WHERE IS TRUTH?

[Daniel Veler]

Why are there so many…opinions…. arguments….debates….about what the scriptures mean?

Why are there over 30,000 registered Protestant denominations?

I am sure some know that there are several “Catholic type” religions around the world.

And then there are the non-denominational churches that number in the 100’s of thousands.

Then we have the heretical denominations, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Voodooists, the Calvinists. And the less organized denominations that are more or less “religious movements” the new age’rs, and what I call the new denomination.

Why is it so difficult to come up with a concise meaning for the Bible? This is serious business because it has inspired wars between the Catholics and the Protestants….The 30 year war fought in Europe and the conflict between the Protestants and the Catholics in Ireland that also lasted 30 years. And the deaths and casualties from these wars challenge the death tolls in the World Wars. How could the Bible be so confusing that it would fracture the Church of Christ and cause this amount of death and suffering?

There are answers to a lot of this, that will explain how all this happened and bring a lot of the scriptures into focus.

Explaining the numbers….

Actually if you look it up there are more than 50,000 registered denominations worldwide. Of course it stands to reason that there has to be duplicates….right? I have been interested in this for a long time and was happy when the topic came up while I was in collage, not by the professor, but by a student that had gathered information on this.

He estimated that 70 percent of these numbers were unintentional duplicates that were caused by regional naming. By duplicates I mean churches of very similar beliefs. Then 10 percent of the churches that split, were because of personality conflicts in the administration or the congregations. Of course there is a certain percentage of unknown causes, but the rest of them are mostly due to doctrinal differences. So then this reduces the number of denominations that actually have different beliefs significantly.

Some of the divisions involves the decision to focus on an element of salvation, a particular Christian event in the Bible, to focus on one of the members of the Trinity, styles of sharing the Gospels, or the type of administrative structure of the church. Still there are doctrinal differences between these types of churches that can include moral tolerances.

Still this does not explain how so many doctrines or beliefs can be rendered from the Bible. Over the past several months I have tried to highlight the answer to a lot of this confusion. One of my frequent saying in my book is that, “Someone should have noticed this!” Here on the forum I would go into where they were debating a topic and give them all the scriptures for both sides of the debate. And then challenge them to figure out why this is? I never got any takers

So here I have chosen one of the most divisive topics and I will give examples on how each individual wrote about both sides of the topic in the Bible, that is Christ and the Apostles

The topics;
Grace and Eternal Security and Sin and Punishment.

This is what the Apostle Paul wrote;

Paul---regarding Grace and Eternal Security

Roman 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1st Corinthians 1:8-9 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Roman 4:7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul--regarding Sin and Punishment.
2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Romans Chapter 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace & 6:18 Being then free from sin, you become the servants of righteousness.

Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom:1:32: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

The Apostle Peter
Peter—regarding Grace and Eternal Security

Peter in Acts 2:38-39 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

1st Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1st Peter 3:17-18 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

1st Peter 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:

Sir you seeking your answer in the wrong place. The answer lays in the Lord. The apostle wrote that once a person receives Christ through the Gospel at that point you don’t need men to teach you the truth. The Holy Spirit will teach you all truth. Why so many different denominations. There founded by men and not God. God is not the author of confusion, men are. Always seek your understanding from the Lord.

 

[Daniel Veler]

Those are just titles, labels, sub-titles, "We are a little different than the church down the street, we are casual, they dress up, we practice spiritual gifts, they don't, our music is fresh, theirs is old fashioned hymns", bla, bla,bla.
You might as well say there are 2.65 billion denominations. Each one of us a is different denomination unto ourselves, yet part of the Body of Christ.
Each cell in an organism has a function within a molecule, within a fiber, within an organ among all the systems. We are all living different lives yet on the same path. The person sitting next to you at church has had a different life, different challenges and tests. They would also argue with you about the meaning of certain scriptures but mostly all of would agree about the fundamentals, the essentials. We have faith in Christ who died for our sins and rose in the third day. Christ is the body and we are in him, who habe faith. There is only one body.
So don't worry about the differences. We war not against flesh and blood but against the unseen spiritual forces of Satan and his demons.
That said, we get caught up in our fleshy desires and behave badly, causing feuds between us.
If an on fire Christian couple who loves each other and get married can have quarrels and differences of opinion, why would you think the Body filled with churches wouldn't? If we all walked in the Spirit all the time we would be in unity. But God has factored all our blunders, defects, sinful behavior and evil into His perfect plan so that the Body of Christ is right on course, exactly where He wants it. He ordained wars and says there is a time for war - because of evil. He balances out good and evil. He is the Restrainer of evil and allows it for His purpose. He knows our flesh gets in the way, but we won't always have our flesh and that is the goal.
It's all good, don't worry.



