You don't really know what I'm saying. Your mind is in a place where these parts of God's Word are not opened to you at this time. It probably has something to do with those you're listening to instead of listening to God in His Word.Sargento said:
Who created evil and death?
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You're right... I really don't want to know what you are saying, because it doesn't lineveteran said:
up with what God is teaching me. The secret is God using evil that He created for the
Purpose of preparing the Son of God (Jesus), and the Sons of God for the ministry that
is to come in the next age.
The Devil is a tool in God's Hand to prepare us and to make us Overcomers. As we grow
in grace, and learn the mysteries of the Kingdom, we become mature in our thinking and
realize that the Devil isn't as big as we first thought. I stopped giving the Devil credit for
trying to overcome God and His Kingdom a long time ago. Why... because I began to have
ears to hear and eyes to see.
For instance... do we really believe that the Devil could actually wreak havoc in the earth
without God's permission. If we believe that... then our God is too small. I believed that
for a very long time, because I was taught that the Devil was simply acting upon his own
desires. I made him almost equal with the Almighty. Today... I use him to advance the
Kingdom of God. Let me explain, 1st Cor. 5:5 says,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the
destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved
in the day of the Lord Jesus.
If we ask God for the revelation of this scripture it will set us FREE. Paul understood clearly
the purpose of the Devil, and he was showing us how to use him as a tool in your hand.
Paul, what in the world are you doing? Using that old Serpent who was a liar from the day
he was created, even the father of lies. A murderer that has never had truth in him. Why are
you sending this poor guy to him? I can tell you why, because Paul was using evil to turn it
into good. Another scripture for a second witness, 1st Tim. 1:20 says,
20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have
handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to
blaspheme.
I sure hope God is giving someone eyes to see and ears to hear, because as I said in the first
part of this post, it will set you FREE when you understand the purpose of God creating
evil.
Paul experienced the purpose of Satan first hand in 2nd Cor. 12:7,
7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for
this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given
me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-to
keep me from exalting myself!
Wow... do you see that... God was using evil to keep Paul from exalting himself, because there
was no way for Paul to stay humble, because of the many secrets God had revealed to him in
the desert, (Gal. 1:12,17). I could keep going, but I want you to see that God does nothing
without purpose, even using the Devil to correct us.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
The devil is a 'tool' in God's Hand's now, for THIS present world, that is. But not in the world that was when the devil originally was perfect in his ways per the Ezek.28 Scripture and walked upon the mountain of God and right at the stones of fire (God's Altar). That's where you have to separate your thinking, between the time before Satan rebelled, and then the time after he rebelled.logabe said:
I know it takes a lot of pondering to understand it, simply because of our being taught at Church how the devil has always been evil from the start, and that God created him to do evil, but that's NOT the idea God's Word teaches us. God said He originally made him perfect in his ways and the full pattern per Ezek.28.
Thing is with those examples though, they are for THIS PRESENT WORLD, not the world that then was when Satan first rebelled against God. But you are totally right the idea of those rebellious within Christ's Church being handed over to Satan for correction, but that again is for this present world, not the one before when Satan first rebelled.logabe said:
Evil will NOT exist in God's future Eternity. The wicked won't be there. (That's after Christ's future thousand years reign of course).
Nor was Satan created... evil (per Ezek.28).
Might be difficult to believe what God said about the devil in Ezek.28, about him originally being created a good cherub, but then there it is, and one must decide who they will listen to, God or mammon. I can tell you this for sure, there are many other Mysteries of The Kingdom which God has given us in His Word that will not... be understood without first accepting that Ezek.28 Scripture about Satan as written.
Wormwood
Chaps
"I sure hope God is giving someone eyes to see and ears to hear, because as I said in the first part of this post, it will set you FREE when you understand the purpose of God creating
evil." - logabe
So, what you are saying, logabe, is that God created evil so that he had a means of dealing with the evil he had created. Hmmm. I dont think that is very logical. So the one who cannot lie and the one in whom resides no darkness at all is the fountainhead of all lies and darkness by creatively giving birth to and sustaining these evil forces? I find this thinking to be quite contrary to the teaching of Scripture.
