WHEN WE ALL GET TO HEAVEN, WHAT A DAY OF REJOICING THAT WILL BE?

[StanJ]

Many old hymns of the church, and some new ones, talk about going to heaven when we die. Crossing over. Pearly gates etc....
Why is that, when clearly heaven is NOT the Christian's destination? Jesus said no one has seen the father, so why do a lot of Christians espouse this?

 

[IAM4JESUS]

I will take that bait, and respond in this manner, brother: with Scripture...

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you really know Me, you will know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work.” John 14:1-10 NIV

I rarely quote out of anything other than the KJV or my Young's Literal Translation, but I figured since your tags are from the NIV, that I would oblige you in that.

Now let's just take a close look here, shall we?

"My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"

I would say that since heaven is "My Father's house", and since Jesus Himself said "I will come back and take you to be with that you also may be where I am", that pretty much tells me that the saved will indeed one day cross over and see the pearly gates. That is... heaven. So clearly heaven is our destination.

To address another part of your question...

"Jesus answered: “Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work."

I would also say that Jesus Himself has answered it. True, no one alive today has seen the Father, however he has been seen by men. Christ's apostles for starters, to whom He was addressing in the above Scripture.

Finally, I will answer the overall question you posed (at least for myself):

I/We espouse this because it is Scriptural. Meaning it can be easily - and in this case, transparently - deduced as truth on the basis of Scripture alone, with no need to cite outside sources, or church fathers, or Pastor Bob down at the corner church to "prove" it's validity.

I mean no disrespect, but do you believe that Jesus the Christ, the precious Lamb of God, is deity? Or do you, as I hear on occasion, believe that He was just a very wise man? For He was indeed God in the flesh...

May God bless you and keep you...

 

[lforrest]

People don't go to heaven when they die. They must already be there before they die. So once we have our foot in the door to eternity so to say, we can never be truly dead. Our destination is eternity, we embark the moment we receive the gift of salvation. When this time comes to an end everyone will see God, because there will be no place left to hide.

 

[StanJ]

I will take that bait, and respond in this manner, brother: with Scripture...
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you really know Me, you will know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work.” John 14:1-10 NIV

I rarely quote out of anything other than the KJV or my Young's Literal Translation, but I figured since your tags are from the NIV, that I would oblige you in that.

Now let's just take a close look here, shall we?

"My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"

I would say that since heaven is "My Father's house", and since Jesus Himself said "I will come back and take you to be with that you also may be where I am", that pretty much tells me that the saved will indeed one day cross over and see the pearly gates. That is... heaven. So clearly heaven is our destination.

To address another part of your question...

"Jesus answered: “Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work."

I would also say that Jesus Himself has answered it. True, no one alive today has seen the Father, however he has been seen by men. Christ's apostles for starters, to whom He was addressing in the above Scripture.

Finally, I will answer the overall question you posed (at least for myself):

I/We espouse this because it is Scriptural. Meaning it can be easily - and in this case, transparently - deduced as truth on the basis of Scripture alone, with no need to cite outside sources, or church fathers, or Pastor Bob down at the corner church to "prove" it's validity.

I mean no disrespect, but do you believe that Jesus the Christ, the precious Lamb of God, is deity? Or do you, as I hear on occasion, believe that He was just a very wise man? For He was indeed God in the flesh...

May God bless you and keep you...

The Father's house is the NEW Jerusalem, not heaven. That is what Jesus went to prepare. We as believers will reign with Jesus in His millennium reign on this world until His judgement seat, after which God will create the NEW earth, and send the NEW Jerusalem, where He will live with us as Jesus, because there will be no Temple.
I don't know what you are referring to about the 'other' part? My point is, that it is NOT sound hermeneutical exegesis to say scriptures teach thus, because it does NOT. You yourself have taken Jesus' words to say something they do not, given all the scriptures that do depict our destination as ETERNAL LIFE.
BTW, there is another thread for the Trinity so please don't go off topic here with that.

Oh, and welcome to CB.

 

[StanJ]

People don't go to heaven when they die. They must already be there before they die. So once we have our foot in the door to eternity so to say, we can never be truly dead. Our destination is eternity, we embark the moment we receive the gift of salvation. When this time comes to an end everyone will see God, because there will be no place left to hide.

I think you are alluding to us being in the Kingdom of Heaven, but that is not what I was referring to. We must endure to receive eternal life, so it is contingent on dieing the first death as a believer. If we do, there is no second death. It's not just eternity, it is ETERNAL LIFE. We are changed in the twinkling of an eye and made immortal when Jesus returns. I'm sure you know all the relevant scriptures.