Don't forget to add in the non-Trinitarians. I wouldn't say Calvinists are heretics though.

Actually it is for all who have faith in Christ.


Grace (unmerited favor) is from God. Calling it hyper would be saying He's giving us too much. Salvation is by Grace through faith. And that is ordered and dispensed by God. We can't control that, we believe it. Heaven gets filled with holy people only. Sin dwells in the members of our flesh and we lose that when we die. So our purely washed spirits go to Him white as snow.


"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life and there are few who find it."
Judgment Day will be devastating to probably 2/3 of the population.
The Body right now consists of about 1/3 and that is the remnant.
1/3 is narrow ... half would not be narrow ... more than half would be wide. So there you have it - narrow is the gate. And Jesus spoke of the Gehenna eleven times. Sheol is mentioned 31 times. Judgment is mentioned 15 times. Two thirds of Revelation is about a Great Tribulation period of judgment. Wrath and indignation are stored up for many and reserved for a specific time and place.
He does not desire that any perish, but many resist, rebel and therefore choose their destiny.


He is in Heaven - not very poor.

Judgment has been given all those that die in unbelief suffer eternal damnation. That is their sentence. Pray that God sends laborers into the world to preach Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Both of these scriptures are from the Apostle Paul...

Roman 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

This is the issue. Without adding a whole lot of words to these verses, they are in contradiction to each other. This presents a problem for the Fundamentalist's that hold to sola scriptura because neither of these scriptures are entirely accurate. Not to mention the fact that most have issues with believing that scriptures contradict each other. The problem is that these types of scriptures fill the New Testament because everyone in the New Testament is using this religious literary style.

You believe it is the literary style that makes these 2 verses seem to war with one another?

Why cant it be a possibility that one is assuming he is in Christ but is not? Could he be assuming that a downpayment of the Spirit in him is himself in Christ when it is only Christ in him as yet?

Could it be that abide in Me and I in you are two things rather than one thing as we assume?

When we read that if we abide in Him we do not sin, yet we clearly see we sin, wouldnt the most logical thought be: well then, I must not be abiding in Him yet?

 

[Grailhunter]

You believe it is the literary style that makes these 2 verses seem to war with one another?

They are not at war.
They are two ends of the spectrum, spoken by the same person and this happens throughout the New Testament on the most important topics by almost all that are writing l
You should read the opening statements to understand what this is about.

Why cant it be a possibility that one is assuming he is in Christ but is not? Could he be assuming that a downpayment of the Spirit in him is himself in Christ when it is only Christ in him as yet?

Could it be that abide in Me and I in you are two things rather than one thing as we assume?

When we read that if we abide in Him we do not sin, yet we clearly see we sin, wouldnt the most logical thought be: well then, I must not be abiding in Him yet?

This whole thing here looks like you are taking this to personnel level. That is not what this is about. If you have issues about whether you abide in Christ or if Christ abides in you....start a thread or PM me and we will get that settled.

Other than that, read the opening statements.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I did read them, and I now have to somewhat sheepishly admit that what I picked up was that you were intending to say it was a lack of understanding the literary style that was the problem why we have trouble reconciling 2 seemingly opposing verses. It appears you were not at all saying what i thought you were saying!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But I did absolutely understand that you were not saying they war with one another, which was why I used the words "seem to" war with one another.

 

[Grailhunter]

I did read them, and I now have to somewhat sheepishly admit that what I picked up was that you were intending to say it was a lack of understanding the literary style that was the problem why we have trouble reconciling 2 seemingly opposing verses. It appears you were not at all saying what i thought you were saying!

Well it is a new topic. You can go through and look at each person and see that they speak to both ends of the spectrum. So you can see what I am saying is there.

You can watch the debates here and see that a lot of people have picked one end of the spectrum or the other. And because they have their pocket full of favorite scriptures that they have gotten from the Bible....they think that is the bottom line. Don't get me wrong I am all for a good debate and I have a sense of humor. But I also know that in some cases it hurt deeper than I or most intend.

You can review the scriptural examples I gave for this topic...and you can apply it to other topics.....if you have an interest in a specific topic I have hundreds of files on debate material that I can show you on both ends of the spectrum on various topics.

They do not apply this religious literary style to what you need to do for salvation....that is a message that they kept very straight forward.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As to the example I used, it has to do with tying together the Roman's and galatians verses you gave but... I should not have assumed all would see that connection without me explaining how I came to it. Sorry

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well it is a new topic. You can go through and look at each person and see that they speak to both ends of the spectrum. So you can see what I am saying is there.