A few things should be made clear:
The destructive forces of nature in this world are not "evil." Rather, they are the result of God's curse on a rebellious world. Death, suffering and pain are the fruit of sin. God uses death, suffering and pain as judgement upon sin..as he has always done. Thus, death is evil only in that it reflects the fruit of a wayward and sinful world. Thus, to say that because God sends calamity means that he is the author and creator of evil (perversion, lies, abuse, immorality, greed, lust, etc.) is sheer nonsense in my opinion. I think the Bible makes it evidently clear that God grieves the decisions mankind makes and some of those choices incur God's wrath. This makes no sense if God's sovereignty is determining peoples actions...no matter how defiled and corrupt.
evil." - logabe
So, what you are saying, logabe, is that God created evil so that he had a means of dealing with the evil he had created. Hmmm. I dont think that is very logical. So the one who cannot lie and the one in whom resides no darkness at all is the fountainhead of all lies and darkness by creatively giving birth to and sustaining these evil forces? I find this thinking to be quite contrary to the teaching of Scripture.
A few things should be made clear:
The destructive forces of nature in this world are not "evil." Rather, they are the result of God's curse on a rebellious world. Death, suffering and pain are the fruit of sin. God uses death, suffering and pain as judgement upon sin..as he has always done. Thus, death is evil only in that it reflects the fruit of a wayward and sinful world. Thus, to say that because God sends calamity means that he is the author and creator of evil (perversion, lies, abuse, immorality, greed, lust, etc.) is sheer nonsense in my opinion. I think the Bible makes it evidently clear that God grieves the decisions mankind makes and some of those choices incur God's wrath. This makes no sense if God's sovereignty is determining peoples actions...no matter how defiled and corrupt.
After God created the world and man He said it was very good (perfect).
Then sin entered the world and the whole creation became subject to thorns and thistles, judgments and curses.
Whereas the eating animals were herbivorous have now become carnivorous.
The earth also became subject to poisonous creatures, bacterias, viruses, and the like.
Not only all of the above, but God created evil in the form of earthquakes, hurricanes, volcano eruptions, ...etc., were hundreds or sometimes thousands are killed.
All these happened because of sin
All those in this thread who have been arguing about Ezekiel 28 is incorrect that Satan is in view rather it is man, in my opinion,
In verse 13 = Man was put in Eden. Precious stones refer to man specially those who have become
saved 1 Cor. 3:12.
Verse 14 = The “anointed” cherub is a reference to God Himself. A cherub cannot refer to an angel.
Cherub can also refer to man as he is created in the image of God.
Verse 15 = Man was created perfect. Not Satan.
Verse 16 = Can Isaiah Chapter 14 have reference here? No!
Verse 17 = There is beauty in mankind.
Then sin entered the world and the whole creation became subject to thorns and thistles, judgments and curses.
Whereas the eating animals were herbivorous have now become carnivorous.
The earth also became subject to poisonous creatures, bacterias, viruses, and the like.
Not only all of the above, but God created evil in the form of earthquakes, hurricanes, volcano eruptions, ...etc., were hundreds or sometimes thousands are killed.
All these happened because of sin
All those in this thread who have been arguing about Ezekiel 28 is incorrect that Satan is in view rather it is man, in my opinion,
In verse 13 = Man was put in Eden. Precious stones refer to man specially those who have become
saved 1 Cor. 3:12.
Verse 14 = The “anointed” cherub is a reference to God Himself. A cherub cannot refer to an angel.
Cherub can also refer to man as he is created in the image of God.
Verse 15 = Man was created perfect. Not Satan.
Verse 16 = Can Isaiah Chapter 14 have reference here? No!
Verse 17 = There is beauty in mankind.
You won't find it written anywhere in the Book of Genesis when God first created Satan. The reason is because Satan had already been created long before Adam and Eve, and he had already rebelled against God and was in the role as temptor against Adam and Eve.In Christ said:
The preachers you are listening to don't want to get in the real Truth about all this. They'd rather you believe that old serpent was a real snake, and that Eve ate an apple, which is not written. Some of you brethren here need to mature in Christ away from those old traditions of men that teach such things because they really... don't understand this matter either, which is why they teach old wives tales instead.
God showed in His Word of Ezekiel 28 that He originally created Satan a good cherub, that he was originally perfect in his ways, UNTIL... iniquity was found in him (Ezek.28:13-15).
That means that our Heavenly Father is NOT... the author of evil. Satan is. Satan sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said (1 John 3:8). Apostle John even tells it was for this... reason that "the Son of God" (Jesus Christ) was manifested...
I Jn 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(KJV)
So just where... does all the erroneous ideas that God is the original author of 'evil' come from? It comes from PAGAN IDEOLOGY.
It has always been the PAGAN idolaters that believed The Creator (Whom they did not know) had to have created both good and evil. The middleastern religion of Zoraster held to the idea of two equal gods, one in charge of forces of good and the other in charge of forces of evil.
