Who is Israel?

[Spiritual Israelite]

You may benefit from a word study on this one, it does not mean "convert to symbols", or to make something obscure. It means more to make it known.

I think you are the one who needs to study what the word "signified" means. Yes, it means to make it known, but that doesn't mean something has to be made known literally.

The word "signified" is obviously past tense of the word "signify". Here is one definition for the word "signify":

signify (verb): to be an indication of; a symbol of; have as meaning

So, the word "signify" can be a synonym of the word "symbol", which means the word signified can be used as a synonym of the word symbolized. And, that is the case in Revelation 1:1.

But, of course, Revelation wasn't originally written in English, but in Greek. The Greek word translated as "signified" in Revelation 1:1, "sēmainō", can mean to indicate or make known with signs or symbols. To make something known does not mean that it has to be made known in a literal way. Jesus made things known to His followers using parables that only they could understand. Similarly, only believers can understand the book of Revelation because most of it is written in symbolic text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It says they came of of great tribulation and the context of the chapter is the Tribulation time. Connect the dots.

Take your dispensationalist blinders off and understand that the phrase "great tribulation" can be used in different contexts. In Revelation 7 the context is coming out of great tribulation in the form of persecution and other types of tribulation that believers go through. Other scripture that refers to "great tribulation" refers to God's wrath. You are failing to differentiate between the two.

The world grows cold. The believers shine more and more to that perfect day!

Hello? Jesus said the love of MOST will grow cold. How does that equate to a great multitude that no one can count becoming saved during a time when the love of most will grow cold? You are throwing logic completely out the window here. You make Jesus's question of whether He will find faith on the earth when He returns (Luke 18:8) into a stupid question that He shouldn't have asked because you think He will find faith from a great multitude on earth that no one can count when He returns.

? To me the final king and his government are aptly pictured as a beast and horns.

Are you making any effort at all to see my point? Do you think "the final king and his government" will literally look like a beast with seven heads and ten horns?

 

[rvmb]

Take your dispensationalist blinders off and understand that the phrase "great tribulation" can be used in different contexts. In Revelation 7 the context is coming out of great tribulation in the form of persecution and other types of tribulation that believers go through. Other scripture that refers to "great tribulation" refers to God's wrath. You are failing to differentiate between the two.


Hello? Jesus said the love of MOST will grow cold. How does that equate to a great multitude that no one can count becoming saved during a time when the love of most will grow cold? You are throwing logic completely out the window here. You make Jesus's question of whether He will find faith on the earth when He returns (Luke 18:8) into a stupid question that He shouldn't have asked because you think He will find faith from a great multitude on earth that no one can count when He returns.

Are you making any effort at all to see my point? Do you think "the final king and his government" will literally look like a beast with seven heads and ten horns?

Si said >> ""Take your dispensationalist blinders off""
Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15
Si doesn't comprehend that today ALL are equal, regardless of location, eg Israel or elsewhere

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Si said >> ""Take your dispensationalist blinders off""
Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15
Si doesn't comprehend that today ALL are equal, regardless of location, eg Israel or elsewhere

Where did I say otherwise? I didn't. I have made that same point myself many times. Those scriptures and more make it clear that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ (the church) and God put no different between the Jew and the Gentile. How you thought I was saying otherwise in my post is beyond me. It is dispensationalists who have dispensationalist blinders on who are not able to understand this, not me.

 

[rvmb]

Where did I say otherwise? I didn't. I have made that same point myself many times. Those scriptures and more make it clear that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ (the church) and God put no different between the Jew and the Gentile. How you thought I was saying otherwise in my post is beyond me. It is dispensationalists who have dispensationalist blinders on who are not able to understand this, not me.

You don't believe there are dispensations ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't believe there are dispensations ?

No, not in the way dispensationalists understand that, such as thinking there will be a 7 year future dispensation consisting of believers called "tribulation saints" who are not part of the church and future thousand years earthly kingdom when Jesus is reigning on the earth and nonsense like that. And I certainly completely disagree with the dispensational belief in a pre-trib rapture and how dispensationalists try to divide God's people into multiple groups instead of the "one new man", "one body" and "one fold" that all of God's people are in together because of the blood of Christ.

You said "Si doesn't comprehend that today ALL are equal, regardless of location, eg Israel or elsewhere". What did I say to indicate that I don't comprehend that? Nothing. So, stop misrepresenting what I believe.

