Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

I agree that lawlessness, in the broadest sense, began in Eden. Sin entered the world through rebellion against God. But I do not think that is what Paul is specifically identifying in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Paul is not giving a general theology of sin from Genesis to Revelation. He is answering a specific question about the timing of the day of the Lord. The Thessalonians were troubled, and Paul says that day cannot come until certain identifiable events occur first.

That means Paul’s “mystery of lawlessness” is more specific than the general fact that all people sin. He says this mystery was already at work in his day, was being restrained at that time, would later be revealed in the lawless one, and would finally be destroyed by Christ at His coming.

If lawlessness here simply means all sin from Eden onward, then Paul’s sequence becomes difficult to follow. What does it mean that the Fall is restraining lawlessness? How is the Fall later taken out of the way? And how would that explain Paul saying the Thessalonians already knew what was restraining?

Paul’s language points to something more specific: a hidden lawless principle already operating in the first century, restrained from full manifestation, later revealed in a definable power, and continuing until Christ destroys it.

So while Eden explains the origin of sin generally, it does not identify the particular prophetic lawlessness Paul is describing in 2 Thessalonians 2.

When Paul described all unsaved men as being "the natural man", he was speaking of everyone who is born of flesh only, but are not born again by the Holy Spirit.
I perceive and believe that we must steer away from interpreting the words: "that man of sin", as being understood only in the singular, but rather to be in the plural. Therefore, ALL the unsaved are lawless, and are collectively "that man of sin".

Another case for viewing the words "that man of sin" should be in the plural, is to understand that Judas Iscariot was not the ONLY "son of perdition", as Jesus did call him to be so. However, we do see that the Holy Spirit called another to also be "the son of perdition". 2 Thes. 2:3.
Scripturally, since there appears to be more than one "son of perdition" that are being revealed, we can safely conclude that the words: "that man of sin" is pointing it out that ALL unsaved people are "that man of sin, the son of perdition".

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [from faith] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[CTK]

When Paul described all unsaved men as being "the natural man", he was speaking of everyone who is born of flesh only, but are not born again by the Holy Spirit.
I perceive and believe that we must steer away from interpreting the words "that man of sin" as being understood only in the singular, but rather to be in the plural. Therefore ALL the unsaved are lawless, and are collectively "that man of sin".

Another case for viewing the words "that man of sin" should be in the plural, is to understand that Judas Iscariot was not the ONLY "son of perdition", as Jesus did call him to be. However, we do see that the Holy Spirit called another to also be "the son of perdition".
Scripturally, since there appears to be more than one "son of perdition" that are being revealed, we can safely conclude that the words: "that man of sin" is pointing it out that ALL unsaved people are "that man of sin, the son of perdition".

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [from faith] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The phrase “son of perdition” can describe someone marked for destruction, but the surrounding context determines who is being identified. Judas was one historical traitor. The “man of sin” is a prophetic lawless power/personage revealed after the falling away. The shared phrase does not make them identical, nor does it make the phrase universal for all unbelievers.

Paul says this “man of sin”:

• is revealed after the falling away,
• opposes and exalts himself,
• sits in the temple of God,
• presents himself as having divine status,
• is connected to the mystery of lawlessness already working,
• continues until destroyed by Christ’s coming.

These do not represent a description of every unbeliever collectively. Unbelievers already existed in Paul’s day. So if “man of sin” means all unsaved people, then there was nothing future to be revealed.

Everything above and related to this “prophetic” (therefore, he comes after Daniel’s time and could not include those before him), must take place AFTER THE CROSS, AFTER JESUS SETS UP HIS EARTHLY KINGDOM, ARRIVES (comes out) FROM THE FOURTH KINGDOM, COMES TO FULL POWER AFTER THE RESTRAINER (pagan Rome) IS REMOVED, AND CONTINUES UNTIL THE END. One can read the characteristics of this little horn in Daniel 7, 8, 11, and in Revelation.

God has given us this detailed algorithm that allows us to identify THE ONLY ONE LAWLESS ONE DURING our history - NOT AT THE END OF OUR HISTORY.

