When Jesus Came out the Grave, he was Born Again.

[Runningman]

No, the Bible tells you what it is: Songs of Solomon...Songs of Psalms, Poems, and even a 5 part Play.
There is also the Historical side...time and dates that can be confirmed but Man's History of the past. and of course the grammatical writings..The Bible uses languages of the times for the setting of each chapter. (i.e. Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.) As in Daniel 1 is has the Hebrew flavor to it and Chapters 2 thru 7 were written in Aramaic. Chapters 1-6 are Historical and chapters 7-12 are visions of Daniel. Like the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, (no, not a parable), it tells us of our surroundings and times to comes...We either get ready or not.

Generally speaking, I agree with most of the points you just made. The Bible is indeed filled with a lot of historical and cultural context that may not make sense from our modern day perspectives and worldviews. We run the risk of misunderstanding something that may have made perfect sense to them in their day, but through our lens it could not be what they intended.

On the matter of the rich man and Lazarus story. It's most likely similar to a parable. If it's not then it contradicts the Bible. Abraham advised the rich man saying, "During your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony." Red alert. This should automatically alert us that this is not the gospel or how God judges people. The rich man and Lazarus were not judged based on their wealth or lackthereof and assigned to Torment and Comfort accordingly. If that was a point in the gospel, sin, and judgement then the best way for one to get to heaven would be to sit by a rich man's gate and beg their entire life and it's not. It doesn't even mention the fact that Lazarus was also a sinner, for all have sinned. There are too many theological issues with this story for it to be literal. For sure some of this story mixes literal and non-literal elements and I think this story is a spiritual lesson without it being in traditional parable format.

 

[APAK]

Yes He was "fully man" and "fully GOD"

John was washing the Jewish people to cleanse them of their filth and idols....Jesus Baptized them removing their sins. Notice that Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit within Him for He was already GOD....Daniel's 70th week has not happened yet at this point...Neither had the 69 week of years happen.......This event was about 3 years early.

His Human Body was crucified, buried and resurrected on the fourth day. The resurrection brought His eternal soul and newly transfigured body together forever as you have said.

Agree

It is intellectually dishonest, let alone scripturally, to say that Jesus Christ never received the Spirit of God, as you said, because he was God already.

He received this spirit by the time of his birth, and most probably by conception.

You are entertaining a wild and rash idea not found in scripture to suit your own personal belief regarding the nature of God and his Son.
Just saying....

 

[lforrest]

Of course you become a Christians if you be Christ like. You have to truly walk in this word of God and keep the Commandments, Statues and Judgements. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

Now when we go into being born again, that comes at the first or second resurrection.

Even Job was aware of this. Take a look. Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Take a look at Philippians and you will see Job and Paul are on the same page.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jesus did change at the resurrection, no longer being of flesh and blood but flesh and bone.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[Bladerunner]

Generally speaking, I agree with most of the points you just made. The Bible is indeed filled with a lot of historical and cultural context that may not make sense from our modern day perspectives and worldviews. We run the risk of misunderstanding something that may have made perfect sense to them in their day, but through our lens it could not be what they intended.

On the matter of the rich man and Lazarus story. It's most likely similar to a parable. If it's not then it contradicts the Bible. Abraham advised the rich man saying, "During your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony." Red alert. This should automatically alert us that this is not the gospel or how God judges people. The rich man and Lazarus were not judged based on their wealth or lackthereof and assigned to Torment and Comfort accordingly. If that was a point in the gospel, sin, and judgement then the best way for one to get to heaven would be to sit by a rich man's gate and beg their entire life and it's not. It doesn't even mention the fact that Lazarus was also a sinner, for all have sinned. There are too many theological issues with this story for it to be literal. For sure some of this story mixes literal and non-literal elements and I think this story is a spiritual lesson without it being in traditional parable format.

here we go back to Spiritual lessons and changes to the Bible. OK..it is your life...

 

[Bladerunner]

It is intellectually dishonest, let alone scripturally, to say that Jesus Christ never received the Spirit of God, as you said, because he was God already.