Add to that the ancient Chinese philosophy of Yin and Yang, i.e., two opposing forces.
Primitive backward superstitous cultures also believed that both good and evil originated from the false pagan gods they believed on. And I haven't even mentioned the paganism of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans yet, and the various gods they made up for forces of nature.
These pagan ideas have even extended... to comic books and later movies made from them!
But God in His Word shows... HE is not the original author of 'evil', and that evil and the one responsible for starting it (Satan) is going to be destroyed in final.
So are there opposing forces of good and evil in this present world? In our realm yes, but NOT... in GOD's realm, nor with Satan working against Him. Why? Because our Heavenly Father also shows us in His Word that He is USING Satan as a punisher upon the rebellious of this world. God even gives us the metaphor of Satan being like a whipping branch (stick) that one uses to whip for correction, and when He's done with that stick it's thrown into the fire (see Isaiah 10).
So that certainly is NOT... any such pagan idea of opposing gods, for our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ are in COMPLETE AND TOTAL control over what Satan does. Our Heavenly Father WANTS us to know that too! But a lot of the preachers out there that don't understand this because they don't really get into all of His Word, they are simply defaulting to old pagan traditions that crept in among the superstitous within Christ's Body long, long ago.
I think in order to effectively understand the answer to the question, "Did God create evil?" We must first define what 'evil' is.
I believe that the question put forth by the OP is more focused on 'evil' equaling sin... but even if 'evil' is equal to those things that hurt us... The answer is still "Yes, God did create it.
God did create sin when he set forth a standard for us to live by. When He created morals, and He wrote His laws upon our hearts, He created the existence of a mark for us to miss. Without having had it defined, there was no wrong or right. Sin is merely "Missing the mark"... When God created a target for us to aim for, he created sin. Without the choice of right or wrong, or good and bad; Without morals, or knowledge, we would have nothing to strive for... The creation of sin was not bad... The creation of sin allowed 'Good' to exist. To define what "Good" is, makes anything "Not good" evil.
In showing us two paths we can take, God showed mercy, by giving us a choice. The existence of sin is not evil, the act of sinning is. God does not sin, He is not evil.
What about death, pain, pestilence, and so forth, did God create those? Why yes, He did.
Yet do you really think that this stuff is evil in the same way as sin? I am sure all of us distinguish the differences of these.
Some things that are 'evil' to us are not 'evil' to God.
Physical pain is a warning to us that something is not right, a call for us to remove ourselves from danger, or address problems within ourselves... Psychological pain is very similar, and it serves non-evil purposes. Pain keeps us safe in some ways; It strengthens us in some ways; It allows us time for action, or it warns us to be still. Just because it is uncomfortable does not make it evil.
Even death, which by most churches is taught to be a result of the original sin, is not evil. Many people see death as senseless, sorrowful, and frightening... But God sees it as a reunification with His children. Without death, our planet would not sustain us. Without death, we could not fully appreciate our lives, our families, or our blessings.
I believe that the question put forth by the OP is more focused on 'evil' equaling sin... but even if 'evil' is equal to those things that hurt us... The answer is still "Yes, God did create it.
God did create sin when he set forth a standard for us to live by. When He created morals, and He wrote His laws upon our hearts, He created the existence of a mark for us to miss. Without having had it defined, there was no wrong or right. Sin is merely "Missing the mark"... When God created a target for us to aim for, he created sin. Without the choice of right or wrong, or good and bad; Without morals, or knowledge, we would have nothing to strive for... The creation of sin was not bad... The creation of sin allowed 'Good' to exist. To define what "Good" is, makes anything "Not good" evil.
In showing us two paths we can take, God showed mercy, by giving us a choice. The existence of sin is not evil, the act of sinning is. God does not sin, He is not evil.
What about death, pain, pestilence, and so forth, did God create those? Why yes, He did.
Yet do you really think that this stuff is evil in the same way as sin? I am sure all of us distinguish the differences of these.
Some things that are 'evil' to us are not 'evil' to God.
Physical pain is a warning to us that something is not right, a call for us to remove ourselves from danger, or address problems within ourselves... Psychological pain is very similar, and it serves non-evil purposes. Pain keeps us safe in some ways; It strengthens us in some ways; It allows us time for action, or it warns us to be still. Just because it is uncomfortable does not make it evil.
Even death, which by most churches is taught to be a result of the original sin, is not evil. Many people see death as senseless, sorrowful, and frightening... But God sees it as a reunification with His children. Without death, our planet would not sustain us. Without death, we could not fully appreciate our lives, our families, or our blessings.