 

[Earburner]

The phrase “son of perdition” can describe someone marked for destruction, but the surrounding context determines who is being identified. Judas was one historical traitor. The “man of sin” is a prophetic lawless power/personage revealed after the falling away. The shared phrase does not make them identical, nor does it make the phrase universal for all unbelievers.

Paul says this “man of sin”:

• is revealed after the falling away,
• opposes and exalts himself,
• sits in the temple of God,
• presents himself as having divine status,
• is connected to the mystery of lawlessness already working,
• continues until destroyed by Christ’s coming.

These do not represent a description of every unbeliever collectively. Unbelievers already existed in Paul’s day. So if “man of sin” means all unsaved people, then there was nothing future to be revealed.

Everything above and related to this “prophetic” (therefore, he comes after Daniel’s time and could not include those before him), must take place AFTER THE CROSS, AFTER JESUS SETS UP HIS EARTHLY KINGDOM, ARRIVES (comes out) FROM THE FOURTH KINGDOM, COMES TO FULL POWER AFTER THE RESTRAINER (pagan Rome) IS REMOVED, AND CONTINUES UNTIL THE END. One can read the characteristics of this little horn in Daniel 7, 8, 11, and in Revelation.

God has given us this detailed algorithm that allows us to identify THE ONLY ONE LAWLESS ONE DURING our history - NOT AT THE END OF OUR HISTORY.

I suppose, for more clarity in interpretation, of whether "that man of sin, the son of perdition" will be in the singular or plural, it's necessary that we fully understand when and how there shall be a falling away....and from what?
I perceive that the implementation of the mark of the Beast will be the main driver and cause of apostasy (from faith in Jesus) on a global scale.

Edit:
We have NOW entered into the 6th angel, Rev. 9:13-21.
The Mark of the beast will be implemented soon after the event of 1/3 of men are killed off in ONE day..
The key scripture to note is that during that time No more people repented (none). Rev. 9:21. All became LAWLESS, ...unwilling to repent towards God.
No more repentance by anyone means that the Holy Spirit (the restrainer) will have no reason any longer to convict men of sin, or to contend with them to have faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Earburner]

From your post #402:
"Paul says this “man of sin”:

is revealed after the falling away,
opposes and exalts himself,
sits in the temple of God,
presents himself as having divine status,
is connected to the mystery of lawlessness already working,
continues until destroyed by Christ’s coming."

> So why can't all the above be applied to the many unsaved, as being in the plural?
Did you know that every unsaved person's mortal body, while alive, is the potential temple of God?
2 Cor. 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The unsaved sit in the temple of God, unaware that their bodies/temples are void of God 100%.

 

[CTK]

From your post #402:
"Paul says this “man of sin”:

is revealed after the falling away,
opposes and exalts himself,
sits in the temple of God,
presents himself as having divine status,
is connected to the mystery of lawlessness already working,
continues until destroyed by Christ’s coming."

> So why can't all the above be applied to the many unsaved, as being in the plural?
Did you know that every unsaved person's mortal body, while alive, is the potential temple of God?
2 Cor. 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The unsaved sit in the temple of God, unaware that their bodies/temples are void of God 100%.

I would respectfully request that you might return to the initial post #1 that provides markers under both A and B. Also, I believe these questions above have been addressed in detail. Please take a look at some of the responses within this 20 page topic. Again, I attempted to identify all the markers in the first post that you can use to help identify this individual... you can apply each of them to your personal interpretation to see if it meets every one of them.... thanks.

 

[PeterAndroz]

The phrase “son of perdition” can describe someone marked for destruction, but the surrounding context determines who is being identified. Judas was one historical traitor. The “man of sin” is a prophetic lawless power/personage revealed after the falling away. The shared phrase does not make them identical, nor does it make the phrase universal for all unbelievers.

Paul says this “man of sin”:

• is revealed after the falling away,
• opposes and exalts himself,
• sits in the temple of God,
• presents himself as having divine status,
• is connected to the mystery of lawlessness already working,
• continues until destroyed by Christ’s coming.

These do not represent a description of every unbeliever collectively. Unbelievers already existed in Paul’s day. So if “man of sin” means all unsaved people, then there was nothing future to be revealed.

