Who is the Bride of Christ?

[larry2]

some may lose their rewards, or not even receive any. But their salvation is always secure.

Thanks and no dispute with this at all, but with your admitted statement that some lose their rewards, that is exactly what is occurring. The suffering of 2Ti 2:12 If we suffer is not the physical sufferings because of being a desciple of Jesus, but more at abiding, enduring, or persevering in the race before us to win Christ, and to also reign with him. Just off hand I think of the warning to the church of Ephesus in Rev 2:4 being told that Jesus has somewhat against them; they had left their first love, or putting Christ first in their lives so that they may win Christ as their bridgroom. Php 3:8.

Not only are there only two portions of the Church with Jesus in heaven before the tribulation, we see one of the living ones actually participating with Jesus in judgment in Rev 6:1 say in a voice like thunder: "Come."

 

[Harvest 1874]

As (Bible Students) we understand that the Church of Christ, as viewed from the divine standpoint, and as addressed in the Scriptures, includes only "the sanctified in Christ Jesus;"--those who have taken the step of justification through faith and, additionally, the second step of a full consecration to the Lord.

But "the household of faith" takes in a much larger number which includes all believers, --all who have faith in the Lord as their Redeemer from sin and its penalty, --all who are trusting in the precious blood of Christ, and seeking in any degree to be in harmony with the Lord and his rules of righteousness. The loving interest and care of all the "saints" (the consecrated) is to be exercised, not only toward each other, but also especially toward these members of the household of faith who are supposed to be under "instruction in righteousness," helping them forward to take the position of full consecration and become reckoned dead to the world, and new creatures in Christ Jesus, risen with him, to walk in newness of life and to become his joint-heirs in the promised Kingdom.

We have endeavored to show that the begetting of the Holy Spirit, in the case of each individual Christian, is the transforming power by which he passes from the human nature to the new nature (i.e. the Spiritual nature). The priest passing from the Court into the Holy beautifully pictures this transfer in the Tabernacle types.

The court represents, in the present time, the earthly condition of those who are approaching God, but have not yet made a full consecration of their lives to Him and His service (This is the position of the majority of believers today, see Rom 12:1). When the step of consecration is taken, Jesus, acting as our great High Priest, imputes His merit to cover our deficiencies of the flesh, and forthwith presents us to the Father. Our consecration of the earthly nature is thus made acceptable (see note at bottom), and in the Divine reckoning we are from that moment dead according to the flesh, but alive according to the spirit--begotten again, not with corruptible seed, but by the Spirit of God.

All thus begotten are in the Holy in their relationship to God—that is to say, they are children of God, heirs of God. Thereafter they have the enlightenment of the Truth as represented by the Golden Lamp-stand with the seven burners; the spiritual food as represented in the Table of Showbread, and the privileges of worship and prayer as represented in the Incense Altar.

This condition continues until the end of this Age, when a judgment, or testing, or distinction, will be made as between the most faithful, the Little Flock (The Lord’s goat), the Royal Priesthood class, and the less faithful class of the great company (The scapegoat)--the latter thereafter being typed by the tribe of Levi.

In the new order of things, after the establishment of Messiah's Kingdom, this distinction between the Church proper, joint-heirs with Christ, and the larger company of antitypical Levites, will be perpetual, and the services of the two will be different. The former will be a Priesthood corresponding to that of Melchizedek—a Priest upon His Throne. The work of the latter will correspond more to that accomplished by the Levites; namely, teaching the people, etc., as servants of the Priests, from whom they will receive their directions.

NOTE: it is not the present earthly nature that we are sacrificing, for that would be an unacceptable sacrifice, no what we sacrifice is our reckoned perfected restitution rights, the same life rights to which the world of mankind will receive in the next age literally (Acts 3:19-21). Any works (acts of service for the brethren) that we do at present in these marred vessels are considered as perfect works through the imputation of our Lords merit.

Thus it can be seen that although the Household of Faith consist of ALL believers, all presently professing Christians, within this Household, is a separate group designated “the Church of the First Born” these only have experienced a change of nature, these only have made a full surrender, a consecration unto death, thus these only will experience spiritual birth. All those (believers) not having taken this second step will like the remainder of mankind in the Kingdom be resurrected in the human nature. They will all constitute a part of the Earthly Phase of the Kingdom.

