Who is more dangerous? Islam, or Catholicism?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... who is writing the history to agree with a person's interpretation of the said scriptures ...

Here's an account of a FALSE HISTORY and a FALSE interpretation of Scripture:

Regarding Revelation 17 --
“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]

[1] Eiselen, Lewis, & Downey, p. 1392


... and here's another one:

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.

[1] Guthrie & Motyer, p. 699
[2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035


... and if you want some more, all we have to do is go through the Book of Daniel commentators who DEFIED the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9.


So here's another one:

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah,by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.


There's no shortage of liars and their lies. But Scripture and History are TRUE, if you get past the liars.


And if I'm not mistaken, -- YOU have promulgated some false Scriptural and Historical assertions,
Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Here's FALSE account of HISTORY and a FALSE interpretation of Scripture:

Regarding Revelation 17 --
“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]

[1] Eiselen, Lewis, & Downey, p. 1392


... and here's another one:

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]


Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.



[1] Guthrie & Motyer, p. 699

[2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035


... and if you want some more, all we have to do is go through the Book of Daniel commentators who DEFIED the angiel's instructions in 12:4 & 9.


So here's another one:

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah,by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.


There's no shortage of liars and their lies. But Scripture and History are TRUE, if you get past the liars.


And if I'm not mistaken, -- YOU have promulgated some false Scriptural and Historical assertions,
Bobby Jo

First off, you have copied only half of a sentence that I had posted.

I could not agree more with your understanding. The trouble is who is writing the history to agree with a person's interpretation of the said scriptures to hide himself from our view to maintain the delusion of our mind.

Then you quoted passages out of books etc. without properly acknowledging the source of your quotes.

Now if you had actually understood my post then you would have seen that I was making reference to the spiritual influences operating in this world to delude the saints of understanding.

It seems that you then accuse me of promulgating some false scriptural and historical assertions which is the charge that is also true of you.

It seems that your statement, "There's no shortage of liars and their lies. But Scripture and History are TRUE, if you get past the liars.", is very applicable to yourself.
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... you quoted passages out of books etc. without properly acknowledging the source of your quotes.

Did you want my entire bibliography? Are you unable to digest the FACTS without the full source? Did you want some milk with your milk?

... your statement, "There's no shortage of liars and their lies. But Scripture and History are TRUE, if you get past the liars.", is very applicable to yourself.

Throw it. Pick any prophetic aspect of the Book of Daniel and let's find who can FULLY defend their position. Daniel 1? 2? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? 11? -- Roll a pair of dice and we'll use that number for the Chapter.

... And right about now, the other person runs and hides behind his mother's apron ...
Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Did you want my entire bibliography? Are you unable to digest the FACTS without the full source? Did you want some milk with your milk?

Throw it. Pick any prophetic aspect of the Book of Daniel and let's find who can FULLY defend their position. Daniel 1? 2? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? 11? -- Roll a pair of dice and we'll use that number for the Chapter.

... And right about now, the other person runs and hides behind his mother's apron ...
Bobby Jo

Bobby, In Daniel_ 7:2 who or what are the four winds of Heaven?

A discussion on just this verse should prove enlightening.

Shalom
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bobby, In Daniel_ 7:2 who or what are the four winds of Heaven?

A discussion on just this verse should prove enlightening.

Shalom

Throw out your thoughts, and then we'll go from there. But the point was that you or I should discuss that which has been historically fulfilled, -- the sequence of world empires, and events and participants in those empires:

Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.


Did you miss the point of your FALSE Doctrines?
Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Throw out your thoughts, and then we'll go from there. But the point was that you or I should discuss that which has been historically fulfilled, -- the sequence of world empires, and events and participants in those empires:

Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.


Did you miss the point of your FALSE Doctrines?
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo this is the starting point as it will then lead into your desire to discuss, "that which has been Historically fulfilled."

If you do not understand the question or the answer to the question, then I am happy for you to run away with your tail between your legs.

If you want to continue into the discussion as to what has been historically fulfilled, we really have to start at the beginning of the prophecy and verse 2 is where the prophecy starts and come to an agreed understanding as to what is causing the "beasts" to rise up out of the sea of people.

If our basis for the discussion is not on a firm foundation, then any further discussion will only be waffle on your part.

Shalom
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... verse 2 is where the prophecy starts and come to an agreed understanding as to what is causing the "beasts" to rise up out of the sea of people. ..l.

So throw it out and we'll see if we both agree! But I ain't runnin' from nothin. If you got something to say, then say it, or if you got don't, then find your mother's apron.

I ain't no mind reader,
Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So throw it out and we'll see if we both agree! But I ain't runnin' from nothin. If you got something to say, then say it, or if you got don't, then find your mother's apron.

I ain't no mind reader,
Bobby Jo
Booby Jo, it was you who wanted to have a discussion, and so I gave you a point from which the discussion could start. But, if you do not know the answer to my question, then I am happy to file your posts in the WPB where they presumably belong since you refuse to provide your wisdom and understanding to the question that I have asked.