 

[heretoeternity]

And one should not forget Jesus words Matthew 7 Jesus says "depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness" (do not keep the law)..

 

[Angelina]

I'd just be happy to get there!

 

[StanJ]

I'd just be happy to get there!

and just exactly WHERE is THERE.

 

[KingJ]

Stan I think you need to be clear on what exacty it is that you believe here.

If my memory serves me correct you believe we who make it are on earth for all eternity? Heaven is some place in the sky where God lives and we will never be?

 

[StanJ]

Stan I think you need to be clear on what exacty it is that you believe here.
If my memory serves me correct you believe we who make it are on earth for all eternity? Heaven is some place in the sky where God lives and we will never be?

Did you not read post #4?
I'm pretty sure I was clear, and your memory does NOT serve you well KJ.
Heaven is a spiritual dimension where time does NOT exist, and where no man has EVER been. Jesus told us that.

 

[KingJ]

Did you not read post #4?
I'm pretty sure I was clear, and your memory does NOT serve you well KJ.
Heaven is a spiritual dimension where time does NOT exist, and where no man has EVER been. Jesus told us that.

I wanted to understand your thinking on where God would be. Which you answered above.

So God the Son will be with us on earth, God the Father in a timeless heaven. I can accept that. I always assumed you believed we would be stuck on earth. Unable to visit other planets.

Disagreeing with you on what happens after the millenium would all be opinions and speculation. Scripture kind of stops there. All I can say is that in our understanding with our renewed mind God will not hold us back from anything He has. All the evidence points to Him being an open book and loving us at the max. But I agree, some / most things about God we may never be able to grasp.

 

[lforrest]

Just because no one accended to Heaven except Jesus doesn't mean no one ever will.

 

[StanJ]

So God the Son will be with us on earth, God the Father in a timeless heaven. I can accept that. I always assumed you believed we would be stuck on earth. Unable to visit other planets.

Disagreeing with you on what happens after the millenium would all be opinions and speculation. Scripture kind of stops there. All I can say is that in our understanding with our renewed mind God will not hold us back from anything He has. All the evidence points to Him being an open book and loving us at the max. But I agree, some / most things about God we may never be able to grasp.

No KJ, you need to read Rev 21. There will not only be a NEW Jerusalem, but a new heaven and earth. Eternal Life is NOT about visiting other planets.

The Bible tells us all that is relevant, we really don't need to know more until we are there.

 

[StanJ]

Just because no one accended to Heaven except Jesus doesn't mean no one ever will.

I think God has set the precedent. It obviously was never His design to have spirits live with Him, but for Him to live with His creation.

 

[lforrest]

I think God has set the precedent. It obviously was never His design to have spirits live with Him, but for Him to live with His creation.

Sounds like a less obvious, and more convenient solution to the paradox.

Are there not angels.in heaven? They are spirit with spiritual bodies. Humans too will have spiritual bodies following the resurrection. And since eternity spans all human lifetimes including the resurrection it is not as though there would be disembodied spirits walking around heaven. Have you considered a you may be in heaven right now as your reading this? The possibilities when we consider God as timeless defies our ability to imagine. Therefore even though I can't fully comprehend all these plans God has for us, I choose to believe I will be with him in heaven body soul and spirit one day.

 

[StanJ]

Sounds like a less obvious, and more convenient solution to the paradox.
Are there not angels.in heaven? They are spirit with spiritual bodies. Humans too will have spiritual bodies following the resurrection. And since eternity spans all human lifetimes including the resurrection it is not as though there would be disembodied spirits walking around heaven. Have you considered a you may be in heaven right now as your reading this? The possibilities when we consider God as timeless defies our ability to imagine. Therefore even though I can't fully comprehend all these plans God has for us, I choose to believe I will be with him in heaven body soul and spirit one day.

Well convenient would be if the Bible actually was definitive about it, but that is not always the case with scripture as you well know, so we have to use all of it to find the most plausible or likely scenario. Humans will have incorruptible/immortal physical bodies. There is no such thing as a spirituaL in the SAME sense as our physical body. No forrest, I'm not in heaven because no man has ever been there. Well if it does defy your ability to imagine, why are you imagining?
You will be with Him where Rev 21 says you will be, in the NEW Jerusalem, on the NEW EARTH. It's a tangible physical Eternal Life.

 

[OzSpen]

Just because no one accended to Heaven except Jesus doesn't mean no one ever will.

lforrest,

I'm not convinced by that statement. Here's why.