In the following scripture the Apostle uses an illustration from nature to teach this lesson to the Church, not regarding those living, but those dead.

“But someone will say, how are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Foolish one, that which thou sows is not quickened (made alive), except it die: And that which thou sows (in death), thou sows not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God (in the resurrection) gives IT (the soul) a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.” (1 Cor 15:35-38)

It is with man in death and resurrection as with the planting of grain (seed) and its reappearance. The original seed that was planted is not that which comes up but, rather another seed of the same sort, i.e. a new grain of the same nature as that which was planted. Whatever kind of seed is planted in death, of the same kind and nature will be the resurrection crop. Some dead souls, in the resurrection, will come forth with spirit bodies, having been begotten of a new nature (seed) and others with human bodies (those who have had no change of nature or seed type). The germ of life through which man shall be restored to being (whether earthly or heavenly nature) is "hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3).

“Like the earthly one (Adam) such will they be also that are earthly (human, i.e. those not having experience a change of nature)--Like the heavenly one (Christ when "born from the dead")--such will they be also that are heavenly, (now begotten to the heavenly nature by the word of God through the Spirit, then to be born into the perfection of that being). 1 Cor 15:48

The Church of the First Born, consist of the “Little Flock”, and the “Great Company” class, both of which will, in the resurrection experience a spiritual birth, having experienced a change of nature in the present life. The Little Flock however will receive the chief reward and take part in the First Resurrection; when resurrected they shall be like their Lord, that is they will possess bodies like their Lord, Immortal bodies.

So in answer to the question, who is the bride of Christ?

We would say only such believers who have taken the second step of a full consecration to the Lord are considered prospective members of the bride of Christ; all such are admonished to make their calling and election sure, that is to faithfully fulfill their covenant with the Lord to be proven faithful even unto death (Psa 50:5; Rev 2:10).

Many (believers) are called (NOT all, but many, now during the “acceptable time”, 2 Cor 6:1, 2), but few are chosen, and still fewer yet prove worthy.

 

[larry2]

We have endeavored to show that the begetting of the Holy Spirit, in the case of each individual Christian, is the transforming power by which he passes from the human nature to the new nature (i.e. the Spiritual nature).

Hi Brother Harvest 1874. thank you. Are you saying that all in Christ are saved, but not going to have God's best and perfect will for them?

Some are chosen to be Jesus' bride and others aren't? Thus the instruction to repent in five portions of the Church in Revelation chapters two & three?

 

[Enoch111]

Some are chosen to be Jesus' bride and others aren't?

If some were chosen and others were not, then that would nullify a great deal of Bible truth. We need to be careful that we do not misrepresent what God has said:

EPHESIANS 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Do we see something to the effect of "a portion of the Church" or "a fraction of the Church" in this passage?

As to Christ's command to Christians to repent, that requires a proper response, but when Christians fail to repent, God has several remedies, apart from tearing off portions of the Body of Christ.

 

[larry2]

As to Christ's command to Christians to repent, that requires a proper response, but when Christians fail to repent, God has several remedies, apart from tearing off portions of the Body of Christ.

Agree completely with this brother, but in Jesus' selection of a bride we're not talking of being torn from the body, but the reward of a life lived for Him. Again in Rev 19:7 the bride has made herself ready. How?

As John was shown the Day of the Lord from the perspective of heaven, he saw four living ones arrive and take their places round about Jesus' throne (Rev 4:4), round about and in the midst of Jesus' throne (Rev 4:6), and before the throne in Rev 7:9 was a great multitude of our brethren from all nations and peoples. What made the difference? Some didn't repent as told to in Revelation chapters two and three?

 

[Helen]

Hi Brother Harvest 1874. thank you. Are you saying that all in Christ are saved, but not going to have God's best and perfect will for them?

Some are chosen to be Jesus' bride and others aren't? Thus the instruction to repent in five portions of the Church in Revelation chapters two & three?

