obliged to keep the 10 Commandments and your use of the Catechism and Council of Trent to back up your fallacious statement. The Catechism CLEARLY agrees with the Council of Trent and CLEARLY disagrees with you and it is summed up in one 24 word sentence: The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them'? (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

LET ME ADD MORE TO DESTROY YOUR THEORY!!

#2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus’ call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity. The evangelical counsels are inseparable from the Commandments.

#2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments.....

Respectfully....Tom55

 

[Mungo]

Genesis 2, God created the seventh day, He rested, He blessed the day and set it aside for Holy purposes (Sanctified) the day...
You are still in denial, and chose to ignore the teachings of the Bible...
The church of scientology and Roman church have a lot of similiarities....Scientology has taken a page from the Roman playbook...the leader said forty years ago "with lies you control people"....that should sound familitar to defenders of the Roman religious system.

Gen 2 says nothing about mankind keeping a sabbath.

Many Jewish feasts are called Holy. Do you kep them all?

 

[Mungo]

You DID NOT quote #2175. You admitted that you did not quote it when you said "yes I have missed a lot out".

You only partially quoted it and left out the part of it that says OPPOSITE of what you are saying.

#2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God.

#2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship as a sign of his universal beneficence to all. Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

#2189 “Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Deut 5:12). “The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord” (Ex 31:15).

#2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

The Church CLEARLY teaches that Sunday is the New Sabbath (day of rest) for man and that we are to obey the 10 Commandments....ALL TEN OF THEM!!

You seem to be hung up on the Sabbath being a Saturday when it CLEARLY is not.

Meaning of the Sabbath.—The Sabbath was the consecration of one day of the weekly period to God as the Author of the universe and of time. The day thus being the Lord's, it required that man should abstain from working for his own ends and interests, since by working he would appropriate the day to himself, and that he should devote his activity to God by special acts of positive worship. (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Hebrews 4: So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.



Those questions have nothing to do with your fallacious statement that Christians are no longer obliged to keep the 10 Commandments.

My disagreement with you is your fallacious statement that Christians are no longer obliged to keep the 10 Commandments and your use of the Catechism and Council of Trent to back up your fallacious statement. The Catechism CLEARLY agrees with the Council of Trent and CLEARLY disagrees with you and it is summed up in one 24 word sentence: The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them'? (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

LET ME ADD MORE TO DESTROY YOUR THEORY!!

#2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus’ call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity. The evangelical counsels are inseparable from the Commandments.

#2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments.....

Respectfully....Tom55

Tom,

I'm not wasting my time with a one-sided conversation.

God bless.

Mungo

 

[tom55]

Tom,

I'm not wasting my time with a one-sided conversation.

God bless.

Mungo

I agree. It is one sided. Your side.

I have Scripture and YOUR SOURCE (the Catechism of the Catholic Church) on my side! Two sources!!

 

[heretoeternity]

Gen 2 says nothing about mankind keeping a sabbath.

Many Jewish feasts are called Holy. Do you kep them all?

You still fail to make the distinction between the Ten commandments of God, and the sacrificial laws of Moses. The ten commandments go on forever Matthew 5 "heaven and earth will pass away but nothing will be changed in God's law until all is fulfilled" Jesus said in obvious reference to His return. The law of Moses ended with Jesus sacrifice, with the exception of the four mentioned in Acts 15.
You keep relying on your false Roman religion's manmade doctrines to avoid keeping God's commandments, so you are true to the false Roman religion's false doctrines..as Jesus said follow the commandments of God and NOT the traditions of man Mark 7.

 

[Mungo]

You still fail to make the distinction between the Ten commandments of God, and the sacrificial laws of Moses. The ten commandments go on forever Matthew 5 "heaven and earth will pass away but nothing will be changed in God's law until all is fulfilled" Jesus said in obvious reference to His return. The law of Moses ended with Jesus sacrifice, with the exception of the four mentioned in Acts 15.

You are making a false distinction between the "Laws of God" given to the Israelites on Sinai, and the "Law of Moses" given to the Israeltes on Sinai. They are one and the same. They were given to the Israelites at Sina and to no-one else - not even the Israelites before Sinai.
1 And Moses summoned all Israel, and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
5 while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
6 "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 "'You shall have no other gods before me………

The Old (Sinai) Covenant, and the laws that went with it ended at the cross. as the many quotes I have given show. For example:
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, (Eph 2:13-15)
The Law has been abolished including commandments.

On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing (Heb 8:13)

He takes away the first to establish the second (Heb 10:9)

Note this:
Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious? (2 Cor 3:7-8)
What was carved in letters on stone and therefore described as “the ministry of death”. Answer – the Ten Commandments.

The Sabbath was given to the Israelites in the desert. It was given to no-one else.

The Law of Christ, the laws of the New Covenant do not include sabbath keeping.



Incidentally your "quote" from Matthew 5 is a paraphrase - and a poor one - not a quote.

 

[Mungo]

You keep relying on your false Roman religion's manmade doctrines to avoid keeping God's commandments, so you are true to the false Roman religion's false doctrines..as Jesus said follow the commandments of God and NOT the traditions of man Mark 7.

You keep relying on your Sabbatarian (SDA?) doctrines and not on Scripture.

Scripture shows you are wrong and you have no scrioture to back up your assertions.

I note that you claim to believe scripture but refuese to believe what scripture clearly says.

 

[heretoeternity]

You keep relying on your Sabbatarian (SDA?) doctrines and not on Scripture.

Scripture shows you are wrong and you have no scrioture to back up your assertions.

I note that you claim to believe scripture but refuese to believe what scripture clearly says.

Many scriptures have been quoted to you, but you either cannot read or refuse to acknowledge the Word of God..but do not feel too bad, this is typical of someone indoctrinated by the Roman religious organization and it's cultic manmade pagan traditions, and beliefs in the supremacy of man, instead of the supremacy of God, and His Holy word.