Who created evil and death?

[veteran]

where then would evil be coming from if God is not the origin of evil?

It's been covered in-depth here within this Thread already in previous posts.

Many of God's people don't really understand enough of God's Word about the devil's origin and how evil began, when our Heavenly Father did show us in His Word. Proof of that is how even here thus far within this Thread, it still has not yet progressed to the point of how iniquity could be found in Satan, since God originally created him a good cherub that was perfect in his ways (Ezek.28).

If that's not enough, many here still don't have a clue as to when it was when Satan first rebelled against God and drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him.

We should first define what 'evil' is refereed to in Isaiah 45:7 from the translations that use this word.


So what is so evil about violent natural phenomenon unless they affect people. I would say it is the people subject to these natural disasters, and those that empathize with them that call it evil. A storm in the gaseous clouds of Jupiter is not evil. Good and evil is often used to subjectively describe some action that has an affect on someone. Good an evil is definitely subjective in the hearts of men, otherwise God wouldn't have written Isaiah 5:20. The evil we should be concerned with are the things considered evil in the Eyes of the Lord,

What do we do to know what God considers evil? He is unsearchable. Romans 3:10-18 And “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." Mark 10:18
2 Chronicles 12:14 says "He did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the Lord."
We know that if you seek you will find. Have Faith in him and persist in your attempts of doing good.

Seeking to define the word for "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is not enough, since it is only in relation to this 'present' world since the man Adam. Since Satan began evil, God uses it for this present world since Adam. Not so for the world to come.

Only when you begin to understand that there was another world before the time of Adam when Satan originally rebelled against God, will you begin to be able to understand how the concept of evil began with the devil, and not from God.


Here, can you find the following events in bold having happened at any time within today's world since Adam??

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

 

[Sargento]

LOGABE...

I read what you had to say... but this is what God had to say... Gen. 3:1,

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of
the field which the LORD God had made .

The Devil was made subtle... The 1st Adam was made VERY GOOD (Gen. 1:31).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Adam was made very good in the same way that the serpent was made very good... they were good accordingly to the will and plan of GOD.
To the Christian that lives in GOD even the evil is good because it was made to serve us according to the purpose of GOD.

But Adam was not like a reborn, nor was he perfect or without sin... he was created MAN. He was like any natural man only different in the way that he did not know good and evil before eating from the fruit...
The desire to sin was already there (sinner nature) for they felt the desire for the one thing GOD forbidden (desiring sin comes from sin nature), but they only became aware of that sin and "blameworthy" after gaining the knowledge of what was good and what was evil... before that, hearing GOD or the devil was the same for them.

Good is good and evil is evil, but for GOD and us (Christians) all became good for all happens and exists by HIM and HIS will... so even the bad things that our Father shows or gives us are good because they were created for our benefit ... all is pure for the pure.

Sanhedrin...

Take it literal, God is the origin of good and that of evil and that of all things, name it and God is behind it, always.

Correct.... THAT is GOD.

 

[Dan57]

but they only became aware of that sin and "blameworthy" after gaining the knowledge of what was good and what was evil... before that, hearing GOD or the devil was the same for them.

God had previously told them that on the day they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would surely die. So imo, Adam and Eve already had foreknowledge of the evil that would befall upon them if they chose to partake of the forbidden tree. Eve may have been deceived and chose to believe the devil, but God had told them in advance, which made them guilty of sin. Sin is disobedience to God, evil is the result of sin.

 

[Eltanin]

The Hebrew word that was translated into English as 'good' could be more literally translated as 'functional'... God's proclamation of "...it is good..." would be more accurately translated "... it is functional..."

You could take it to mean God was saying that He was proclaiming that what He had made was working how He wanted it to. It wasn't necessarily a proclamation that what He created was 'not evil'. Not that I am saying that what He created was evil... It just 'worked'.

 

[aspen]

That is a good or functional point, Eltanin. Good does mean functional in this sense - perfection is when we function as we were created to function, all the time.

 

[Sargento]

Dan...

Well, after seeing what you say about GOD I'm not trying to convince of this, but I'll answer it for the sake of others.

They do not know good or evil nor they understand what was the difference between life (good) or death (evil) so that they might even not want death ... that, plus the devil tempting them, plus the flesh that lusted the fruit (which shows the sinner nature already existed in them), lead them to the only possible choice... it was a matter of time.

If you join naive creatures that naturally desire something and not understanding what is the difference between good and bad, with that something at reach, and with the most crafty tempter what do you think will happen?

Join in the same room a lion (natural killer), a jumping gazelle (fruit), and on top of it make that lion hungry (tempter) ... then watch the result.


They choose? Of course they did... they choose what their natural desire craved because for them there was no good or evil... GOD and the serpent to them were the same... one said "don't eat", but the other said "eat", so seeing no arm in eating (for they do not know good and evil) and desiring it they made the only possible choice.