You are right, and God in His Word showed us that too.Eltanin said:
It has to do with the breaking of God's Laws, for that is how Apostle John defined... sin (1 John 3:4).
So what WAS... the very first sin against God??? And who... did it???
Satan did. And that's why Apostle John also said that the devil sinneth FROM the beginning (1 John 3:8).
That's why John also said those who commit sin are of... the devil too (1 John 3:8 again).
That's also why John said the reason was for Christ Jesus coming to die on the cross, which is included in that 1 John 3:8 Scripture also, it was in order to destroy the works of the devil.
Per Ezek.28 and Isaiah 14, Satan committed the very first sin, and it was in his wanting to be GOD Himself. After Satan did that it was all... downhill after that. God judged and sentenced Satan to death for doing that, and our Lord Jesus Christ sealed Satan's eventual destruction upon His cross.
So not only is evil going to be destroyed prior to God's future Eternity, but the one who began it all, Satan, is going to perish too (which is why the title "son of perdition" is specifically about Satan's future perishing).
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So evil is less than obeying God's laws? Hmm......how did God create 'less than'? The law convicted the people of the sins they were already engaged in. Remember Noah and the Flood? They all existed before the law and they were so evil God wiped all but Noah and his family from the face of the earth
How did Abel know the proper sacrifice in that time that would please God if Adam and his knew nothing about God's laws? There's plenty of Genesis Scripture to show that God's laws existed way before Moses' day, the difference was non-accountability with a lot of things until the time of revealing through Moses. This is why even in Gen.9 God tells Noah to not eat the blood.aspen2 said:
So when Apostle John said that the devil sinned from the beginning, and that sin is the transgression of the law, that is exactly what he meant.
Even in Romans Apostle Paul pointed to this idea...
Rom 2:11-15
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(KJV)
Rom 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(KJV)
Here's what I am saying... all evil is the result of Adam's sin. His sin brought mortality or death,Wormwood said:
and because we are born in death we sin (Romans 5:12). The evil was already created by God before
Adam sinned, but it didn't effect anyone until Adam sinned. As someone said in another post, sin is
defined by missing the mark. Evil is only sin if it misses the mark.
God creates evil... but He does not sin. He hits the mark on everything He does. He has a purpose, and
that purpose is sometimes accomplished by God using the evil that He has created. For example, God
used evil to give Job a higher understanding of His purpose Job 42:11-12 says,
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and
all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread
with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him
over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also
gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a
thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. 13 He had also
seven sons and three daughters.
This shows us the basis of the purpose of evil, it is to bless us in the end after God has exposed us to
it. This is in line with Rom. 8:28,
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good
to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
As we mature in God, and understand He does nothing outside of His purpose and will, then we can begin
to see and grasp the hard things knowing that God knows what He is doing.
Let's get back to the missing of the mark. What mark do we miss? Rom. 3:23 says,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
There it is... the Glory of God... our goal is to hit the mark of the Glory of God. When we treat our neighbors
badly, we miss the mark of loving our neighbors as ourselves. We break the divine law and because we reap
what we sow, we expose ourselves to evil, so we can experience the effects of our neighbors feeling. Evil is
not bad within itself, but doing evil is sin. God doesn't sin, but He uses evil to correct our character.
In other words, if you are using evil to hurt someone, you have just sinned. But if you are using evil for the
purpose of correcting someone, you have not sinned (1st Cor. 5:5) (1st Tim. 1:20). Paul's purpose in these
two scriptures was not to hurt them, but to release them from the bondage that they were in. That's why he
exposed them to the Serpent, so they could be saved in the Day of the Lord. It had PURPOSE.
Now let's go back to the Garden. God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and told Adam to not
eat of it or you would die. We know the story... but did God know that Adam was going to disobey? Sure He did.
Adam's sin didn't take God by surprise. God knows the beginning from the end before He created anything, He
knew that Adam was going to sin.
Why didn't God say, "I know Adam is going to sin so I will not create him this way." Because it wasn't His Plan!
That is what we can't accept. God could have made us perfect, but He had a different Plan. Man says... God is
going to put a lot of people in hell forever because of Adam's sin. If God knew Adam was going to sin, and He
knew that most of mankind was going to be lost forever... how responsible is God in this decision? The only way
God could be just in this situation is by reading (Col. 1:20), and believing what Paul is actually telling us.
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things
in earth, or things in heaven.
Now there's some justice! All things will be reconciled to Him! That makes sense now!