Everything above and related to this “prophetic” (therefore, he comes after Daniel’s time and could not include those before him), must take place AFTER THE CROSS, AFTER JESUS SETS UP HIS EARTHLY KINGDOM, ARRIVES (comes out) FROM THE FOURTH KINGDOM, COMES TO FULL POWER AFTER THE RESTRAINER (pagan Rome) IS REMOVED, AND CONTINUES UNTIL THE END. One can read the characteristics of this little horn in Daniel 7, 8, 11, and in Revelation.

God has given us this detailed algorithm that allows us to identify THE ONLY ONE LAWLESS ONE DURING our history - NOT AT THE END OF OUR HISTORY.

Do you believe there will be Eph 4:30(sealed believers) in the 2 Thess 2:3 period ?

 

[CTK]

Do you believe there will be Eph 4:30(sealed believers) in the 2 Thess 2:3 period ?

Here is part of a narrative found within my commentary on the Book of Daniel. I believe it speaks to this issue, and hope it might bring some thought to this topic - thanks.


Paul asks, “Has God rejected His people?” and answers, “Certainly not.” I agree completely. God has not rejected Israel. His promises have not failed. His calling has not been erased. The Jewish people are not discarded by God.

But we must let Paul finish his own argument.

In Romans 11, Paul does not say every ethnic Israelite is automatically saved. He does not say unbelieving Israel remains in covenant blessing apart from Messiah. He does not say a future political state is automatically the chosen nation of God regardless of faith. Paul’s explanation is the remnant. He says, “At this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5). That means God has preserved believing Israel. Paul himself was proof of that, which is why he immediately says, “For I also am an Israelite.”

So no, God has not rejected Israel. But Paul also says Israel experienced a partial hardening. Some branches were broken off because of unbelief, and Gentiles were grafted in by faith. That means covenant standing is not based on ethnicity alone, nor on political nationality, but on faith in the Messiah. This is why Paul warns Gentile believers not to boast against the natural branches. The church has not replaced Israel in a proud, arrogant way. Gentiles are grafted into Israel’s covenant promises through Christ. There is one olive tree, not two separate ways of salvation.

At the same time, Paul also says the broken natural branches can be grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief. That is the hope of Romans 11. Israel is not finally rejected. God will yet show mercy. Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and then God will turn again to His people.

So the issue is not whether God still loves Israel. He does. The issue is whether modern Israel, as a political nation, is automatically God’s chosen covenant people while rejecting Jesus Christ. Paul does not teach that. The apostles do not teach that. Jesus Himself said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

There is no salvation outside Christ — not for Gentiles, not for Jews, not for anyone.

So Israel has not been rejected. Israel has been partially hardened, exactly as Paul says. I believe God still has a covenant purpose for Israel. I believe Jewish people remain beloved for the sake of the fathers. I believe God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable. But I also believe that Israel’s restoration must come through Messiah, not around Him. That is not replacement theology. That is Romans 11.

And this is where Daniel, Romans, and Revelation come together.

Paul says blindness in part has happened to Israel “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25). That means Israel’s present blindness is not permanent. It has a boundary. It has an “until.” When the times of the Gentiles have reached their appointed completion, God will again turn His covenant attention toward His people. And we are not far from that time.

This is also connected to the 144,000 in Revelation. The 144,000 do not represent a random literal number, nor as a replacement of Israel by Gentiles, but a prophetic symbol of restored Israel — twelve times twelve times one thousand — the fullness of God’s covenant people awakened, sealed, and prepared for final witness. In that sense, the 144,000 represent Israel brought back to the Messiah, not by political power, not by national pride, and not by human achievement, but by the mercy and intervention of God.

Paul himself becomes the pattern. He was an Israelite. He was zealous for God, yet blind to the Messiah. He persecuted the followers of Jesus, believing he was serving God. But on the road to Damascus, Christ revealed Himself to Paul, and the blindness was removed. From that moment, Paul became one of the greatest witnesses to the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Something similar will happen corporately for Israel at the end - in is connected in Daniel, Paul's writings and Revelation.