 

[rvmb]

No, not in the way dispensationalists understand that, such as thinking there will be a 7 year future dispensation consisting of believers called "tribulation saints" who are not part of the church and future thousand years earthly kingdom when Jesus is reigning on the earth and nonsense like that. And I certainly completely disagree with the dispensational belief in a pre-trib rapture and how dispensationalists try to divide God's people into multiple groups instead of the "one new man", "one body" and "one fold" that all of God's people are in together because of the blood of Christ.

You said "Si doesn't comprehend that today ALL are equal, regardless of location, eg Israel or elsewhere". What did I say to indicate that I don't comprehend that? Nothing. So, stop misrepresenting what I believe.

Si said >> ""No, not in the way dispensationalists understand that,""
But you do accept that currently we are in a dispensation period/age ?
eg today how a believer receives the HS is different to early Acts

 

[dad]

Take your dispensationalist blinders off and understand that the phrase "great tribulation" can be used in different contexts.

Name one verse where it is then? Ha

In Revelation 7 the context is coming out of great tribulation in the form of persecution and other types of tribulation that believers go through.

No, the time is the time of the end and angels pouring wrath etc. No wiggling out of it

Other scripture that refers to "great tribulation" refers to God's wrath. You are failing to differentiate between the two.

There is one unique time called that. Unlike any other time.

Hello? Jesus said the love of MOST will grow cold.

The love of many.

Matthew 24:12
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Where iniquity abounds grace does much more abound.

How does that equate to a great multitude that no one can count becoming saved during a time when the love of most will grow cold?

Many. Not 'most' Many also will not take the mark of the beast. many will be tried and made white even to the time of the end! He separates sheep from goats when He gets here. You seem to imagine it is all old goats

You are throwing logic completely out the window here. You make Jesus's question of whether He will find faith on the earth when He returns (Luke 18:8) into a stupid question that He shouldn't have asked because you think He will find faith from a great multitude on earth that no one can count when He returns.

It is valid. The world will be in the darkest night of history. The devil man will be ruling etc. The world will generally fall away from God and embrace Satan. However, there will be untold millions or billions saved as well.

Are you making any effort at all to see my point? Do you think "the final king and his government" will literally look like a beast with seven heads and ten horns?

His heart will look like the beast he is. All governments of the world are pictured as beasts. Babylon, Greece etc. It states in Daniel that some of these beasts are nations if I recall. Cruel vicious beasts is a great way to describe them. Look at Gaza. What sort of monsters would do that to women and children?

 

[rvmb]

No, not in the way dispensationalists understand that, such as thinking there will be a 7 year future dispensation consisting of believers called "tribulation saints" who are not part of the church and future thousand years earthly kingdom when Jesus is reigning on the earth and nonsense like that. And I certainly completely disagree with the dispensational belief in a pre-trib rapture and how dispensationalists try to divide God's people into multiple groups instead of the "one new man", "one body" and "one fold" that all of God's people are in together because of the blood of Christ.

You said "Si doesn't comprehend that today ALL are equal, regardless of location, eg Israel or elsewhere". What did I say to indicate that I don't comprehend that? Nothing. So, stop misrepresenting what I believe.

Si said >> "tribulation saints"
In a future period/age, can a believer lose their salvation, eg mark of the beast ?
Currently, "body of Christ" Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15, can a believer lose their salvation ?
If so please list where Paul (Romans to Philemon) teaches that.

 

[Trekson]

I agree for the most part. That word 'Judaism' I am not so sure about though. ( some take it to mean the ten commandments etc)

In my mind, I see Judaism as living life according to the law, instead of grace.

 

[dad]

In my mind, I see Judaism as living life according to the law, instead of grace.

Well, that won't be around

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

I think most of us know what time this is referring to. NOT 1948!



Looks like it is talking about beings restored after the captivity. Not the end time



etc etc etc Your spam list is exposed, so if you actually have any verse in the rest of the list that says God restores unbelievers, post it!

Well we have reached an end. If you cannot accept Gods word that He brings them back to their land to purge and punish and have Israel pass under the rod of His judgment, (that means lots of unsaved) then there si nothing I can show to convince you. Have the last word if you wish- we are done.

 

[PinSeeker]

The promises of God are to believers. So I think Israel refers to BELIEVERS, particularly those believers who are the children of Abraham (and those who may have converted in the past etc etc) Not to a secular nation. Thoughts?

A little late to the party, I am, obviously... <smile> I like your OP, dad, but okay, who are the children of Abraham? You might want to remember what Paul says in Romans 9:6-8...

"...it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."​

And this is just a few sentences, really, after he said what he said in Romans 2:28-29...