Because of your taunts, it is really up to you to lead the way in the conducting of a meaningful discussion between us.

Shalom
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Booby Jo, it was you who wanted to have a discussion, and so I gave you a point from which the discussion could start. ...

So start it. I'm waiting.

Why do people play such games?!?
-- Yeah I know the answer, but it would be "impolite" to tell that TRUTH.
Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So start it. I'm waiting.

Why do people play such games?!?
-- Yeah I know the answer, but it would be "impolite" to tell that TRUTH.
Bobby Jo

Booby Jo it seems to me that you are scared to start putting down what it is that you do not know and omit that your debating tactics is to put everyone else down with your personal attacks like you have done in the previous post.

You were the one who wanted this interaction with someone else to prove your theory was right. Without you defining what it is that your believe Daniel_7:2 is all about, then I am afraid that there is no point considering any further discussion on the topic of your choice. As I have already presented my understanding of who or what the four winds of heaven are in other threads, I just though it was appropriate for you to present your thoughts before we go any further down your rabbit hole.

Shalom
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... I am afraid that there is no point considering any further discussion on the topic of your choice. ...

I didn't choose Daniel 7:2. You did. And now you run away to hide behind your mommy's apron, -- exactly as I predicted.

So run like a little coward.


To All ,
I have NO IDEA what @Jay Ross intends to present, argue, discuss, defend, or attack regarding the Second Verse of Daniel Chapter 7. If ANYONE has a clue what his or her point is, PLEASE help @Jay Ross provide a presentation so that I can either Agree, Disagree, Clarify, or Refute.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I didn't choose Daniel 7:2. You did. And now you run away to hide behind your mommy's apron, -- exactly as I predicted.

So run like a little coward.


To All ,
I have NO IDEA what @Jay Ross intends to present, argue, discuss, defend, or attack regarding the Second Verse of Daniel Chapter 7. If ANYONE has a clue what his or her point is, PLEASE help @Jay Ross provide a presentation so that I can either Agree, Disagree, Clarify, or Refute.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

To all, I have no idea how Booby Jo has got to his understanding of Daniel 7, if he cannot tell everybody his understanding of Daniel_7:2. He/she is avoiding providing the answer to what should be for him/she a very simple exercise for that verse. If he cannot provide his understanding to this one verse, then what is the point of any discussion with him

He/she reminds me of other posters on a number of forums that I have tangled with on other forums and those posters were not very nice people either. They chose to bully other posters into submission rather than responding to simple questions with their POV on the question asked. They twist the truth to support their POV's.

All that has happened is that there is nothing to respond to that Booby Jo has presented. It is as if he is regurgitating something that he has read else where, without understanding the error in the material that he is quoting. His only way of providing he is right is to bully any brave soul who takes the time to respond to his posts.
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t see Catholicism blowing people up and setting them on fire or decapitating people, because others are deemed infidels.
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,342
17,178
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I don’t see Catholicism blowing people up and setting them on fire or decapitating people, because others are deemed infidels.
No they don't, but I think they are still dangerous because people can't see the damage they are doing by not preaching the true gospel. People are being deceived by a different gospel which teaches them to pray to saints and to Mary and about purgatory etc when there is no mention of these practices in the bible.

People need to hear that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled with God. Nothing else, just Jesus.
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No they don't, but I think they are still dangerous because people can't see the damage they are doing by not preaching the true gospel. People are being deceived by a different gospel which teaches them to pray to saints and to Mary and about purgatory etc when there is no mention of these practices in the bible.

People need to hear that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled with God. Nothing else, just Jesus.
Pearl you are right, I use to pray to Mary, after I would pray to Jesus.

I just started seeing things for what they were and like I stated on a thread on here, I went back to my childhood church where I did my communion, and something just didn’t feel right Pearl.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Quote @Jay Ross :
In Daniel_ 7:2 who or what are the four winds of Heaven?

Quote Bobby Jo:
I have NO IDEA what @Jay Ross intends to present, argue, discuss, defend, or attack regarding the Second Verse of Daniel Chapter 7. If ANYONE has a clue what his or her point is, PLEASE help @Jay Ross provide a presentation so that I can either Agree, Disagree, Clarify, or Refute.

Quote @Jay Ross :To all, ... [/QUOTE]

Go play your games by yourself.



To All,
There are two instances in the Book of Daniel where the "four winds of heaven" are cited. One is in Daniel 7, and the other in Daniel 11. The Daniel 11 citation is in reference to a clearly defined end-time circumstance, and so too that inference is associated with the Daniel 7 verse.

Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia

Quote @Jay Ross :
In Daniel_ 7:2 who or what are the four winds of Heaven?

Quote Bobby Jo:
I have NO IDEA what @Jay Ross intends to present, argue, discuss, defend, or attack regarding the Second Verse of Daniel Chapter 7. If ANYONE has a clue what his or her point is, PLEASE help @Jay Ross provide a presentation so that I can either Agree, Disagree, Clarify, or Refute.