Constrained by nature and by knowledge and on top of it with a crafty tempter to tempt them ... THE SET WAS READY FOR THEIR FALL.



ELTAIM...

All is GOD because it serves HIS will... even the serpent was good, even evil it self was good for it was created for a purpose ... that's why Paul said "all is pure for the pure ones"; because the pure understand were all things comes from and why.

 

[veteran]

LOGABE...


Adam was made very good in the same way that the serpent was made very good... they were good accordingly to the will and plan of GOD.
To the Christian that lives in GOD even the evil is good because it was made to serve us according to the purpose of GOD.

But Adam was not like a reborn, nor was he perfect or without sin... he was created MAN. He was like any natural man only different in the way that he did not know good and evil before eating from the fruit...
The desire to sin was already there (sinner nature) for they felt the desire for the one thing GOD forbidden (desiring sin comes from sin nature), but they only became aware of that sin and "blameworthy" after gaining the knowledge of what was good and what was evil... before that, hearing GOD or the devil was the same for them.

Good is good and evil is evil, but for GOD and us (Christians) all became good for all happens and exists by HIM and HIS will... so even the bad things that our Father shows or gives us are good because they were created for our benefit ... all is pure for the pure.

Sanhedrin...


Correct.... THAT is GOD.

That's not really the Biblical way to look at it. Evil and death are destined to be destroyed, which is enough to know that it was not in God's original order of things.

When making comparisons of God using evil for this present world, that in no way can be used to assign evil as some natural thing that God created. God uses evil for His purposes during this present world since Adam. He will destroy death and evil in the world to come and it will no longer exist forever.

Since Satan rebelled, for this world God specifically allows evil and uses Satan to punish the rebellious of this world. In the world to come, God is going to destroy both evil and them.

Therefore, the Biblical way of looking of evil forces us to consider the way God's original creation was prior to Satan's rebellion when He made Satan perfect in his ways but he then became evil, and then a look at this present world, and then a look at their destruction in the world to come. Even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a symbol for Satan himself originally created as a good cherub, but then became evil having sinned from the beginning.

 

[aspen]

Is it just to punish people for committing sin when you want them to commit the sin?

 

[veteran]

Is it just to punish people for committing sin when you want them to commit the sin?

What kind of notion is that?

 

[zhavoney]

Knowing that God created all things, so also created evil, right?

But some say that God is love and therefore can not have created evil, is it?

So how do we Understand this passage?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaías 45:7

It means exactly what it says. Anyone who would judge God by their understanding of Good and Evil is still fallen and needs to find out who God is by studying His word. this includes forgetting everything you think you know and to stop listening to men.

Deuteronomy 32
39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

 

[veteran]

It means exactly what it says. Anyone who would judge God by their understanding of Good and Evil is still fallen and needs to find out who God is by studying His word. this includes forgetting everything you think you know and to stop listening to men.

Deuteronomy 32
39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

And anyone who presumes to speak for God, especially when God already showed us the answer to the question in His Word, is Biblically illiterate.

Let's see you put your money where your mouth is... explain this verse in contrast to Isaiah 45:7...

Ps 5:4
4 For thou art not a God That hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
(KJV)

 

[zhavoney]

And anyone who presumes to speak for God, especially when God already showed us the answer to the question in His Word, is Biblically illiterate.

Let's see you put your money where your mouth is... explain this verse in contrast to Isaiah 45:7...

Ps 5:4
4 For thou art not a God That hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
(KJV)

Wickedness as defined by God is not what you are thinking it is what you are doing.

 

[veteran]

Wickedness as defined by God is not what you are thinking it is what you are doing.

Assigning the mere creation of the concept of 'evil' to God is... wickedness. The devil sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said. And God originally created Satan a good cherub in the beginning like He showed in Ezekiel 28. Satan rebelled against God. Do you know HOW Satan rebelled against Him, what first sin he committed?

That's why Isaiah 45:7 cannot... be used as some idea that the origin of 'evil' began with God, because by the time Satan had rebelled and God cast him down, evil was then begun by the devil himself. This is why our Lord Jesus said in John 8 that the devil was a lier and murderer from the beginning.

And thus for THIS WORLD, after Satan had brought 'evil', God USES it and him for THIS WORLD (Isa.10). And that's how we are to understand the Isaiah 45:7 verse. In Isaiah 10, God reveals the devil as nothing but a punishing rod that is to be cast into the fire, and even mocks as if the stick had its own will for this world.

 

[zhavoney]

Deuteronomy 30
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Luke 9
62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Deuteronomy 32
39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

The word satan is an ancient Hebrew word that means "adversary of God" It is not a specific being or person. That is why Christ called Peter Satan. Because he was being the adversary of God.

Matthew 16
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

 

[servant]

I don't necessarily advocate this theory, but am only advancing it to answer the question and interpret the passage.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.