When the times of the Gentiles are complete, God will remove the blindness from His people. He will give them, in effect, a Damascus experience. They will see the One whom they pierced. They will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Their mourning will turn into witness. Their former blindness will become burning testimony. This also fits Daniel’s prophetic structure. The seventy weeks were fulfilled by Messiah. He accomplished the work of Daniel 9:24. He confirmed the covenant, brought sacrifice and offering to their true fulfillment, and opened salvation to the world. But Israel, as a people, did not complete its covenant response to Him at that time. The gospel then went out to the Gentiles, and the long period of Gentile witness and Gentile dominance began.

But that period does not last forever.

Revelation shows a final witness. It speaks of those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It speaks of a sealed people. It speaks of a final proclamation before the end. It speaks of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus standing before the world. That is the connection to the restored 144,000 with the final 3.5 years of witness. This is not a second way of salvation. It is not Israel saved apart from Christ. It is Israel finally awakened to Christ, sealed by God, and sent out to proclaim the very Messiah they once rejected.

For those final 3.5 years, they will go into the world preaching the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Just as Paul, after his Damascus experience, became a witness to the Gentiles, restored Israel will become a final witness to the world. Their message will not be Judaism without Christ. It will be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob revealed fully in His Messiah, Jesus. Can you possibly imagine how today's Christianity will receive this? The world will hear just how corrupt the Word of God and the Testimony of jesus has become since the time of the apostles. This will not be a quiet and save time - it will indeed be the tribulation.

So when I say modern Israel is not automatically God’s chosen covenant nation apart from Christ, I am not saying God is finished with Israel. I am saying the opposite. God is not finished with Israel. But His purpose for Israel is not fulfilled in unbelief. It is fulfilled when Israel comes to Messiah.

Romans says they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. Daniel shows God’s covenant timetable. Revelation shows a sealed people bearing final witness. Together, they point to the same truth: Israel’s restoration comes through Jesus Christ.

So Israel has not been rejected.

Israel has been partially blinded.

Israel has been preserved.

Israel will be shown mercy.

Israel will be grafted in again.

And when God removes that blindness, the very people so long separated from their Messiah will become a final witness to the world that Jesus is Lord, the Lamb of God, the Son of David, and the promised Messiah of Israel.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Here is part of a narrative found within my commentary on the Book of Daniel. I believe it speaks to this issue, and hope it might bring some thought to this topic - thanks.


Paul asks, “Has God rejected His people?” and answers, “Certainly not.” I agree completely. God has not rejected Israel. His promises have not failed. His calling has not been erased. The Jewish people are not discarded by God.

But we must let Paul finish his own argument.

In Romans 11, Paul does not say every ethnic Israelite is automatically saved. He does not say unbelieving Israel remains in covenant blessing apart from Messiah. He does not say a future political state is automatically the chosen nation of God regardless of faith. Paul’s explanation is the remnant. He says, “At this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5). That means God has preserved believing Israel. Paul himself was proof of that, which is why he immediately says, “For I also am an Israelite.”

So no, God has not rejected Israel. But Paul also says Israel experienced a partial hardening. Some branches were broken off because of unbelief, and Gentiles were grafted in by faith. That means covenant standing is not based on ethnicity alone, nor on political nationality, but on faith in the Messiah. This is why Paul warns Gentile believers not to boast against the natural branches. The church has not replaced Israel in a proud, arrogant way. Gentiles are grafted into Israel’s covenant promises through Christ. There is one olive tree, not two separate ways of salvation.

At the same time, Paul also says the broken natural branches can be grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief. That is the hope of Romans 11. Israel is not finally rejected. God will yet show mercy. Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and then God will turn again to His people.

So the issue is not whether God still loves Israel. He does. The issue is whether modern Israel, as a political nation, is automatically God’s chosen covenant people while rejecting Jesus Christ. Paul does not teach that. The apostles do not teach that. Jesus Himself said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

There is no salvation outside Christ — not for Gentiles, not for Jews, not for anyone.

So Israel has not been rejected. Israel has been partially hardened, exactly as Paul says. I believe God still has a covenant purpose for Israel. I believe Jewish people remain beloved for the sake of the fathers. I believe God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable. But I also believe that Israel’s restoration must come through Messiah, not around Him. That is not replacement theology. That is Romans 11.

And this is where Daniel, Romans, and Revelation come together.

Paul says blindness in part has happened to Israel “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25). That means Israel’s present blindness is not permanent. It has a boundary. It has an “until.” When the times of the Gentiles have reached their appointed completion, God will again turn His covenant attention toward His people. And we are not far from that time.

