Hi to all ChristiansI found this post on a another section of the forum and after reading it was quite incensed by what the user had said. I thought I'd place it here for you to comment on.post by josiahdefender: Here's the way if works. God saves by his own Election. He choses whom he will save, he then sends the Spirit of God to preach to them by preachers, friends etc, using the word of God to bring the truth of God the incorruptable seed..and plant it in his heart. God regenerates the sinner and the sinner calls upon Jesus Christ in faith and repentance. God then adopts and justifies, he begins to live out his life as a child of God** end of quoteThat is an absolute preposterous statement where in your right mind did you find such a belief ? If what you've implied was to be true which it is most HOLY not then where does FREE WILL come in to it.
John 6:43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.From your standpoint, verse 45 applies, but it is not the whole truth as of verse 44 which applies to what josiahdefender stated.Ask yourself why those that do not come to Jesus.John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Those that do not want to have their evil deeds reproved will not come to the Light. Those that seek God, will by the Father be drawn unto the Son. To edify further by His grace of what you are saying is not the complete truth...the disciples were commissioned to preach the Gospel everywhere, right? And yet...Acts 16: 6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. So what had happened? God knew that at that time, no one in Asia nor Mysia would receive the Gospel for no one was seeking Him, but God knew whom was in Macedonia. This is a comfort knowing that God knows all those that seek Him as He will make sure they get the Gospel to believe. He is the One at work. Those that seek Him need Him to draw them unto the Son so that they may see the truth and the truth may set them free. We as servants of the Lord cannot boasts of saving anyone for it is God that causes the increase.1 Corinthians 3: 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.So if God draws all men unto the Son to open their eyes and ears and soften their hearts to believe, where does free will enter into making that choice to save oneself by believing? Consider these verses below:John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.So where does free choice enters into? I see it in those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the Light, but God does not need to waste time on those that seek Him not. Those that seek Him God knows, but the believing part is by His grace as well as salvation is by the grace of God.Deuteronomy 29:3The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.That was even unto God's chosen people.Job 13:1Lo, mine eye hath seen all this, mine ear hath heard and understood it. 2What ye know, the same do I know also: I am not inferior unto you. 3Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God.Job 42:4Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.Even Job realizes that he is where he is in his relationship of God because of God.Psalm 94: 8Understand, ye brutish among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise? 9He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? 10He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?Proverbs 20:11Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. 12The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.God can keep those from hearing and seeing the truth.Isaiah 6: 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,And we can see how God can use anyone to serve Him.Isaiah 32:2And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. 3And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken. 4The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.So this all leads to God foreknowing those that seek Him and those that prefer their evil deeds over coming to the Light and so why would God open their eyes and ears to believe by drawing them unto the Son?Romans 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Dear brother GOD put us on this earth to make that decision for our self’s not him for us. The correct answer to your false statement is that salvation is in our own hands, we will SAVE our self’s by independent work the repentance of our sins having faith in Christ and doing the will of GOD. It’s called reconciliation with your maker.If GOD was to choose who he wanted to be saved then this whole existence is a waist of time.
Salvation is not surely not in our hands. The fact that you believe shows you have been bought witha rpice and sealed with that Spirit of promise. God doesn't save anyone in vain. Only one was lost as prophesied, but that was before His crucifixion.John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.Ephesians 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Matthew 20: 8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.So salvation is the same for all those that believed.. from the newbie to those that have been a christian all their lives.Titus 3: 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.So salvation is a free gift as He has enbale us to receive Him, and so living the christian life by faith in the Son of God as well as serving Him is also by the grace of God and not done by the will of men nor the flesh so that the just shall live by faith.Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Galatians 3: 1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham..... 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.....26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.So we are not the one saving ourselves for that glory belongs to Jesus Christ the Lord, Our Saviour.1 Corinthians 1: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
God can not interfere with Free Will. We are all given a choice to follow God or men even after being a Christian. (John 14:15) Can God make a decision for us? The answer is a complete NO! God wants ALL of his children to be saved. (II Peter 3:9, Matthew 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 3:3) Good works and evil works can not save us. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6) Only putting our Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. To do that we have to follow God's.Again, it is our choice whether we want God and to follow Him in His Words (to be saved) or we can follow men (and not be saved). Our choice to make that decision, not God.
What I have posted above by His grace would defer greatly from what you have stated. If sin seperated us from God, then God is the only One that can draw us unto the Son and cause the increase for our eyes and ears to believe to be saved.
