WHEN WE ALL GET TO HEAVEN, WHAT A DAY OF REJOICING THAT WILL BE?

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz, I am wondering how Abrahams bosom can be the third heaven if it existed at a time before Jesus died?

I can agree that all there were en route to being with God. But only after Jesus died could any man be reconciled with God. That is why it was called Abraham's bosom and not heaven. A place on the other side of a divide in Hades.

King J,

I cannot agree with your statement that 'only after Jesus died could any man be reconciled with God'. We know that Abraham was justified by faith. This is confirmed in several NT places. Rom 4:1-3 (NASB) states:

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

This last statement is found in Gen 15:6 (ESV), 'And he [Abram] believed the LORD, and he [the Lord] counted it to him as righteousness'. See also Zechariah 4:6ff and Melchizadek (Gen 14; Heb 7).

Your question is a good one. How can 'Abraham's bosom' refer to the third heaven if it existed before Jesus' death. That is a presumption you are making. The story is recorded before Jesus' death in Luke, but was the story told by Jesus before his death? Was it historical narrative or parable? That has been the discussion by Bible scholars and teachers for many years.

The ESV translates Luke 16:22 for 'Abraham's boson' as meaning 'the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side'.

There is a long-standing debate over whether this is an actual incident from Jesus or a parable. I accept it as a parable (some contest that a real name, Lazarus, makes it an incident). I accept it as an illustration of what happens at death for the believer and the unbeliever. I will not discuss further the parable, non-parable views as they are detailed and not easy to resolve. The place to resolve that is not on CyB; go to commentaries for detailed discussions on such.

In the Jewish Talmud (commentary on the OT), 'Abraham's bosom' was used as a synonym for heaven. See the explanation of 'Abraham's bosom' in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

This article in GotQuestions? gives a helpful summary of the meaning of Abraham's bosom:

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned ("What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?")

Therefore, the expression 'Abraham's bosom' could refer to something similar to the OT 'As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace' (Gen 15:15 NASB), e.g gathered to his people. It could refer to the expectation to be received by Abraham (Apocrypha 4 Mac 13;17; Talmud). Some have even suggested it is a picture of the messianic banquet (Lk 13:28ff) [suggestions by Earle Ellis].

I consider the overall theme of the parable relates to what happens at death and whether it is an actual story or parable tells us about it. It is not a story designed to explain Abraham's bosom vs third heaven, paradise or heaven. It is a story dealing with what happens at death and where believer and unbeliever go and what they experience.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

No Stan you misinterpret what I say. I said, "The idea of the reasoning of the author's repetition in the Scripture is unsatisfactorily settled by any of the commentaries, hence the numerous arguments concerning such." [/size]
It is interesting every commentary consulted suggest this is the same location, yet you disagree. Apparently we all agree it is demonstrated from Scripture including the pre-eminent Koine Greek lexicographer.
Again I am not compelled to convince you.

Not from what I read, but again using physical vernacular to describle spiritual dimensions that Paul said he really did NOT know about, just serves to further compound your confusion. You may want to address that cognitive dissonance of yours.
Yet you continue to try to do so, so I'm not convinced of even that denial.