As you said in your next post...the Bride has "made herself ready."
She takes what covering God offers and uses it. The gown is Him..and she clothes her self with Him.

I am reminded of the scripture- "Many are called, but few ( choose to be) are chosen. " Many will not pay the price, or car to run to win our Prize ( of Himself)

 

[Harvest 1874]

Hi Brother Harvest 1874. thank you. Are you saying that all in Christ are saved, but not going to have God's best and perfect will for them?

God’s will is that all those in Christ be fully sanctified, "This is the will of God even your (believers) sanctification (setting apart)." 1 Thess 4:3

Many have fully set themselves apart, “consecrated” themselves to God, however it is still up to the individual to make their calling and election sure, the few (a “little flock”) will prove faithful, even unto death (Rev 2:10), willingly sacrificing their little all, to these tribulations and trials are not something grievous, but are sure evidences that the Lord is dealing with them as children, and if children, then heirs. These are able to glory in these tribulations, to this class theses troubles are consider as not but “light afflictions”, but for a moment, and if they be rightly exercised by them they will in the end work out for them a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (Rom 5:3-5; 2 Cor 4:17).

Unfortunately for the vast majority of their brethren (the great company class), who likewise fully consecrated, these do not willingly sacrifice nor do they consider troubles (tribulations) as light afflictions, to them they are generally considered burdensome and severe, grievous afflictions.

Throughout the Gospel age these two classes have been in the process of development through various trials, tribulations, and the like, many have not been able to receive these rightly and thus have suffered much, according to the flesh, that is, these afflictions have been considered great tribulation to these because they looked at the things behind (the things suffered and lost), rather than the things which are above, they lacked adequate faith in the promises and thus weighed their sufferings according to the world’s standard, thus both classes suffered physically, but these also suffer mental anguish.

Those receiving these tribulations correctly understood that the servant is no greater than his master, if they wished to follow in the masters footsteps they must like their master be made perfect through sufferings (Heb 5:8) they too like their master must be touched with a feeling for the infirmities of the world, in order that they might be made a sympathetic priesthood. (Heb 4:15)

All of the Lord’s people have been caused to pass through fire (troubles), but especially so his wayward sons, who although falling short of the prize set before them due to a lack of faithfulness and entanglement with the cares of this life nevertheless love the Lord and would never deny him. These have been brought often times through severe tribulation in order to burn away the dross, the contaminating elements of their character that they might be fit for life at all. And so it is, our Lord “sits as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify (all) the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver.” (Mal 3:3)

There is a third class of these fully consecrated ones, but they have returned to mire of this world even as the sow returns to the mud, their end is the “second death”.

Some are chosen to be Jesus' bride and others aren't?

All the fully consecrated are called to be the bride of Christ, but only those proven faithful unto death will be chosen to be that bride, the rest, that is those who fail to make their calling and election sure, but who nevertheless refuse to deny their Lord will still be saved, but on a lower plane of existence similar to angels. They will not take part in the marriage itself, but they are nevertheless blessed as they are called (invited) to (attend) the marriage supper of the Lamb and his wife. (Rev 19:9)

Thus the instruction to repent in five portions of the Church in Revelation chapters two & three?

It should be understood that all the messages to the seven stages of the church were written to both the true element (the fully consecrated) as well as to the false or professing element. The purpose was not merely to console and encourage the true element, but to counsel and warn the failing element of where they erred. The hope was that some of these might heed these warnings, but alas very few have as is noted in the condition of the professing church in the last stage of its history, spewed forth from the Lord’s mouth.

As the Lord stated Babylon is fallen, we would have healed her, but she is not healed, (Jer 51:9) forsake her, and let us (the wheat class, those whom the Lord addresses as “my people” in Rev 18:4) go everyone to his own country (ours is the heavenly Canaan) for her judgment reaches up to the skies.”

 

[Enoch111]

Agree completely with this brother, but in Jesus' selection of a bride we're not talking of being torn from the body, but the reward of a life lived for Him. Again in Rev 19:7 the bride has made herself ready. How?

Not through self-effort or self-righteousness. The Bride is clothed with the righteousness of Christ: And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:8).