God has taken credit for everything under the sun. If it is here He has created it. Our job is to understand the
Purpose of His creation, so we can know why God has done the things He has done. By faith, we understand God
has created all things for His Purpose (Proverbs 16:4).
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for
the day of evil.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
No matter how much you try, that idea that sin in the absolute sense began with Adam doesn't explain how Satan as "that old serpent" was already in his role as temptor in God's Garden of Eden.logabe said:
The first sin in the flesh... began with Adam, but not the very first... sin. Satan committed the very first sin, like Apostle John showed in 1 John 3:8.
I believe the Serpent was a liar from the beginning. We're both on the same page. Whenveteran said:
the Serpent told Eve she wouldn't surely die... He lied... and that's what made him a liar
and a murderer from the beginning. But by him being a liar didn't effect my position with
God. The only thing that effected my position with God was Adam's Sin.
I lost immortality, which is the Glory of God, when Adam disobeyed the commandment of
God. That is my point... by ONE MAN sin entered into the world and death (mortality) is the
cause of my sin (Rom. 5:12). We sin because we are mortal and that mortality was passed
down from Adam. God gave Adam dominion over all the earth and Adam gave up all that
God had given him when he sinned. His sin effects everybody even today.
Adam was the Son of God, and God gave him the authority to rule the earth. In other words,
he was the King of the whole world. There was no death before Adam sinned. Death came
into existence after the fall, and the Serpent was given authority over that death.
Jesus Christ came to destroy the authority over the death that was given to the Devil after
Adam's fall. Jesus Christ came as the "Last Adam", to restore what the First Adam had lost.
Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly, which is, defined as
destroying death inside of each individual that uses their faith in this present day.
What does that mean? It means you have the tree of the knowledge of good and evil inside of
you that was activated when the 1st Adam sinned. It is called the OLD MAN, which is, the First
Adam. The 1st Adam has to die daily in order for the "New Creation Man" to live and grow into
maturity, which is, (The Last Adam).
We have fruits on our trees, and what ever we eat we become. If we eat from the tree that God
has told us to stay away from, we will die spiritually and practice the things of the Devil, and be
in bondage through his subtle words (Gal. 5:19-21).
If we eat from the Tree of Life, which is inside of our garden that is within us, then we will begin
to grow into the New Creation Man. We will begin to listen to God, and the Devil's words will have
no effect on the woman (soul) that is within us. Our spirit and soul will become one in marriage.
What a God! What A Plan!
Logabe
But we both apparently do NOT... believe the same. Because I believe God when He showed us in Ezekiel 28 how He originally... created Satan as an anointed cherub that was perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in him.logabe said:
That means... SOMETHING... happenned between the time after God created Satan a good cherub and his appearance in Eden as "that old serpent" tempting Adam and Eve.
If you're having a hard time considering back to the time PRIOR to Satan tempting Adam and Eve, then know it's not God's Word that is preventing you from seeing that, but men's doctrines instead.
I read what you had to say... but this is what God had to say... Gen. 3:1,veteran said:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of
the field which the LORD God had made .
The Devil was made subtle... The 1st Adam was made VERY GOOD (Gen. 1:31).
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
Take it literal, God is the origin of good and that of evil and that of all things, name it and God is behind it, always.CarlosB said:
if that were true then it would mean this present world today... is PERFECT, since it contains both good and... evil, and if perfect already, then no need for the world to come.sanhedrin said:
Can evil exist in God's future Kingdom in the new heavens and a new earth? No, which is why Apostle Peter said this...
2 Pet 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(KJV)
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We should first define what 'evil' is refereed to in Isaiah 45:7 from the translations that use this word.
What do we do to know what God considers evil? He is unsearchable. Romans 3:10-18 And “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." Mark 10:18
2 Chronicles 12:14 says "He did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the Lord."
We know that if you seek you will find. Have Faith in him and persist in your attempts of doing good.
So what is so evil about violent natural phenomenon unless they affect people. I would say it is the people subject to these natural disasters, and those that empathize with them that call it evil. A storm in the gaseous clouds of Jupiter is not evil. Good and evil is often used to subjectively describe some action that has an affect on someone. Good an evil is definitely subjective in the hearts of men, otherwise God wouldn't have written Isaiah 5:20. The evil we should be concerned with are the things considered evil in the Eyes of the Lord,Dan57 said:
What do we do to know what God considers evil? He is unsearchable. Romans 3:10-18 And “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." Mark 10:18
2 Chronicles 12:14 says "He did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the Lord."
We know that if you seek you will find. Have Faith in him and persist in your attempts of doing good.
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