WHEN WE ALL GET TO HEAVEN, WHAT A DAY OF REJOICING THAT WILL BE?

[StanJ]

Jesus received Stephen's spirit into heaven as Acts 7:55-56 indicate.

I have covered the meaning of 'sleep' at death in my article, 'Soul sleep - a refutation'. 'Sleep' is a metaphor for death. It does not refer to sleeping after death, instead of going into the Lord's presence, as seen in my exposition. There is no 'tough time' dealing with Stephen who 'fell asleep' at death (Acts 7:60) when one knows the meaning of why OT and NT used 'sleep' for death. I've done my homework in this area, Stan.

I have not taken 2 Cor 5:8 out of context as 2 Cor 5:1-10 is dealing with the heavenly dwelling. Some of Paul's emphases here are that 'we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord' (2 Cor 5:6:ESV). AND, 'we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV). When will we be away from the body and at home with the Lord? That happens at our death. The topic is leaving this body to be home with the Lord. When does that happen? At death. That is what verse 6 states, which I've quoted.

Stan, you stated, 'Jesus received Stephen's spirit in the same place that He did the thief's spirit, in paradise'. You are imposing 'paradise' on the text as that word is never mentioned in Acts 7:55-60.

Who is Jesus coming back for at his second coming? Brother, the body that is turned to dust after death is not at home with the Lord. It will be the time of union of spirit and body. The resurrection body is described in 1 Cor 15:35-49 (ESV).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NLT) tells us what happens at death, 'For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it'. So, at death our spirit returns to God and the body becomes dust in the grave.

What, then, is the meaning of 1 Thess 4:16-17 when it states that 'the dead in Christ shall rise first'?

As indicated with Stephen, when he died from stoning (Acts 7:55-60) and looked into heaven, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God in heaven and Stephen's spirit was received there (Acts 7:59). Whether one calls it paradise, heaven, 'my father's house', at death, the spirit of Christians goes to that place and the body goes to the grave to become dust. At the last day when Christ returns, it will be raised and there will be a union of the resurrected body and the glorified spirit. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

It doesn't say that Oz, you're inferring it.

Jesus had already established the pattern, which was consistent with the thief on the cross. Nothing changed between those two events. Paradise is NOT the same as heaven, otherwise Jesus lied. Stephen had a vision, he did not actually SEE God.
My point is the whole thing needs to be interpreted from within scripture, NOT on it's own. Heaven has NEVER been the believers destination, Eternal Life is.

 

[StanJ]

Where, exactly, is "Paradise"?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Evidently, it is where God lives.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
And doesn't it sound like a beautiful place...

First of all, Rev 2 doesn't say it's WHERE GOD is, it says it belongs to God.

Secondly, what you quote from Rev 22 is about the NEW Jerusalem, which comes DOWN from heaven onto the NEW earth. It does NOT describe heaven or the believers destination.

 

[OzSpen]

It doesn't say that Oz, you're inferring it.

Jesus had already established the pattern, which was consistent with the thief on the cross. Nothing changed between those two events. Paradise is NOT the same as heaven, otherwise Jesus lied. Stephen had a vision, he did not actually SEE God.
My point is the whole thing needs to be interpreted from within scripture, NOT on it's own. Heaven has NEVER been the believers destination, Eternal Life is.

Stan,

You are into imposing on the text again. If you continue to build straw men fallacies with me, I won't respond, because we can't have a rational conversation.

Take your first sentence: 'It doesn't say that Oz, you're inferring it'. You don't tell me what you are talking about so I have no idea what you refer to.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Where, exactly, is "Paradise"?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Evidently, it is where God lives.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And doesn't it sound like a beautiful place...

Since God will be there, it will be perfect, beautiful and justice will prevail. We won't have to deal with eisegesis anymore or postmodern inventions.

 

[Barrd]

Since God will be there, it will be perfect, beautiful and justice will prevail. We won't have to deal with eisegesis anymore or postmodern inventions.

It will be beautiful.

 

[Barrd]

Frankly, I think that arguing over these things is rather silly.
This one thinks this will happen, that one thinks that will happen...
The truth is that none of us truly knows what will happen.
We must simply do the best that we can, and trust Him.
Jesus will come for us, and He will be right on time. And He will take us to that place He has prepared for us, and it will be perfect.
That's really all we need to know...

 

[Barrd]

And one should not forget Jesus words Matthew 7 Jesus says "depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness" (do not keep the law)..

AMEN to that HTE.

 

[OzSpen]

Frankly, I think that arguing over these things is rather silly.
This one thinks this will happen, that one thinks that will happen...
The truth is that none of us truly knows what will happen.
We must simply do the best that we can, and trust Him.
Jesus will come for us, and He will be right on time. And He will take us to that place He has prepared for us, and it will be perfect.
That's really all we need to know...