The imputed righteousness of saints is the perfect righteousness of Christ, the righteousness of God Himself:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him... But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption...In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (2 Cor 5:21;1 Cor 1:30; Jer 23:6)

The Church is not the Bride of Christ for any merits in the saints. All merit and all glory belongs to Christ.

 

[larry2]

The Church is not the Bride of Christ for any merits in the saints. All merit and all glory belongs to Christ.

Amen.
Okay dear brother, it’s time to add to the equation. I’ll first repeat Rev 19:8 and the meaning of righteousness used in the verse.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (Strong’s 1345) of saints. Equitable, or righteous acts or deeds.

We’re given the power, the grace, and Jesus has put to death our old man when we believed on Him, and that so we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6, but to win Christ as our bridegroom (Php 3:8) we must avail ourselves of that reward, even to counting our old man dead in the process. Do all do this? of course not. Why even tell us of reward unless we are involved in its purpose for us.

I might be wrong here, but I think the righteousness you’re thinking of is imputed justification when we believe on Christ. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness (Strong’s 1343), which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Thanks again for your input.

 

[larry2]

Many have fully set themselves apart, “consecrated” themselves to God, however it is still up to the individual to make their calling and election sure, the few (a “little flock”) will prove faithful, even unto death (Rev 2:10)

Okay, I think I'm seeing the problem of the differences in what we're saying. Concerning the church in Smyrna (Rev 2:10), there is no condemnation shown to them. If they remain faithful until death they will receive a crown. These are the twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4. Regardless of our reward, the formula remains the same concerning 1 Thes 4:16, the dead in Christ rise first. This is entirely reward.

It should be understood that all the messages to the seven stages of the church were written to both the true element (the fully consecrated) as well as to the false or professing element.

Their brethren that remain alive until Jesus coming for them are the only other part of the church where a crown is mentioned is the church of Philadelphia that faithfully endure (suffer). Another part of their reward is that they are kept from the temptation (Rev 3:10) that will come upon all the world (1st 3 ½ years of tribulation). These two portions of the Church are the Bride.

If this doesn't start a war, this ought to become interesting now.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

While there are several scripture that appear to suggest the church as the bride of Christ, I believe that further evidence brings me to the only real conclusion that individual church members are but guests at the wedding... Guests which in middle eastern tradition and Biblical tradition attend the marriage supper after the actual ceremony.
What did the apostle JohnJohn when promised to be shown the bride in revelation 21:9?

 

[larry2]

I believe that further evidence brings me to the only real conclusion that individual church members are but guests at the wedding

Hi Brother brakelight, and welcome to this discussion. What makes you believe that? I think of the scripture in Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name. If they be Gentile, who other than the Church could be representative of the bride?

What did the apostle JohnJohn when promised to be shown the bride in revelation 21:9

The thing I see the Apostle John doing exactly what he was caught to that time of the future to do, and it was to record what he was being shown.

John is at a period of time at the end of the millennium, Jesus at that time has given power back unto our Father we read of in 1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Rev 21:9 . . . Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Now the bride was in the Holy Jerusalem with all the elect from all time. We read a bit of that concerning the 144,000 in Heb 14:1. Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

God bless you in Jesus' name.

 

[Ac28]

The Bride was shown, by a figure of speech in Rev 21, to be the occupants of the New Jerusalem. This will be the all-Israel Acts church, OT saints, the 12, etc. The Bridegroom will be Christ and those saints of today, called the One New Man, mainly Gentiles in the present church found only in Paul's 7 books written after Acts, that make up Christ's actual body, where Christ is the actual Head.

 

[larry2]

Hi Brother Ac28 and thanks for contributing your thoughts about the bride of Christ. I did give you a like, although I don't think I'm agreeing with your thoughts of it. I'm always glad to see where others bring forth different ideas.

The thing that comes to mind if I'm understanding what you've said, is that Jesus and the Church will be the bridegroom to Israel. Is there an actual doctrine of some church that believes that?

Blessing in Jesus' name.

 

[Helen]

@brakelite I'm happy to see you interacting in other threads too.
I agree, not all of the Church make up the Bride. ( If that was what you were saying? )

 

[Enoch111]

I might be wrong here, but I think the righteousness you’re thinking of is imputed justification when we believe on Christ.