Yes, I have seen it. It is as episkopos used to say, that there are ditches on both sides of the road and you need to walk in the middle so you dont fall into one of them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

They do not apply this religious literary style to what you need to do for salvation....that is a message that they kept very straight forward.

So you were saying it was a literary style and I was not wrong on that? I see it as more of a scale that needs to be balanced and if it isnt balanced, you dont yet understand what you think you understand. Men have an unbalanced diet when they insist only on eating what is sweet to their palate. But they had to eat the passover lamb with bitter herbs and the prophet said, I ate the words he gave me and they were sweet in my mouth but became bitter in my stomach.

 

[Grailhunter]

As to the example I used, it has to do with tying together the Roman's and galatians verses you gave but... I should not have assumed all would see that connection without me explaining how I came to it. Sorry

As with these two scriptures here...
Roman 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Romans 8:1 and scriptures like it suggest that salvation is so absolute that no sin or no amount of sin is even considered.

Where as Galatians 5:21 and scriptures like are a strict warning against sinning and the ramifications of the punishment for them.

The Jews of the biblical era understood the strictness of the Law. But the Gentiles, who would make up the majority of Christianity in very short order, had no understanding of the strictness of the Law. They came from a religion that a sin, meant your arrow missed the target...they had no religious transgressions of morality. So the actual Gospel message that was given to them was reasonably simple. That message today is reasonably simple if you stick with the intent of the scriptures. Like I said in post #3...

But the simplest, concept is that salvation is solid as a rock for your average Christian. Your average Christian will sin and ask forgiveness and Grace will cover that. And those sins are between them (you) and Christ. Christ was sacrificed for a plan that would be highly successful.

But your average Christian is not going to be LGBTQ.
Your average Christian is not going to make a life out of drugs.
Your average Christian is not going to be an abortion doctor or staff.
Your average Christian is not going to be a serial killer.
Your average Christian is not gong to be a child molester.
Your average Christian is not going to get involved with the occult.

For Christians, sinful lifestyles hold the most potential for a path to hell. And there are those that take the side that if you can live a sinful lifestyle.... that you were not saved to begin with. Of if you can do the most evil of sins that you were not saved to begin with.
I am on the fence on this, I think it is possible for some of the cases.

The other thing that I see on the forum is people carrying around a bunch of baggage from before they were saved. I am concerned about that. Some say it makes them strong, but there is a lot of pain and sorrow in that baggage as well as memories that Satan can accuse you of. But that is not the concept of salvation. Along with that baggage is not only the sins they have committed, but the sins of those that have done them wrong....and that pain. Because that victim does not exist anymore those events need to forgotten....to the extent that is possible. A new Christian in Christ should hold no grudges or pain.

And that is why the analogy of Baptism is so important. When you come out of that water, as far as God is concerned, all those past sins never occurred because that person no longer exists in God's mind. So that person starts their walk with Christ with a clean slate. There were people in history that would change their name, more or less a baptismal name...to illustrate the new person in Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As with these two scriptures here...
Roman 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Romans 8:1 and scriptures like it suggest that salvation is so absolute that no sin or no amount of sin is even considered.

Where as Galatians 5:21 and scriptures like are a strict warning against sinning and the ramifications of the punishment for them.

I see what God is piecing together for you and it's very good. God accepts righteous men. They do not have to worry if they continue to keep that same trust they started with. He says a righteous man will live by his trust. He makes a place for them. That is never in dispute.

 

[Randy Kluth]

James was a Jewish Christian and Paul was a Gentile Christian, even though He was Jewish, and He had special instruction from Christ.

Christ Laws are vastly superior to anything the Old Covenant could offer. Remember polygamy and selling your daughter as a sex slave was covered by the 613 Mosaic Laws....not our Laws, not our Spirit, not Christianity.

The Law is a beautiful thing, and did not condone generational slavery, immorality, nor did it sanction polygamy as the ideal--see Solomon. Such laws were given with the understanding that people are flawed and need to operate in the culture they are dealt, assuming it is not unholy. The hope was to establish a workable standard for imperfect men who wanted to live in covenant with God. As such, it was a divine Law, and worthy of observance by the Hebrews of that time.

I don't separate Paul and James into separate categories. There's no basis for that except that we all have our own individual callings, our own individual mission territories. We are all NT, and being Jewish or non-Jewish, ethnically, doesn't reflect in any way on our Salvation.

At one time being Jewish was critical to being under the national covenant between God and Israel. But nationality no longer plays any role. God's plan has always been to begin with Israel, and then to reach out to all nations.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you can find an example of sprinkling baptism in the Bible, you would take us all to school.

