Who is God's God?

[Behold]

It's certainly no secret that according to Orthodox Christian doctrine, Jesus is God. That brings up an interesting question, one that I've not been able to sort out. Paul and Peter said multiple times that Jesus had a God and Jesus himself said the same thing.

"Let US......make man....in OUR Image".

Father God is not talking about Himself and Gabriel.

So, the 2nd part of "our", became a Virgin Born Savior.

Look at John 1:10

Its says that the God-Man "made the World".

 

[Duck Muscles]

It's certainly no secret that according to Orthodox Christian doctrine, Jesus is God. That brings up an interesting question, one that I've not been able to sort out. Paul and Peter said multiple times that Jesus had a God and Jesus himself said the same thing.

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.​

​

Rom 15:6,

that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

2 Cor 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;​

2 Cor 11:31.

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

Eph 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:​

Eph 1:17,

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:​

Col 1:3,

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,​

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

​

I just can't see anything here other than thatGod has a God. But who God's God is escapes me. If God really has a God, maybe we should be worshiping that God? I don't know.

I see it as a matter of contextual application. Jesus was the father. When ministering to fellow Jews as a human male Jew he would speak in those terms.

The immensity of God could not compress into a human frame. Though it did create that human frame from that immense power source.
So it would not have to fit a human Jesus onto itself as one would don a costume, or clothing.

Every particle of Jesus' being was God. Every moment of his life here was to reach people as one of them because Jesus was one with them.

He would speak of and to Father as all Jews did. How would he have been received had he spoken in first person?

The people would likely have thought him mad. And would not have followed his leading.

 

[Bob Estey]

That could be, but God keeping His God and Father a secret seems pretty extreme. But then I suppose a case could be made for God being rather extreme. Still, it doesn't seem plausible to me.

I don't believe God has a God. But for the sake of argument, let's say he does. In that case his God must have a God, and his God's God must have a God. And his God's God's God must have a God. And his God's God's God's God must have a God. Where does it stop?

 

[O'Darby]

I don't believe God has a God. But for the sake of argument, let's say he does. In that case his God's God must have a God. And his God's God's God must have a God. And his God's God's God's God must have a God. Where does it stop?

Turtles all the way down! Turtles all the way down - Wikipedia

 

[Rich R]

I happen to have just completed a pretty intensive course on Gnosticism. Contrary to popular belief, Gnostic Christianity was not some obscure cult. Long after Jesus, they had churches, a clergy and were infuential enough to be regarded as a genuine threat to orthodox Christianity.

Anyway, their view was that the One True God is completely ineffable, unknowable and impossible even to think about. We know this God only through His "emanations," which included (in some species of Gnosticism) an emanation called the Son. We see the same concept in the OT where God is personified as His Wisdom, Word, etc., which is why the Jews who became Christians could accept Jesus the Son as divine - they were already used to the One God of the Shema being personified. When orthodox Christians speak of the Son being "begat" and the Spirit "proceeding from," this sounds very much like the Gnostic emanations, which is why orthodox Christians carefully avoid what these terms might mean in the context of tne Forbidden Doctrine.

Since we can't discuss the Forbidden Doctrine, any further response is almost impossible. I would simply say that when Jesus refers to His God, He was referring to something like the ineffable One True God of Gnosticism whose fulness can't be captured by limiting terms such as those applied to the persons of the Forbidden Doctrine. I don't think one has to be a Gnostic to understand that all talk of God is ultimately referring to a Wholly Transcendent Other whom we simply can't get our minds around.

And yet Jesus prayed,

"...that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

The word "know" is Greek "ginosko" which any Bible dictionary will define as something like, "To have an intimate relationship with another person"

For God to tell me that He has a God and Father but not tell me who that is seems as me having anything but an "intimate relationship" with Him. I mean, if I were God and told my wife (with whom I have an intimate relationship) that I had a God, I'd certainly tell her who that God was. I think it'd be rather despicable to keep her in the dark as to such a fundamental part of my character.

I try to get my doctrine from the scriptures only. To appeal to Gnosticism in order to understand God and His son seems abhorrent to me. There has to be a better explanation within the scriptures themselves.

 

[Rich R]

I don't believe God has a God. But for the sake of argument, let's say he does. In that case his God must have a God, and his God's God must have a God. And his God's God's God must have a God. And his God's God's God's God must have a God. Where does it stop?

You stated it better than I!

To think God has a God does indeed open a can of worms. That's why I wonder about Jesus talking about his God and Father as well the Peter and Paul talking about the God and Father of Jesus some 7 times.

Assuming Jesus is God, then there is really no escaping the fact that God has a God and a Father. But that leaves us confronted with your observation.

 

[O'Darby]

And yet Jesus prayed,

"...that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

The word "know" is Greek "ginosko" which any Bible dictionary will define as something like, "To have an intimate relationship with another person"

For God to tell me that He has a God and Father but not tell me who that is seems as me having anything but an "intimate relationship" with Him. I mean, if I were God and told my wife (with whom I have an intimate relationship) that I had a God, I'd certainly tell her who that God was. I think it'd be rather despicable to keep her in the dark as to such a fundamental part of my character.