Yes, and that is the only righteousness which gives one access to Heaven. But after justification comes the perfection and the glorification of the saints BEFORE the Marriage of the Lamb. And all of that is the supernatural work of God and Christ.

No saint can take any credit for that, therefore any suggestion that the righteousness of the saints is in any way their own righteousness is false. It is only through the blood and righteousness of Christ that the saints are clothed with fine linen, clean and white.

Please note the connection between the robe of righteousness and the Bride of Christ: I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. (Isa 61:10)

 

[Harvest 1874]

Okay, I think I'm seeing the problem of the differences in what we're saying. Concerning the church in Smyrna (Rev 2:10), there is no condemnation shown to them. If they remain faithful until death they will receive a crown.

As we had stated in out previous reply, there is only one Church, but there are seven stages in the development of that church. This Church being compose of both a true element (the wheat), and a false element (the tares), the tares did not enter into the Church until the last of the Apostles, the apostle John, went to sleep (i.e. died) See Matt 13:25.

The early church was protected from this false element while the Apostles were still on the scene, but as soon as they were gone, as soon as they all slept, the tares, that is “those who say they are Jews [Spiritual Israelites], and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan [the false church]” Rev 2:9 entered in and began to multiply giving rise to the apostasy.

John was one of the “seven stars”, the angel (or messenger) of the second stage of the church, Smyrna meaning “Bitter” referring to the second age of the church which began right about at the death of John in 100 A.D. and covered the terrible persecutions inflicted by pagan Rome, most notably the last 10 years (symbolically referred to in Rev 2:10 as “ten days”) under the sick mind of Diocletian from 303-313 A.D. which ended with the Edict of Milan and the reign of Constantine.

Now some argue that since John had died previous to this stage of the church he could not possibly be the angel to the second stage of the church, but it is important to keep in mind that it is the message which the angel gave which is of prime importance, not the angel himself, thus even if the Apostle were dead, his message to this stage of the church would still prove effective.

The Lord speaking through his appointed messenger John, warned the faithful at this time of what was to come, the persecutions especially those coming at the end of this stage in the Church admonishing them to remain faithful to fulfill the covenant which they had made when they consecrated themselves fully to the Lord (Rom 12:1; Psa 50:5), and should they prove faithful even unto death (which was the requirement of their sacrifice) they like all the rest of their faithful brethren throughout the Church’s history, who would likewise follow in the Masters footsteps, would take part in the first resurrection and receive the crown of life (the divine nature, immortality).

“The messages given to the seven churches apply to all the generations of the Church throughout its history, both individually (to each separate stage of the Church) and collectively to the whole. Nevertheless the facts of history themselves prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the peculiar characteristics described of each of these Churches in the messages, fit exactly seven distinct, successive periods of the history of the Church in the order mentioned, which establishes the prophetic character of the messages themselves; in the measure that we become familiar with the history of these seven periods, we will be better able to see a most remarkable fulfilment of the messages. Their prophetic character has been recognized by many, if not by nearly all of the expositors who have ever written on the Revelation for the past two centuries."

These are the twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4. Regardless of our reward, the formula remains the same concerning 1 Thes 4:16, the dead in Christ rise first. This is entirely reward.

I’m not sure how you are relating this to those proven faithful unto death. Are you saying you believe the faithful are the twenty-four elders?

Their brethren that remain alive until Jesus coming for them are the only other part of the church where a crown is mentioned is the church of Philadelphia that faithfully endure (suffer).

The reward promised (i.e. the crown of life, the divine nature, immortality) is the same reward to be given to all the faithful over-comers regardless of which stage of the Church they belonged. All of the called must make their calling and election sure, i.e. they must all be proven faithful even unto death, there is no other option. They have entered into a covenant, a binding contract with the Father it cannot be annulled. Once the Lord accepted their sacrifice as part of his own it was added to his and placed upon the altar of sacrifice, it cannot be taken back, it must be totally consume, any failure to do so would be a breach of contract, and would lead to Second death. Notice clearly the injunction of the scriptures was "unto" death, not merely "till" death. Any evasion of persecution or death by the individual is a denial of our covenant.