Stephen was proclaiming the Gospel and was being stoned to death. What did he see as he was dying? This is what we read in Acts 7:55-60 (ESV):

But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen saw the Lord - the Son of Man - in the heavens, at the right hand of God. This is where Stephen was going at death. There is no soul sleep here or Abraham's bosom (rich man and Lazarus) or Paradise (thief on the cross). When Stephen was dying, he 'gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God' (Acts 7:55). Stephen saw 'the heavens opened' and the Son of Man was there with God himself.

Concerning death and heaven, here we have Stephen dying and he knew he was going into the presence of the Lord and Stephen said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit'. Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and asked Him to receive Stephen's spirit.

This sounds very much like what Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:6-8 (ESV):

'So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord'.

There seems to be evidence here that Stephen went to heaven, where Jesus was, at death. Therefore, we should not be adamant about no heaven at death for Christian believers.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Stephen was proclaiming the Gospel and was being stoned to death. What did he see as he was dying? This is what we read in Acts 7:55-60 (ESV):
Stephen saw the Lord - the Son of Man - in the heavens, at the right hand of God. This is where Stephen was going at death. There is no soul sleep here or Abraham's bosom (rich man and Lazarus) or Paradise (thief on the cross). When Stephen was dying, he 'gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God' (Acts 7:55). Stephen saw 'the heavens opened' and the Son of Man was there with God himself.
Concerning death and heaven, here we have Stephen dying and he knew he was going into the presence of the Lord and Stephen said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit'. Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and asked Him to receive Stephen's spirit.
This sounds very much like what Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:6-8 (ESV):
There seems to be evidence here that Stephen went to heaven, where Jesus was, at death. Therefore, we should not be adamant about no heaven at death for Christian believers.

Jesus received Stephen's spirit in the same place that He did the thief's spirit, in paradise. I'd be careful to not take literally the wording used in Acts 7, otherwise you will have a tough time dealing with v60 where it says Stephen "fell asleep".
As far as what Paul writes in 2 Cor 5, this is often taken out of context, as Paul states he would "prefer" to be with the Lord, it does not indicate ones death accomplishes that, otherwise who is Jesus coming back for?
The best indication we have of where believers go when they die, is in Luke 16, formerly called Paradise.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus received Stephen's spirit in the same place that He did the thief's spirit, in paradise. I'd be careful to not take literally the wording used in Acts 7, otherwise you will have a tough time dealing with v60 where it says Stephen "fell asleep".
As far as what Paul writes in 2 Cor 5, this is often taken out of context, as Paul states he would "prefer" to be with the Lord, it does not indicate ones death accomplishes that, otherwise who is Jesus coming back for?
The best indication we have of where believers go when they die, is in Luke 16, formerly called Paradise.

Stan,

Jesus received Stephen's spirit into heaven as Acts 7:55-56 indicate.

I have covered the meaning of 'sleep' at death in my article, 'Soul sleep - a refutation'. 'Sleep' is a metaphor for death. It does not refer to sleeping after death, instead of going into the Lord's presence, as seen in my exposition. There is no 'tough time' dealing with Stephen who 'fell asleep' at death (Acts 7:60) when one knows the meaning of why OT and NT used 'sleep' for death. I've done my homework in this area, Stan.

I have not taken 2 Cor 5:8 out of context as 2 Cor 5:1-10 is dealing with the heavenly dwelling. Some of Paul's emphases here are that 'we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord' (2 Cor 5:6:ESV). AND, 'we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV). When will we be away from the body and at home with the Lord? That happens at our death. The topic is leaving this body to be home with the Lord. When does that happen? At death. That is what verse 6 states, which I've quoted.

Stan, you stated, 'Jesus received Stephen's spirit in the same place that He did the thief's spirit, in paradise'. You are imposing 'paradise' on the text as that word is never mentioned in Acts 7:55-60.

Who is Jesus coming back for at his second coming? Brother, the body that is turned to dust after death is not at home with the Lord. It will be the time of union of spirit and body. The resurrection body is described in 1 Cor 15:35-49 (ESV).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NLT) tells us what happens at death, 'For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it'. So, at death our spirit returns to God and the body becomes dust in the grave.

What, then, is the meaning of 1 Thess 4:16-17 when it states that 'the dead in Christ shall rise first'?

As indicated with Stephen, when he died from stoning (Acts 7:55-60) and looked into heaven, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God in heaven and Stephen's spirit was received there (Acts 7:59). Whether one calls it paradise, heaven, 'my father's house', at death, the spirit of Christians goes to that place and the body goes to the grave to become dust. At the last day when Christ returns, it will be raised and there will be a union of the resurrected body and the glorified spirit. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

Where, exactly, is "Paradise"?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Evidently, it is where God lives.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And doesn't it sound like a beautiful place...