You do not have to do that. (mysticism) All you have to do is take Christ at His word. Baptism is important but Christ did not back baptism as much as He did communion.

There are 2 ways to interpret Communion, with a "mystical' interpretation or with a "symbolic" interpretation. It doesn't consist of just reading this. It consists of your presumption of what Jesus meant to say.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But your average Christian is not going to be LGBTQ.
Your average Christian is not going to make a life out of drugs.
Your average Christian is not going to be an abortion doctor or staff.
Your average Christian is not going to be a serial killer.
Your average Christian is not gong to be a child molester.
Your average Christian is not going to get involved with the occult.

For Christians, sinful lifestyles hold the most potential for a path to hell. And there are those that take the side that if you can live a sinful lifestyle.... that you were not saved to begin with. Of if you can do the most evil of sins that you were not saved to begin with.
I am on the fence on this, I think it is possible for some of the cases.

This is the letter. It is the Spirit that will avail a man. The letter can actually do the opposite if a man condemns another man for doing outwardly what he himself does in spirit, in his heart. Your average Christian is, in fact, a murderer, but often doesn’t yet know it. If he continues to trust, God will show him when he is ready to bear it.

 

[Amazed@grace]

It's the human condition. No matter what we have to personalize everything so that we can relate to and with it.

An incorporeal spirit that exists within all of existence is just too immense.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is the letter. It is the Spirit that will avail a man. The letter can actually do the opposite if a man condemns another man for doing outwardly what he himself does in spirit, in his heart. Your average Christian is, in fact, a murderer, but often doesn’t yet know it. If he continues to trust, God will show him when he is ready to bear it.

The average Christian is a murderer? Uh, no!

We all have a sin nature, but that doesn't make us murderers. Even if we are guilty of some form of murder, all sin can be forgiven. But the standard for the Christian life is certainly not murder!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The average Christian is a murderer? Uh, no!

We all have a sin nature, but that doesn't make us murderers. Even if we are guilty of some form of murder, all sin can be forgiven. But the standard for the Christian life is certainly not murder!

Anger in your heart is to have already murdered. It is hard to hear, but if you are able to accept it, it is true.
And yes, all sin can be forgiven, so the true danger is in condemning someone who does outwardly what you do hiddenly, because that is called hypocrisy, telling others not to do what you yourself do.

men judge by the outward appearance (the outside of the cup)but God judges the motives and motions of the heart (the inside of the cup.)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Judgment has been given all those that die in unbelief suffer eternal damnation. That is their sentence. Pray that God sends laborers into the world to preach Christ.

That is the traditional belief. I believe "aionios" has variable meanings. When it is applied to our temporal realm, things that will someday pass away, it means ages, lifetimes, generations, epoch. When it is applied to God, His domain or oir salvation, then it means eternal.
So everlasting should be translated as age-lasting or age-during.
Here is the key. Hades and Death, which are part of this cursed earth, are both cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed after the Millennial Kingdom and ALL FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY and God creates a New Heaven and a New earth, where there will be pain no more, not even knowledge of it, then Hell is not eternal, it was part of the former things that passed away. 2 Peter 3:10 describes this main event. What purpose would God have to sustain billions of souls in eternal torment for sinning a mere lifetime which to somebmat have only been a few decades? Os that the justice that our Lord has demonstrated throughout history? No, it has always been fair and for a time, an age or ages.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That is the traditional belief. I believe "aionios" has variable meanings. When it is applied to our temporal realm, things that will someday pass away, it means ages, lifetimes, generations, epoch. When it is applied to God, His domain or oir salvation, then it means eternal.
So everlasting should be translated as age-lasting or age-during.
Here is the key. Hades and Death, which are part of this cursed earth, are both cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed after the Millennial Kingdom and ALL FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY and God creates a New Heaven and a New earth, where there will be pain no more, not even knowledge of it, then Hell is not eternal, it was part of the former things that passed away. 2 Peter 3:10 describes this main event. What purpose would God have to sustain billions of souls in eternal torment for sinning a mere lifetime which to somebmat have only been a few decades? Os that the justice that our Lord has demonstrated throughout history? No, it has always been fair and for a time, an age or ages.

I have struggled with all this. I do not think we are born with eternal life within us. It says, and then (after the fall) Adam had a son born in HIS own image. But I think we make assumptions that are inaccurate with verses. And yet, satan seems to have eternity and, terrifyingly, some men will be in outer darkness for eternity, but even that I am not certain of, but it says hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and nowhere do I read the outer darkness will be thrown there.

But satan does seem to have eternity by what I read, though I don’t know how it’s possible.