Quote @Jay Ross :To all, ... [/QUOTE]

Quote Bobby Jo:
Go play your games by yourself.



To All,
There are two instances in the Book of Daniel where the "four winds of heaven" are cited. One is in Daniel 7, and the other in Daniel 11. The Daniel 11 citation is in reference to a clearly defined end-time circumstance, and so too that inference is associated with the Daniel 7 verse.

Bobby Jo[/quote]

End of quoting Booby Jo's post above.

First off, it seems that you Booby Jo is the only person allowed to play the same game as you and when others play the same game as you and call your bluff, you react in a very predictable manner. It is not pretty.

With that beginning gotten off of my chest so to speak, first, let us, hopefully, now focus on the actual meat of your post where you stated the following: -

There are two instances in the Book of Daniel where the "four winds of heaven" are cited. One is in Daniel 7, and the other in Daniel 11. The Daniel 11 citation is in reference to a clearly defined end-time circumstance, and so too that inference is associated with the Daniel 7 verse.​

Now your statement is correct if a person does a word search of the KJV, but other translations suggest that this phraseology is found in the following translations as tabulated below: -

0 times in the NLT, Darby Bible
1 time in the NET
2 times in the KJV, NASU, The message, CJB
3 times in
4 times in the RSV, ESV, NKJV, NIV

So the basis of an English Word search of our favourite translation is not the simple peg that we can hang our hat on and be confident that it will hold the hat up. However, it is a reasonable place to start our research from.

Now the RSV, ESV, NKJV and the NIV translations provides the following verses: -
Daniel_7:2: - Daniel said, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.

Daniel_ 8:8: - Then the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly; but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.


Daniel_ 11:4: - And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not to his posterity, nor according to the dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be plucked up and go to others besides these.


Zechariah_ 6:5: - And the angel answered me, "These are going forth to the four winds of heaven, after presenting themselves before the Lord of all the earth.

Now further evidence is needed to be considered to see if the above translations of the four verses are justified. We need to look at the source texts to see if we justify the above four verses before we start to consider who or what the expression of "the four winds of heaven" means.

With respect to the KJV translation of Daniel_7:2 it is fairly close. The KJV translates this verse this way: -

Daniel_7:2: - Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.​

It could be argued that in essence, it is saying the same thing.

I will consider what opitions I have to further/confirm my understanding of the above four verses.

Until then Shalom
 
Last edited:

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... I will consider what opitions I have to further/confirm my understanding of the above four verses. ...

Three verses in the Book of Daniel, which is the requisite Book:

Quote Bobby Jo:
Pick any prophetic aspect of the Book of Daniel and let's find who can FULLY defend their position.


... and my mistake on not citing Daniel 8.

And by the way, thanks for standing up like a man. Most posters run like little girls when challenged with delving into the TRUTH of Scripture. So GOOD JOB! :)

Bobby Jo


To All,
As previously cited, the most obvious context for the "four winds of heaven" is in Chapter 11. The Chapter 7 & Chapter 8 contexts are more inferences rather than a concise historical event. So understanding this passage is BEST achieved if using the 11:4 fulfillment. But that prospect is made more difficult by the "commentators" who defied the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9, and ascribed "fulfillments" to 200BC instead of the era approximate to the 1900's.

Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Three verses in the Book of Daniel, which is the requisite Book:

Quote Bobby Jo:
Pick any prophetic aspect of the Book of Daniel and let's find who can FULLY defend their position.


... and my mistake on not citing Daniel 8.

And by the way, thanks for standing up like a man. Most posters run like little girls when challenged with delving into the TRUTH of Scripture. So GOOD JOB! :)

Bobby Jo


To All,
As previously cited, the most obvious context for the "four winds of heaven" is in Chapter 11. The Chapter 7 & Chapter 8 contexts are more inferences rather than a concise historical event. So understanding this passage is BEST achieved if using the 11:4 fulfillment. But that prospect is made more difficult by the "commentators" who defied the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9, and ascribed "fulfillments" to 200BC instead of the era approximate to the 1900's.

Bobby Jo

Booby Jo it sounds like you are still trying to push your own wheelbarrow of your "truth understanding" and wanting to go to the "historical fulfilments" before confirming the understanding of Daniel_7:2 that we should have in considering the rest of the Chapter.

For me you are putting the cart before the horse still, as it is to early to be looking at perceived historical confirmations.

Shalom

PS: - still working on how I should move forward in this discussion.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Quote Bobby Jo:
Pick any prophetic aspect of the Book of Daniel and let's find who can FULLY defend their position.

Sorry Booby Jo, but this has just pooped out from your post above and I will provide a point of clarification. I have picked a particular prophetic aspect of the Book of Daniel in line with what you quoted above, and that is Daniel_7:2. It seems that this verse is not what you want to find the truth about and then defend.

Shalom