This is also connected to the 144,000 in Revelation. The 144,000 do not represent a random literal number, nor as a replacement of Israel by Gentiles, but a prophetic symbol of restored Israel — twelve times twelve times one thousand — the fullness of God’s covenant people awakened, sealed, and prepared for final witness. In that sense, the 144,000 represent Israel brought back to the Messiah, not by political power, not by national pride, and not by human achievement, but by the mercy and intervention of God.

Paul himself becomes the pattern. He was an Israelite. He was zealous for God, yet blind to the Messiah. He persecuted the followers of Jesus, believing he was serving God. But on the road to Damascus, Christ revealed Himself to Paul, and the blindness was removed. From that moment, Paul became one of the greatest witnesses to the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Something similar will happen corporately for Israel at the end - in is connected in Daniel, Paul's writings and Revelation.

When the times of the Gentiles are complete, God will remove the blindness from His people. He will give them, in effect, a Damascus experience. They will see the One whom they pierced. They will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Their mourning will turn into witness. Their former blindness will become burning testimony. This also fits Daniel’s prophetic structure. The seventy weeks were fulfilled by Messiah. He accomplished the work of Daniel 9:24. He confirmed the covenant, brought sacrifice and offering to their true fulfillment, and opened salvation to the world. But Israel, as a people, did not complete its covenant response to Him at that time. The gospel then went out to the Gentiles, and the long period of Gentile witness and Gentile dominance began.

But that period does not last forever.

Revelation shows a final witness. It speaks of those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It speaks of a sealed people. It speaks of a final proclamation before the end. It speaks of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus standing before the world. That is the connection to the restored 144,000 with the final 3.5 years of witness. This is not a second way of salvation. It is not Israel saved apart from Christ. It is Israel finally awakened to Christ, sealed by God, and sent out to proclaim the very Messiah they once rejected.

For those final 3.5 years, they will go into the world preaching the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Just as Paul, after his Damascus experience, became a witness to the Gentiles, restored Israel will become a final witness to the world. Their message will not be Judaism without Christ. It will be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob revealed fully in His Messiah, Jesus. Can you possibly imagine how today's Christianity will receive this? The world will hear just how corrupt the Word of God and the Testimony of jesus has become since the time of the apostles. This will not be a quiet and save time - it will indeed be the tribulation.

So when I say modern Israel is not automatically God’s chosen covenant nation apart from Christ, I am not saying God is finished with Israel. I am saying the opposite. God is not finished with Israel. But His purpose for Israel is not fulfilled in unbelief. It is fulfilled when Israel comes to Messiah.

Romans says they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. Daniel shows God’s covenant timetable. Revelation shows a sealed people bearing final witness. Together, they point to the same truth: Israel’s restoration comes through Jesus Christ.

So Israel has not been rejected.

Israel has been partially blinded.

Israel has been preserved.

Israel will be shown mercy.

Israel will be grafted in again.

And when God removes that blindness, the very people so long separated from their Messiah will become a final witness to the world that Jesus is Lord, the Lamb of God, the Son of David, and the promised Messiah of Israel.

Hey CT there are a lot of valid points in what you write yet regarding Paul where do you believe Daniel or any of the OT even the Gospels speak of the "mystery" that Christ revealed to Paul ?

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

Conclusion
The risen, ascended, glorified Lord revealed a vast amount of new information to Paul. Paul referred to these revelations as “secrets.” God had revealed none of these things to the prophets. Jesus had not revealed these truths in His earthly ministry or to the Twelve. From Paul alone do we learn the truths of Christianity: about Christ’s work of our salvation, our sanctification, our rescue from a Christ-rejecting world, and our destiny. Holding to Pauline truths has always been a hard-fought battle.............................................

 

[CTK]

Hey CT there are a lot of valid points in what you write yet regarding Paul where do you believe Daniel or any of the OT even the Gospels speak of the "mystery" that Christ revealed to Paul ?