I try to get my doctrine from the scriptures only. To appeal to Gnosticism in order to understand God and His son seems abhorrent to me. There has to be a better explanation within the scriptures themselves.

Well, you would find it "abhorrent" only if you knew nothing about the history of Judaism and Christianity and how the thinking evolved. Gnosticism was simply one example of what many Jews and Christians believed: There is one true, ineffable God whom we can know only as He reveals Himself. One way we can relate to Him is by personifying His attributes - His Wisdom (Sophia) or Word, for example, in the OT. As I stated, this is one reason the Jews - not Gnostics - were able to relate to Jesus as the Divine Son apart from any notion of a Trinity. He was an emanation or expression of God's Word but not the fulness of the one true, ineffable God of the Shema ("The Lord is one"). All these groups thought they had an intimate relationship with the one true, ineffable God but only as He revealed Himself in His attributes.

It appears to me you're just game-playing. You reject the notion of Jesus as God and are trying to paint those who accept Him as God into an analytical corner. You're trying to tap-dance around the doctrine we're not allowed to discuss - isn't this correct? I have no analytical difficulty at all with Jesus' prayer.

 

[Lambano]

Turtles all the way down! Turtles all the way down - Wikipedia

Aw, man! You beat me to it!

 

[O'Darby]

To think God has a God does indeed open a can of worms.

Only because you want it to be a can of worms.

 

[Rich R]

I see it as a matter of contextual application. Jesus was the father. When ministering to fellow Jews as a human male Jew he would speak in those terms.

I see a parallel between Jesus and the people he addressed in John 20:17, namely that they both had the same God and Father. Whoever the God of the people was, Jesus had that same God. I'm not sure that his ministering as a human would change that.

So long as we refrain from adding extraneous thoughts into the very grammatically simple words (probably about 4th grade reading level) of Jesus, Peter, and Paul, I just can't see any way around God not having a God and a Father.

Maybe I'm just too simplistic, but I do recall reading that not even a fool need error when it comes to understand God and His word.

The immensity of God could not compress into a human frame. Though it did create that human frame from that immense power source.
So it would not have to fit a human Jesus onto itself as one would don a costume, or clothing.

Every particle of Jesus' being was God. Every moment of his life here was to reach people as one of them because Jesus was one with them.

He would speak of and to Father as all Jews did. How would he have been received had he spoken in first person?

The people would likely have thought him mad. And would not have followed his leading.

Well, many did think he was mad, including his own family!

Mark 3:21,

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”​

​

In the interest of full disclosure, some translations have "friends" instead of "family," but the point is that even those close to him thought Jesus was mad.

 

[O'Darby]

The Godhead

Concerning the spirituality of Christianity, it’s always best to seek that which is the most important; and wisdom teaches one to regularly seek from God that which has the most spiritual growth at the present time. One can be sure that one of the most important of all issues at all times is...

www.christianityboard.com

@Netchaplain has hit the nail on the head from the perspective of one who accepts that Jesus is God.

 

[Behold]

In the interest of full disclosure, some translations have "friends" instead of "family," but the point is that even those close to him thought Jesus was mad.

Jesus already clarified that for you....

"A Prophet is never honored in His own hometown, or among his relatives.

Mark 6:4

Also, if you read John 1:10, its Says that Jesus made the world.....and that is both, the people and the planet..

And regarding the People, John said, "and they knew Him not".

 

[Rich R]

Well, you would find it "abhorrent" only if you knew nothing about the history of Judaism and Christianity and how the thinking evolved. Gnosticism was simply one example of what many Jews and Christians believed: There is one true, ineffable God whom we can know only as He reveals Himself. One way we can relate to Him is by personifying His attributes - His Wisdom (Sophia) or Word, for example, in the OT. As I stated, this is one reason the Jews - not Gnostics - were able to relate to Jesus as the Divine Son apart from any notion of a Trinity. He was an emanation or expression of God's Word but not the fulness of the one true, ineffable God of the Shema ("The Lord is one"). All these groups thought they had an intimate relationship with the one true, ineffable God but only as He revealed Himself in His attributes.

I am quite familiar with the history of Judaism and Christianity, enough to see that John's gospel, far from incorporating Gnosticism, was in fact a polemic against it.

I think virtually all scholars agree that Jews considered the "word" and "wisdom" of the OT to be personifications of the one true God. They certainly didn't think of them as a separate person from Yahweh.

I also know that the School of Alexandria, from which much of orthodox church doctrine came, had as its expressed goal the unification of the Hebrew scriptures with Greek Philosophy. Is that a good idea? I don't think so, but many do.

It appears to me you're just game-playing. You reject the notion of Jesus as God and are trying to paint those who accept Him as God into an analytical corner. You're trying to tap-dance around the doctrine we're not allowed to discuss - isn't this correct? I have no analytical difficulty at all with Jesus' prayer.