Now if one fails willingly to fulfill their covenant, to hold back, to neglect to lay down their lives sacrificially as they had covenanted to do they will be delivered over to Satan for his buffetings, for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit (the new life in them) might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

Such who fail to respond to these buffetings, tribulations and to seek the Lord will die the Second Death, but such as respond faithfully and loyally will be counted as over-comers, they will have lost the prize for which they were originally called (the crown of life, the divine nature), but nevertheless be granted the palms of victory shown in Rev 7:9, and be privileged to a share at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:9), and the glories and honors of that occasion. It is only their failure to appreciate their present privileges in voluntary sacrificing that will deter them from gaining membership in the Bride class, and their highest position of honor will be as the "virgins, her companions, who follow her [the Bride.]"--Psa 45:14.

Another part of their reward is that they are kept from the temptation (Rev 3:10) that will come upon all the world (1st 3 ½ years of tribulation). These two portions of the Church are the Bride.

If this doesn't start a war, this ought to become interesting now.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

The sixth stage of the Church, Philadelphian meaning “brotherly love” refers to the time of the Reformation movement, this stage of the church already had enough problems to handle with the proliferation of new leaders and denominations buying for their attention, our Lord recognized this and promised that the “hour of temptation” (of trouble) coming upon the world would not be added to their burdens, but would take place during the last stage of the Church’s history, during the Laodicean stage.

We will not here go into the idea of a seven year tribulation as some purposed as that’s another subject altogether, one which I believe we have already dealt with under another thread.

 

[larry2]

As we had stated in out previous reply, there is only one Church, but there are seven stages in the development of that church. This Church being compose of both a true element (the wheat), and a false element (the tares), the tares did not enter into the Church until the last of the Apostles, the apostle John, went to sleep (i.e. died) See Matt 13:25.

Here is something I’m not acquainted with, and that is that there is a doctrine equating the tares with believers of the church. To me there is no part of the tares that ever were of the Church.

I’m not sure how you are relating this to those proven faithful unto death. Are you saying you believe the faithful are the twenty-four elders?

Yes! Who do you think they are? Until the end of those in Laodicea, and He turns again to Israel, John is shown things of His judgment of the Church in its seven conditions.

We will not here go into the idea of a seven year tribulation as some purposed as that’s another subject altogether, one which I believe we have already dealt with under another thread.

As pertains to the events of this thread being reported from the perspective shown to John of the Day of the Lord, it becomes imperative that we address the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), and the four living ones (Rev 4:6) as being a vision viewpoint of the time hereafter of Rev 4:1, and that begins with the tribulation. Rev 4:1 . . Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. This future vision viewpoint will also extend to those caught up out of great tribulation John is shown before the throne in Rev 7:14.

Thank you Brother Harvest 1874 in Jesus' name.

 

[Ac28]

Hi Brother Ac28 and thanks for contributing your thoughts about the bride of Christ. I did give you a like, although I don't think I'm agreeing with your thoughts of it. I'm always glad to see where others bring forth different ideas.

The thing that comes to mind if I'm understanding what you've said, is that Jesus and the Church will be the bridegroom to Israel. Is there an actual doctrine of some church that believes that?

Blessing in Jesus' name.

It's pretty obvious that the church in Acts was technically all-Israel. The Gentile members were all part of Israel, since they were all grafted into Israel. Israel, before their divorce and forced blindness in Ac 28:28, was the wife of God. The original marriage with Israel was enacted when they said, "I do" to the Sinai Covenant. Under the New Covenant, which is the new marriage agreement, the Acts church, OT saints, etc., will be the Bride. It's also obvious that the hope and calling of the Acts church was the New Jerusalem - Gal 4:26, Heb 11:16, 12:22. The NJ is NOT heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth.