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

Conclusion
The risen, ascended, glorified Lord revealed a vast amount of new information to Paul. Paul referred to these revelations as “secrets.” God had revealed none of these things to the prophets. Jesus had not revealed these truths in His earthly ministry or to the Twelve. From Paul alone do we learn the truths of Christianity: about Christ’s work of our salvation, our sanctification, our rescue from a Christ-rejecting world, and our destiny. Holding to Pauline truths has always been a hard-fought battle.............................................

Great question Peter.....When Paul speaks of the “mystery” revealed to him, I do not understand him to mean that the Old Testament said nothing about it at all. Rather, the mystery was present in seed form, shadow, promise, and prophecy — but it was not fully revealed in its completed form until after Christ.

Paul defines the mystery very clearly in Ephesians 3:6:

“That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.”

So the mystery is not simply that Gentiles would be blessed. The Old Testament already said that. The mystery is that Gentiles would become fellow heirs in the same body, through Christ, without becoming Jews under the old covenant system.

That was the part not fully understood before.

The Old Testament certainly pointed toward it. God told Abraham, “In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). Isaiah said the Servant would be “a light to the Gentiles” (Isaiah 49:6). Isaiah also spoke of foreigners joining themselves to the Lord (Isaiah 56:6–7). Daniel saw a kingdom given to the Son of Man in which “all peoples, nations, and languages” would serve Him (Daniel 7:14). Daniel 2 shows the Stone becoming a mountain that fills the whole earth.

So the Gentile inclusion was not invented by Paul. It was always in God’s plan.

The Gospels also point to it. Jesus said many would come from east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom (Matthew 8:11). He spoke of “other sheep” not of that fold who would become one flock under one Shepherd (John 10:16). After the resurrection, He commanded that repentance and remission of sins be preached in His name to all nations (Luke 24:47). And in the Great Commission, He sent the apostles to make disciples of all nations.

So the mystery was not a contradiction of Daniel, the prophets, or the Gospels. It was the fuller revelation of what those Scriptures had already been pointing toward. Paul himself says this in Romans 16:25–26. He says the mystery was “kept secret since the world began,” but is “now made manifest,” and “by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations.” That is the balance. It was hidden, yet it was also contained in the prophetic Scriptures. The mystery was hidden in the sense that its full form was not yet revealed. But it was not hidden in the sense that it had no Old Testament foundation.

Daniel, Isaiah, Genesis, the Psalms, and the Gospels all anticipated the nations coming under Messiah. What Paul was given to explain more fully was how that would happen: Jew and Gentile joined together in Christ, in one body, through one gospel, by one Spirit, without the Gentiles being placed under the old covenant national structure of Israel. So yes, Paul received special revelation from Christ. But that revelation did not create a new religion or contradict the prophets. It unveiled the mystery that had been in God’s plan from the beginning.


FYI, if you or any other would like to receive a free copy of my commentary on the Book of Daniel please send me a private message with a mailing address. This is NOT another commentary on Daniel - this truly unpacks the 12 chapters, and obviously, will include supporting narratives like the one above. Daniel must connect with the Tanakh and the NT writings. Thanks.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Great question Peter.....When Paul speaks of the “mystery” revealed to him, I do not understand him to mean that the Old Testament said nothing about it at all. Rather, the mystery was present in seed form, shadow, promise, and prophecy — but it was not fully revealed in its completed form until after Christ.

Paul defines the mystery very clearly in Ephesians 3:6:

“That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.”

So the mystery is not simply that Gentiles would be blessed. The Old Testament already said that. The mystery is that Gentiles would become fellow heirs in the same body, through Christ, without becoming Jews under the old covenant system.

That was the part not fully understood before.

The Old Testament certainly pointed toward it. God told Abraham, “In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). Isaiah said the Servant would be “a light to the Gentiles” (Isaiah 49:6). Isaiah also spoke of foreigners joining themselves to the Lord (Isaiah 56:6–7). Daniel saw a kingdom given to the Son of Man in which “all peoples, nations, and languages” would serve Him (Daniel 7:14). Daniel 2 shows the Stone becoming a mountain that fills the whole earth.

So the Gentile inclusion was not invented by Paul. It was always in God’s plan.

The Gospels also point to it. Jesus said many would come from east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom (Matthew 8:11). He spoke of “other sheep” not of that fold who would become one flock under one Shepherd (John 10:16). After the resurrection, He commanded that repentance and remission of sins be preached in His name to all nations (Luke 24:47). And in the Great Commission, He sent the apostles to make disciples of all nations.