Were the authors of the scripture I quoted playing games, trying to paint anyone in a corner, or tap-dancing? I'm not responsible for those verses creating difficulties for those who think Jesus is God.

 

[Behold]

Were the authors of the scripture I quoted playing games, trying to paint anyone in a corner, or tap-dancing? I'm not responsible for those verses creating difficulties for those who think Jesus is God.

There are no verses that cause a student of the NT to doubt that Jesus is God.

So, implying it, is your "pipe dream".

 

[Rich R]

Jesus already clarified that for you....

"A Prophet is never honored in His own hometown, or among his relatives.

Very true.

Mark 6:4

Also, if you read John 1:10, its Says that Jesus made the world.....and that is both, the people and the planet..

And regarding the People, John said, "and they knew Him not".

Good verses, but they don't say who God's God and Father is which is the subject of the OP.

 

[Bob Estey]

You stated it better than I!

To think God has a God does indeed open a can of worms. That's why I wonder about Jesus talking about his God and Father as well the Peter and Paul talking about the God and Father of Jesus some 7 times.

Assuming Jesus is God, then there is really no escaping the fact that God has a God and a Father. But that leaves us confronted with your observation.

I think it's fairly simple. God chose to come to earth as a man, Jesus. So now there was God plus Jesus.

So now God is walking around on earth. What is he trying to accomplish? For one thing, he's trying to set an example. Therefore, he can't call himself "God," because he doesn't want us to call ourselves "God." He refers to himself as the "Son of man." Everyone else seems to call him the "Son of God."

So what are we to call him? God? Son of God?

Either way, we are correct, it seems to me.

 

[Rich R]

There are no verses that cause a student of the NT to doubt that Jesus is God.

So, implying it, is your "pipe dream".

The scripture I quoted in the OP are not a pipe dream. They are the words of God and the say with no ambiguity whatsoever that Jesus has a God and a Father.

You yourself say Jesus is God. That being the case, then clearly God has a God and a Father. I'm just wondering who that might be.

 

[Behold]

Very true.

Good verses, but they don't say who God's God and Father is which is the subject of the OP.

And some of your post's are simply denying the Deity of Christ, so... that explains my responses.

See your simple Thread is trying to use "Jesus has a God" to deny The Trinity.

Or, more specifically you are denying the Deity of Christ.

So, my posts will reflect that aspect that is your actual goal, here.

 

[Rich R]

I think it's fairly simple. God chose to come to earth as a man, Jesus. So now there was God plus Jesus.

So now God is walking around on earth. What is he trying to accomplish? For one thing, he's trying to set an example. Therefore, he can't call himself "God," because he doesn't want us to call ourselves "God." He refers to himself as the "Son of man." Everyone else seems to call him the "Son of God."

So what are we to call him? God? Son of God?

Either way, we are correct, it seems to me.

There is another option. Maybe Jesus didn't call himself God because he didn't think he was God? If that is the case, then the verses I quoted in the OP would present no difficulties. We wouldn't have to explain who the God and Father of God is.

I think a Father, God in this case, and His son, Jesus in this case, are not the same person at all. We'd have to radically redefine the meaning of "father" and "son" in order to do so.

 

[Behold]

They are the words of God

And the "word of God" says..

"God was manifest in the Flesh" is 1 Timothy 3

"The Word became Flesh" is 1 John .

So, if you simply take those 2 verses and compare them with John 1, "the Word was God'.

= You see that its all the same JESUS... both pre-incarnate and virgin born.

This is why Jesus said...>"Before Abraham was ..born, I AM">.

See that "I AM"? @Rich R ???

That is Jesus defining Himself as God's Name.......as that is what God told Moses His NAME is, when Moses asked the Burning Bush"....> = "what is your Name'.?????

= Jesus just said the SAME......>"before Abraham was born.....I AM".

And that is why Jesus told us...

"If you've seen ME.. you've SEEN the Father"

And ... That is why Jesus told us...

"I and my Father are ONE".

And that is why John 1:10 says that JESUS "made the World".

And that is why Colossians 1:16, says that He is the Creator.

And now, take all that back, to...

"Let... US.... make man ... in OUR Image"... Genesis 1.

And you see that this is God the Father and Jesus pre-incarnate as the WORD" == both of them, as "US"..

And then, to understand all this completely..

Its like this.. Readers...

God SPOKE creation, as "let there BE", and Jesus is the WORD... Pre-incarnate.


So, see all that?

God SPOKE and Jesus is the WORD, pre-incarnate.

A.) = Jesus IS the God-Man.
Fully God, and Fully Human.

Jesus is GOD become one of US... to offer Salvation to ALL of us.

Jesus is God wrapped in Human Flesh.

And that is why Thomas said, upon seeing The Lord after He was Risen from the Dead....>"My Lord and my GOD">.

And Jesus didn't correct Thomas, because God does not correct THE TRUTH.....