In Paul's 7 post-Acts books -- Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, Philemon -- the hope is not the New Jerusalem. It is Heaven itself, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God -- Compare Eph 1:20-21 (Christ) and Eph 2:6 (Us) -- also see Eph 1:3, 3:10, and 4:10. The Greek translated as "heavenly places" in 4 of those verses appears only in Eph and no where else in the Bible. It essentially means super-heavens. In the OT, several times, this same place is called the Heaven of Heavens. We, the members of the church, which is actually Christ's Body, where Christ is actually the Head, is called the "one new man" -- Eph 4:24, Col 3:10. Since we, alone, are so intimately attached to Christ, according to lots of passages in Paul's 7 post-Acts books, we MUST be part of the Bridegroom.

No one in the other 59 books of the Bible ever had a hope of going to Heaven - search and see.

The Acts church and the after-Acts Church have no similarities, at all, that I am able to find. Somewhere, I have a list of about 50 ways they differ. The biggest difference, though, is the Callings of the two churches. The Acts calling is the New Jerusalem and the post-Acts calling the the Highest Heaven - huge difference. When the Callings of these 2 groups are so totally different, everything else about the 2 must be different. This is proven by comparing the 2 sets of epistles. The Gentile church is a 100% self-sufficient island surrounded by Israel.

This is all done by obeying 2Tim 2:15, which appears only in Paul's post-Acts epistles, rightly dividing (correctly cutting) God's Word. I believe that the scripture only has to be cut or divided once and it must be done in a place where it is all-Israel on one side of the cut and all-Gentile on the other side of the cut. The only place in the Bible this occurs is the very end of Acts. The rule I then apply is that, nothing on the Israel side of the cut applies directly to the Gentile Church today except Christ's work at the cross and our salvation when we believe. By applying Directly, I mainly am referring to those things that require an action on our part -- the great commission, water baptism, the 4 ordinances required of Gentiles in Acts 15, and probably 100s of other things. Otherwise, there are 1000s of things in those other 59 books that are very valuable for our learning and must not be neglected.

It also says in 2Timothy 2:15 that, if we do rightly divide, we will be approved unto God. There are many things in Acts and after-Acts that oppose and contradict each other (e.g., the Rapture vs the Appearing) and, if we don't rightly divide, we end up picking and choosing the one we like the most, at least in our own minds. Since this is not satisfactory to God, we must eliminate all the Israel stuff. None of the things given to Israel were, at the same time, given to any Gentiles who were not associated with Israel in some way (proselytes, grafted in). Why, Oh Why, does Christendom think that all that stuff now belongs to them, with zero scripture to back that up? EVERYTHING we could possibly need is found in the post-Acts books and EVERYTHING there is far, far better than anything belonging to Israel..

There is only one formal group I know of that Rightly divides God's Word of Truth and bases their entire structure on 2Tim 2:15 - the Acts 28 dispensationalists. They are hated and are called nasty names and are lied about, by the mainstream Churches, mainly because at least 50% of what the Denominational system teaches and doesn't want to give up, all the Israel stuff, does not apply to the Gentile Church today. They are mainly copies of Jewish synagogues teaching Jewish truth to unsuspecting Gentiles.

Think on these things. Try to park everything you think you know and read Ephesians, slowly and prayerfully, a few times. Most everything I said is there, as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[larry2]

the Acts church, OT saints, etc., will be the Bride.

Hi Brother Ac28, I don’t know if you’ve read any of my explanation of the Old Testament’s elect comparison with those becoming the new man in Christ. I use the example of John the Baptist in Mat 11:11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:

Now I ask that if Jesus said he was the greatest, wouldn’t you think if those of Israel were a part of the bride of Christ, he would certainly be included?

But no, John the Baptist says of himself in that his joy is being the friend of the bridegroom. Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The NJ is NOT heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth.

Now the following scripture occurs just prior to the middle of the week of tribulation. Please keep in mind that the things is being shown is future to the Day of the Lord, and he is seeing and reporting of things to be hereafter from that period of time. Rev 4:1.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (Where is this?), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (Until coming to earth later, it remains in heaven today.)

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Just when does the New Jerusalem come down from heave that contains not only the bride, but all of God’s own? Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, and as you said, it is after there is a new heaven and earth we read of in Rev 21:1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. This is even at the end of the millennium.

Thanks for your input in Jesus’ name.