So the mystery was not a contradiction of Daniel, the prophets, or the Gospels. It was the fuller revelation of what those Scriptures had already been pointing toward. Paul himself says this in Romans 16:25–26. He says the mystery was “kept secret since the world began,” but is “now made manifest,” and “by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations.” That is the balance. It was hidden, yet it was also contained in the prophetic Scriptures. The mystery was hidden in the sense that its full form was not yet revealed. But it was not hidden in the sense that it had no Old Testament foundation.

Daniel, Isaiah, Genesis, the Psalms, and the Gospels all anticipated the nations coming under Messiah. What Paul was given to explain more fully was how that would happen: Jew and Gentile joined together in Christ, in one body, through one gospel, by one Spirit, without the Gentiles being placed under the old covenant national structure of Israel. So yes, Paul received special revelation from Christ. But that revelation did not create a new religion or contradict the prophets. It unveiled the mystery that had been in God’s plan from the beginning.


FYI, if you or any other would like to receive a free copy of my commentary on the Book of Daniel please send me a private message with a mailing address. This is NOT another commentary on Daniel - this truly unpacks the 12 chapters, and obviously, will include supporting narratives like the one above. Daniel must connect with the Tanakh and the NT writings. Thanks.

""""So the Gentile inclusion was not invented by Paul. It was always in God’s plan.
What do you understand was kept secret since the world began, revealed to Paul, not the OT prophets and not the 12 until Eph 3:5
....
Rom 16:25 :-
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Eph 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

 

[CTK]

""""So the Gentile inclusion was not invented by Paul. It was always in God’s plan.
What do you understand was kept secret since the world began, revealed to Paul, not the OT prophets and not the 12 until Eph 3:5
....
Rom 16:25 :-
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Eph 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

I understand what you are suggesting, but I do not believe Paul is teaching a mystery disconnected from Daniel, the prophets, or the words of Christ. Paul does say the mystery was kept secret and made known to him by revelation. But Paul also says in Romans 16:26 that this same mystery is now made manifest “by the prophetic Scriptures.” That means the mystery cannot be something completely unrelated to the Old Testament. It was hidden there, but not fully unveiled until after Christ.

The key is to let Paul define the mystery. In Ephesians 3:6, Paul says the mystery is “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.”

So the mystery was not simply that Gentiles would be blessed. The Old Testament already revealed that. God told Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed. Isaiah said the Servant would be a light to the Gentiles. Daniel saw the Son of Man receiving a kingdom in which all peoples, nations, and languages would serve Him.

The mystery was the form this would take after the cross: believing Jews and believing Gentiles joined together in one body through Christ, with the dividing wall broken down, and Gentiles made fellow heirs without becoming Jews under the old covenant system.
That was not fully understood before the cross. It was not made known in former ages “as” it was now revealed by the Spirit. But it was not a different gospel, a different God, or a different redemptive plan.

Paul’s revelation did not contradict Daniel or the prophets. It unveiled what they had been pointing toward. This is why Paul could preach Christ from the Scriptures. This is why he reasoned from Moses and the prophets. This is why he could say his gospel was according to the revelation of the mystery and yet also say that mystery is now made known by the prophetic Scriptures.

The mystery was hidden, not absent. It was concealed in promise, prophecy, and shadow, but revealed in fullness after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Can you possibly imagine anyone during the OT time thinking that their God would go to the cross to save both Gentiles and Jews? How could their God be killed and .... sacrifice Himself? Even today, most Jews do not accept that Jesus was God and died and was resurrected.....

 

[PeterAndroz]

I understand what you are suggesting, but I do not believe Paul is teaching a mystery disconnected from Daniel, the prophets, or the words of Christ. Paul does say the mystery was kept secret and made known to him by revelation. But Paul also says in Romans 16:26 that this same mystery is now made manifest “by the prophetic Scriptures.” That means the mystery cannot be something completely unrelated to the Old Testament. It was hidden there, but not fully unveiled until after Christ.

The key is to let Paul define the mystery. In Ephesians 3:6, Paul says the mystery is “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.”