He received this spirit by the time of his birth, and most probably by conception.

You are entertaining a wild and rash idea not found in scripture to suit your own personal belief regarding the nature of God and his Son.
Just saying....

In the old testament, most people (with exceptions) who believed in GOD did not receive them as we do in the Church Age...Jesus also did not receive the Holy Spirit.. The Holy Spirit show up as a (WHAT?) and sat on the WHO????. It was not until Acts 2 and the New church off Jesus (His Body,His Bride)did the believers receive the Holy Spirit within their own body. Here is one place where the Trinity shows up..For God from Heaven calls dawn with the Holy Spirit sitting on His shoulders, saying "......This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.". This covenmental theology really messes with peoples minds......unbelievers.

 

[Runningman]

here we go back to Spiritual lessons and changes to the Bible. OK..it is your life...

Ok, I'll bite. So Lazarus went to the place of comfort, even though he's a sinner too, because he received bad things in his life? That's literal?

 

[Runningman]

In the old testament, most people (with exceptions) who believed in GOD did not receive them as we do in the Church Age...Jesus also did not receive the Holy Spirit.. The Holy Spirit show up as a (WHAT?) and sat on the WHO????. It was not until Acts 2 and the New church off Jesus (His Body,His Bride)did the believers receive the Holy Spirit within their own body. Here is one place where the Trinity shows up..For God from Heaven calls dawn with the Holy Spirit sitting on His shoulders, saying "......This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.". This covenmental theology really messes with peoples minds......unbelievers.

I would offer you, I don't know if you will accept this, but the "Holy Spirit" that Jesus received at his water baptism came down in the bodily form of a dove, while simultaneously there was a voice from heaven, which was God. The dove was imagery of an anointing of a spirit of holiness and an empowerment, but not an image of God, since that could potentially be idolatry.

Luke 3 (NIV)
22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

 

[bro.tan]

Jesus did change at the resurrection, no longer being of flesh and blood but flesh and bone.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Yes, and that teaches us that Jesus body is different from the angels, even though he has all power now. Remember Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Let's go into Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Look at verse 31, once they realized that it was Jesus they spoke with, what happen? He vanished out of their sight. Remember in John chapter 3 and verse 8. The Lord gave an example of how a spirit would look. He likened a spirit to the wind.( John 3:8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[bro.tan]

Have you ever thought and seriously considered that Jesus became reborn in the Spirit of God, his Father by the time of his birth?

And then at his resurrection, by the power of his Father, realized the fruits of his rebirth as the firstborn from the death (human death).

The only thing that keeps my mind from running all over the place is the word of God. Remember Jesus was born like us, as far as coming through a woman. Jesus is the prototype of us, his creation, so he had to be our example of life. Remember Paul says in Hebrews 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Jesus had the spirit of God on him as a child, not sure how young, but we all have to be born again to a new body that don't die. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (1 Corinthians 15)

 

[Bladerunner]

Ok, I'll bite. So Lazarus went to the place of comfort, even though he's a sinner too, because he received bad things in his life? That's literal?

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Mat 19:24.....

 

[Bladerunner]

I would offer you, I don't know if you will accept this, but the "Holy Spirit" that Jesus received at his water baptism came down in the bodily form of a dove, while simultaneously there was a voice from heaven, which was God. The dove was imagery of an anointing of a spirit of holiness and an empowerment, but not an image of God, since that could potentially be idolatry.

Luke 3 (NIV)
22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

well then the Dove, the Holy Spirit would also have been idolatry....the Trinity....????

 

[Runningman]

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Mat 19:24.....

Next question. Did God cause to happen the bad things Lazarus received in his life or the good things the rich man received in his?

 

[Bladerunner]

Next question. Did God cause to happen the bad things Lazarus received in his life or the good things the rich man received in his?

God is in control, completely. How did the rich man become of his riches and why did he not have any compassion for Lazarus..regardless of How Lazarus got there, his condition at the time of this story, the only mercy, good will toward him would have been the dogs that licked his sores. Did Lazarus sin. I don't know and Jesus did not enter this into the mix...Yet it is apparent that Lazarus was saved and the Rich man was not...As you can see from the story the rich man had not repented and by the end of the story you forgot, Abraham has the last say.