The Barrd,

The NT is more specific than that. We need to be accurate with what the Scripture states in context and not invent what we want the text to state.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

The NT is more specific than that. We need to be accurate with what the Scripture states in context and not invent what we want the text to state.

Oz

Oz, I'm not "inventing" anything.
Jesus promised that He would return for us. But He didn't give us His schedule. He'll be here, because He said He would be. And He will be here when He is supposed to be here. For all any of us know, that could be in the next couple of seconds...or it might not be for another thousand years or more. We can speculate, of course. And many have. He did not come at the turn of the millenia...although a great many people here in this small Alabama town expected Him to...and He did not come in December 2012. But He is certainly coming, and, yes....He will be right on time. Except...we do not know when that time will be.

And He also promised that He would prepare a place for us, that where He is, we may also be. I didn't "invent" that, either. And since He is preparing it, it will be perfect.

(If He had asked me, I would have put sofas in the living room with built in storage and heavy drapes on the windows, and there would be a dishwasher, a self-cleaning oven, a frost-free fridge, and a microwave oven in the kitchen. No carpeting on the floors, they would be hardwood with tile in the bathrooms and in the kitchen. I am convinced that wall-to-wall carpeting was a man's invention.)

We have a few hints about what our forever home will be like, here and there...mainly there (Revelation)...but we will not know specific details until we are actually there.

Even a little 12 year old girl with no "religious training" could tell you that, Oz....

 

[OzSpen]

Even a little 12 year old girl with no "religious training" could tell you that, Oz....

Sarcasm and put downs such as that are totally unnecessary.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

You are into imposing on the text again. If you continue to build straw men fallacies with me, I won't respond, because we can't have a rational conversation.

Take your first sentence: 'It doesn't say that Oz, you're inferring it'. You don't tell me what you are talking about so I have no idea what you refer to.

Oz

And again, you claiming such does not make it true. It can't be a strawman if it is not designed to be wrong, so please just refute it or stop making fallacious claims.

YOU made the comment Oz, I contradicted you. Can you not follow your own post and rational?

 

[Barrd]

Sarcasm and put downs such as that are totally unnecessary.

That is neither a sarcasm nor a put down, Oz. I'm sorry you see it that way.
The 12 year old girl is not you...it is me. I figured you'd know that.
First, you accuse me of "inventing" facts that are plainly written, and then, you accuse me of "sarcasm and put downs".

I'm beginning to think that perhaps you have a problem with me?

 

[OzSpen]

And again, you claiming such does not make it true. It can't be a strawman if it is not designed to be wrong, so please just refute it or stop making fallacious claims.

YOU made the comment Oz, I contradicted you. Can you not follow your own post and rational?

That's a red herring, Stan.

 

[OzSpen]

That is neither a sarcasm nor a put down, Oz. I'm sorry you see it that way.
The 12 year old girl is not you...it is me. I figured you'd know that.
First, you accuse me of "inventing" facts that are plainly written, and then, you accuse me of "sarcasm and put downs".

I'm beginning to think that perhaps you have a problem with me?

The Barrd, I had no idea you were referring to yourself. Try it with an Aussie accent and I might understand.

 

[StanJ]

Frankly, I think that arguing over these things is rather silly.
This one thinks this will happen, that one thinks that will happen...
The truth is that none of us truly knows what will happen.
We must simply do the best that we can, and trust Him.
Jesus will come for us, and He will be right on time. And He will take us to that place He has prepared for us, and it will be perfect.
That's really all we need to know...

So, you can simply stop being silly by contributing, and make yourself feel better. You seem to always resort to "nobody really knows" whenever you don't?
The scriptures do tell us where he will take us, but not for at least a thousand years after He returns.
What we need to know vs what we should know are two totally different issues.

 

[StanJ]

That's a red herring, Stan.

No Oz, that's a FACT. What IS a red herring, is you always labeling everything as such, just to avoid DEALING.

 

[OzSpen]

No Oz, that's a FACT. What IS a red herring, is you always labeling everything as such, just to avoid DEALING.

Stan,

When you understand the meaning of a red herring logical fallacy and how you use it, then you'll know how you use it on this forum. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html.

Bye, Oz

 

[Barrd]

No Oz, that's a FACT. What IS a red herring, is you always labeling everything as such, just to avoid DEALING.

opcorn:

 

[Barrd]

What kind of fallacy is it when people make stuff up about each other because they got their wings clipped?

Oh, yeah...ad hominem fallacy.
The worst one of the bunch...

 

[Barrd]

So, you can simply stop being silly by contributing, and make yourself feel better. You seem to always resort to "nobody really knows" whenever you don't?
The scriptures do tell us where he will take us, but not for at least a thousand years after He returns.
What we need to know vs what we should know are two totally different issues.

Thank you for your concern, Stan, but honestly, I feel just fine.
If I start losing my cool, I will get up and walk around a little bit, till I feel better again...