So the mystery was not simply that Gentiles would be blessed. The Old Testament already revealed that. God told Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed. Isaiah said the Servant would be a light to the Gentiles. Daniel saw the Son of Man receiving a kingdom in which all peoples, nations, and languages would serve Him.

The mystery was the form this would take after the cross: believing Jews and believing Gentiles joined together in one body through Christ, with the dividing wall broken down, and Gentiles made fellow heirs without becoming Jews under the old covenant system.
That was not fully understood before the cross. It was not made known in former ages “as” it was now revealed by the Spirit. But it was not a different gospel, a different God, or a different redemptive plan.

Paul’s revelation did not contradict Daniel or the prophets. It unveiled what they had been pointing toward. This is why Paul could preach Christ from the Scriptures. This is why he reasoned from Moses and the prophets. This is why he could say his gospel was according to the revelation of the mystery and yet also say that mystery is now made known by the prophetic Scriptures.

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

The mystery was hidden, not absent. It was concealed in promise, prophecy, and shadow, but revealed in fullness after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Can you possibly imagine anyone during the OT time thinking that their God would go to the cross to save both Gentiles and Jews? How could their God be killed and .... sacrifice Himself? Even today, most Jews do not accept that Jesus was God and died and was resurrected.....

""""Paul’s revelation did not contradict Daniel or the prophets
""""The mystery was hidden, not absent. It was concealed in promise,
Which was first revealed to Paul as an addition, something the OT prophets and the 12 (until Eph 3:5) were unaware of.
Rom 16:25....which was kept secret since the world began,
Eph 3:5.........Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
...................... as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
..

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

 

[Earburner]

I would respectfully request that you might return to the initial post #1 that provides markers under both A and B. Also, I believe these questions above have been addressed in detail. Please take a look at some of the responses within this 20 page topic. Again, I attempted to identify all the markers in the first post that you can use to help identify this individual... you can apply each of them to your personal interpretation to see if it meets every one of them.... thanks.

If you noticed, I had already agreed with your presentation, which is from the linear perspective of how OUR human minds work.

However, because the thoughts of God's Holy Spirit are much higher than our thoughts (Isa. 55:8-9), by the mind of Christ within me (His Holy Spirit), I do avail myself to learn to hear His thoughts of how He thinks, in conjunction with His written words (KJV).

When one is Born again by the Holy Spirit, "the Mind of Christ" literally comes along side our mind within us.
Therefore, for those who will hear His Mind within them, He teaches all to understand that the words of God are NOT linear thinking (chronological), but rather they are three dimensional (3D), speaking in the past, present and future, all at the same time, of which is the realm of His Eternity.

I STRONGLY URGE all Born again Christians to acknowledge the truth of Isa. 55:8-9, and then read, study and digest all of 1 Cor. ch. 2.

So then, for all that I had said in post #404, I cannot confine myself to chronological thinking with my own mind ONLY!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Paul described all unsaved men as being "the natural man", he was speaking of everyone who is born of flesh only, but are not born again by the Holy Spirit.
I perceive and believe that we must steer away from interpreting the words: "that man of sin", as being understood only in the singular, but rather to be in the plural. Therefore, ALL the unsaved are lawless, and are collectively "that man of sin".

That's a good point. The reference to "the natural man" is obviously not referring to an individual man. That's my understanding of "the man of sin", also. Good catch.

The man of sin is also referred to as "that wicked" in 2 Thess 2:8. Again, that does not have to refer to an individual man. Look at this...

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Paul refers to "that wicked person" here, but is not talking about any particular individual person, but anyone who is "a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner".

Another case for viewing the words "that man of sin" should be in the plural, is to understand that Judas Iscariot was not the ONLY "son of perdition", as Jesus did call him to be so. However, we do see that the Holy Spirit called another to also be "the son of perdition". 2 Thes. 2:3.
Scripturally, since there appears to be more than one "son of perdition" that are being revealed, we can safely conclude that the words: "that man of sin" is pointing it out that ALL unsaved people are "that man of sin, the son of perdition".

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [from faith] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Right. Good point. This can be compared to how John said there wasn't just one antichrist, but many. The appearance of a future individual Antichrist/man of sin is just not what scripture teaches.