 

[Runningman]

God is in control, completely. How did the rich man become of his riches and why did he not have any compassion for Lazarus..regardless of How Lazarus got there, his condition at the time of this story, the only mercy, good will toward him would have been the dogs that licked his sores. Did Lazarus sin. I don't know and Jesus did not enter this into the mix...Yet it is apparent that Lazarus was saved and the Rich man was not...As you can see from the story the rich man had not repented and by the end of the story you forgot, Abraham has the last say.

The only explanation Abraham offered was they ended up where they are due to their bad things and good things they received. While it is not directly stated that they were judged prior to their arrival at their destinations, they must have been sorted due to what they received in life; in other words they were judged.

There comes another problem from my perspective. Do you believe God judged them for what He caused to happen and, if so, why would God judge them rather than judge His own actions? Does it seem like justice that someone would be punished or rewarded eternally for a relatively short life that was given to them?

Anyway, didn't Abraham also say "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead?" Why would he say that when being convinced by Jesus raising from the dead is part of the gospel? And wouldn't witnessing a resurrection be a powerful and convincing experience rather than listening to a rabbi drone on and on about Moses and the Prophets in the temple?

I don't think this story supports who the God of the Bible is and doesn't make much sense. I am strongly inclined to still believe it's not a completely literal story.

 

[APAK]

In the old testament, most people (with exceptions) who believed in GOD did not receive them as we do in the Church Age...Jesus also did not receive the Holy Spirit.. The Holy Spirit show up as a (WHAT?) and sat on the WHO????. It was not until Acts 2 and the New church off Jesus (His Body,His Bride)did the believers receive the Holy Spirit within their own body. Here is one place where the Trinity shows up..For God from Heaven calls dawn with the Holy Spirit sitting on His shoulders, saying "......This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.". This covenmental theology really messes with peoples minds......unbelievers.

Good luck with whatever you said and meant, as I cannot make any real sense of it.

 

[Bladerunner]

Good luck with whatever you said and meant, as I cannot make any real sense of it.

Oh I don;t know, with the exception of a misspelled word or two (my fingers don't type as well as they use to) the post is understandable especially with definitions I also provided. have a blessed day

 

[Dan Clarkston]

When Jesus Came out the Grave, he was Born Again.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God's Word specifically says Jesus was the first born from the dead (dead being separated from God, which is spiritual death which He experienced in our behalf as our ransom)

We know Jesus was separated from God on the Cross by what He said in Matthew 27:46

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So, Jesus was the first man to go from being separated from God... back to NOT being separated from God.
(first born from death to life)

Adam was the first man to go from NOT being separated from God... to being separated from God
(first born from life to death)

So... Adam was actually the first born again man... he got born again from life to death

Jesus came to reverse what Adam did, so Jesus is the first man to be born again from death to life.

 

[bro.tan]

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God's Word specifically says Jesus was the first born from the dead (dead being separated from God, which is spiritual death which He experienced in our behalf as our ransom)

We know Jesus was separated from God on the Cross by what He said in Matthew 27:46

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So, Jesus was the first man to go from being separated from God... back to NOT being separated from God.
(first born from death to life)

Adam was the first man to go from NOT being separated from God... to being separated from God
(first born from life to death)

So... Adam was actually the first born again man... he got born again from life to death

Jesus came to reverse what Adam did, so Jesus is the first man to be born again from death to life.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

That's true... but that does not mean or say that Adam was not the first man to be "born again" which is another way of saying Adam was changed from being in fellowship with God to being separated from God.

 

[Bladerunner]

That's true... but that does not mean or say that Adam was not the first man to be "born again" which is another way of saying Adam was changed from being in fellowship with God to being separated from God.

God gave Adam and Eve another child (Seth)when they were 130 years old. Since GOD controls the womb of the woman, it is safe to say that God had forgiven Adam and Eve. However, this did not retract the curses placed upon them and mankind.