"...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."​

Yeah, so, who is Israel? Yes, believers, but not just Jewish believers. All who are in Christ... regardless of ethnicity. As Paul says in Galations 3:26-29...:

"...in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."​

So. To what you said before about Paul's statement that all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus just says that all God's promises are true... Well, yes, of course it says that, but so, so much more, most relevantly here that all God's promises are made ~ in the larger sense ~ to all those in Christ Jesus, regardless of ethnicity... or even time, actually, including you and me.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

It says they came of of great tribulation and the context of the chapter is the Tribulation time.

Sure, and all of us will come out of the time of tribulation... successfully. <smile> God will see to that. <smile> As Jesus said to His disciples ~ and by extension to all of us who are in Him, recorded by John in John 16:33 ~ "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." But He has just recently said, in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." And Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ." But yes, all of us will come out of this time of tribulation successfully, and Jesus will return, and then the final Judgment will take place and those on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:41-46) will depart, and then... then, the New Heaven and New Earth...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...you do accept that currently we are in a dispensation period/age ?

A dispensation, RVMB, as it is used in the passages you yourself cited, is a plan, or intention, not a time period. God has one plan, one intention, and that is to unite all things to Him in Christ, to make all things new. Just using Ephesians 1:10 as a case in point, this is the ESV translation: "...a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him." And He will ~ will, RVMB, not "might" ~ bring it to full fruition, in His own time, to His own glory.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

Well we have reached an end. If you cannot accept Gods word that He brings them back to their land to purge and punish and have Israel pass under the rod of His judgment, (that means lots of unsaved) then there si nothing I can show to convince you. Have the last word if you wish- we are done.

Face the facts. That verse said absolutely nothing like you claimed it did. Nor did any other verse people offered here, in fact most of them were spam. Not even touching on the issue of whether God blesses protects and restores nonbelievers to that land! The time of Jacob's trouble is a period of time that is intense and short in the end. That time when God allows people (and Jewish people specifically as well) to go through great great great trouble, death, suffering, etc. Anyone trying to suggest that 1948 was that time should be praying and studying Scripture rather that debating as if they had a clue.

 

[dad]

A little late to the party, I am, obviously... <smile> I like your OP, dad, but okay, who are the children of Abraham?

Firstly, why would we care? Is there a verse that uses that term relating to the remnant getting saved in the end or..?

You might want to remember what Paul says in Romans 9:6-8...

"...it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."​

Right, so the remnant that get saved and restored in the end can be called children of Abraham.

And this is just a few sentences, really, after he said what he said in Romans 2:28-29...

"...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."​

Right, the Jews who get killed rather than saved in the end die as unbelievers. Like Revelation says, some say they are Jews but are not really.

Yeah, so, who is Israel? Yes, believers, but not just Jewish believers. All who are in Christ... regardless of ethnicity. As Paul says in Galations 3:26-29...:

I don't see that it matters for the topic? The only part of Israel that gets restored and saved in the end are the only Israel that will exist. All will be believers. This is why that when some people say He already restored Israel, it is wrong.

"...in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."​

Right, and that saved remnant that finally believe will be in Christ.

So. To what you said before about Paul's statement that all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus just says that all God's promises are true... Well, yes, of course it says that, but so, so much more, most relevantly here that all God's promises are made ~ in the larger sense ~ to all those in Christ Jesus, regardless of ethnicity... or even time, actually, including you and me.

Bingo. He restores believers (the remnant) in the end. In Christ. By Christ. And all His promises of heaven and our New Jerusalem are also true.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

Sure, and all of us will come out of the time of tribulation... successfully. <smile>

Right, though it be without our heads possibly in most cases. (I would point out that the 'we' here will be believers alive on earth in that period)

God will see to that. <smile> As Jesus said to His disciples ~ and by extension to all of us who are in Him, recorded by John in John 16:33 ~ "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." But He has just recently said, in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." And Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ." But yes, all of us will come out of this time of tribulation successfully, and Jesus will return, and then the final Judgment will take place and those on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:41-46) will depart, and then... then, the New Heaven and New Earth...

Grace and peace to you.

Right, for believers, He is coming to take us up in the air. Thankfully we are not appointed to wrath. But even the believers that come to be in that Great Tribulation time will come out of it one way or the other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Si said >> ""No, not in the way dispensationalists understand that,""
But you do accept that currently we are in a dispensation period/age ?
eg today how a believer receives the HS is different to early Acts?

What are you talking about? Are you calling the day of Pentecost its own dispensation period? This is ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't believe there are dispensations ?
View attachment 81663

Is that what I said? No, I didn't. I said not in the way that dispensationalists understand them.