I'm sure some of you have heard of the term tzimtzum from Kabbalah teaching. It is a term they use to describe what God did in the Creation. They purport that God contracted his presence to make 'space and will' and is the area in God where the creation was formed. The creation in this space of good necessitates the creation of evil, just as the creation of light allows for darkness. It isn't that God created 'evil' because he wanted it in the creation, but is a byproduct of creating good and freewill.

 

[aspen]

What kind of notion is that?

It is a very bad notion, but it is being taught consistently on this board by people who believe that we must know evil to know good.

 

[servant]

Death is the result of life in our realm but not in the realm that we will eventually abide within. In eternity there is no time, so in consequence there is no death. Death is irrelevant because time is not a factor. Yet, for now, ours has to do with our organic body that is made up of the energy that comprises all of universal matter The Lord revealed that creation would be re-done, so how this energy is reconstituted is yet a mystery, but I'm fairly certain the structures will be made of 'building block stuff' that will place our current understanding of matter as tinker toy material .

Eternity with the Lord is going to amaze us for, well....eternity.

 

[Robertson]

The Father created all things. Therefore, He created Lucifer. We know Lucifer was a son of the morning, a bright and shining star, obviously someone pretty powerful and persuasive. But, Lucifer wanted more power. He wanted to be above his father, he wanted all the glory of the Father and to have dominion over us. So much so, that he was willing to rebel against the Father and to take 1/3 of us with him in that rebellion. The reason that all this was possible was because God created and allowed freedom of choice. We all, including Lucifer, have our agency to follow the Father's commandments and will, or to not. This did not originate with Adam, but at the very moment when God told the beings that He created that they are free to choose.

Lucifer is cast down to the earth with the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that decided to follow him and they are here tempting us to this day. It is the only way that we truly learn that we want to follow God, even when we have to do it by faith for the time being. It is so the joy will be so much better.

 

[veteran]

I don't necessarily advocate this theory, but am only advancing it to answer the question and interpret the passage.


I'm sure some of you have heard of the term tzimtzum from Kabbalah teaching. It is a term they use to describe what God did in the Creation. They purport that God contracted his presence to make 'space and will' and is the area in God where the creation was formed. The creation in this space of good necessitates the creation of evil, just as the creation of light allows for darkness. It isn't that God created 'evil' because he wanted it in the creation, but is a byproduct of creating good and freewill.

That sounds reasonable, but it doesn't cover the Isaiah 45:7 verse which was said and written long after... Satan had rebelled against God. The Isaiah 45:7 verse is about THIS present world, not... back to the time of God's original creation.

And furthermore, the Jewish Kabbalah is rifled with Mysticism which is not from nor of our Heavenly Father.

The Father created all things. Therefore, He created Lucifer. We know Lucifer was a son of the morning, a bright and shining star, obviously someone pretty powerful and persuasive. But, Lucifer wanted more power. He wanted to be above his father, he wanted all the glory of the Father and to have dominion over us. So much so, that he was willing to rebel against the Father and to take 1/3 of us with him in that rebellion. The reason that all this was possible was because God created and allowed freedom of choice. We all, including Lucifer, have our agency to follow the Father's commandments and will, or to not. This did not originate with Adam, but at the very moment when God told the beings that He created that they are free to choose.

Lucifer is cast down to the earth with the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that decided to follow him and they are here tempting us to this day. It is the only way that we truly learn that we want to follow God, even when we have to do it by faith for the time being. It is so the joy will be so much better.

Good to see others here at least getting past the event of sin by Adam and Eve in considering Satan's rebellion of old and the concept of free will.

But still, God did not create evil by also creating free will for His children. It's because of Scripture like the Psalms 5:4 verse, evil and wickdedness cannot dwell with Him. That's pointing to the origin of evil being from somewhere else. This matter is much more simple per God's Word once we stay within Scripture bounds on it.

a. old world prior to Satan's rebellion - no evil, no wickedness, no sin, Satan perfect in his ways (Ezek.28, Ezek.31)
b. Satan rebelled and sinned, bringing evil and wickedness and death, then judged and sentenced to perdition (Matt.25:41; Rev.12:3-4).
c. this present world since Adam - sin, wickedness, evil
b. Satan, evil, sin and the wicked destroyed (Rev.20).
a. God's future new heavens and a new earth - no evil, no wickedness, no sin, former things past (Rev.21; Isa.65).

By using common sense reasoning like yal are trying to do, while staying within Scripture bounds, we come up with the above picture.
I Jn 1:5
5 This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
(KJV)


Can you imagine the New Jerusalem never being under darkness when our Heavenly Father comes back to earth to dwell with His servants? Hard to imagine isn't it, yet it is written...

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him:
4 And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)

It's the same sense about evil and wickedness in that future time also per verses like Ps.5:4 and 1 John 1:5.