Who really was Jesus Christ?

[John Zain]

“… do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you (Joseph) shall call His name Jesus …” (Matthew 1:20-21)

“… Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”
which is translated, “God with us.” (Matthew 1:23, quoting Isaiah 7:14)

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
… He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest
… The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;
therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)

I find it quite interesting that Gabriel said to CALL the future Baby: “Jesus”, “the Son of God”,
“Immanuel”, and “the Son of the Highest” … but Gabriel did NOT say that the Baby WAS these things.
Jesus really WAS the Son of God because the Holy Spirit (God) obviously played the role of His father.
This is the ONLY time this has ever happened, so Jesus truly was God's unique “ONLY-begotten” Son.

This “Jesus” was a new and very unique creation
“In the beginning was the Word (the Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
… And the Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).
Let us stress the fact that the Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Trinity, BECAME Jesus Christ.
A technicality … Since this “Jesus” actually was a new creation, and was “fully God and fully man”,
He could NOT possibly have been in Heaven previously, let alone been part of the Triune Godhead.
And, is there any evidence that “the Son of God” was ever in Heaven prior to the birth of Jesus Christ?

What did the Holy Spirit accomplish when He “overshadowed” Mary?
Why does Scripture emphasize that Jesus did NOT have a human father and a normal conception?
He could very easily have had BOTH a normal conception AND the Holy Spirit overshadowing Him.
Some Bibles correctly state that Mary and Joseph were Jesus’ “parents”, not His mother and “father”.
Mary “conceived” in her womb (Luke 1:31) … so IMO, the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm/seed
for the fertilizing of the female ovum/egg … as opposed to Him performing a creative miracle.
This meant that the “Holy One” (Luke 1:35) would NOT have man’s inherited sin nature.
The highly-acclaimed NKJV Study Bible says the term “Holy One” refers to Jesus’ sinlessness.
Jesus NOT having man’s sin nature was the ONLY possible way that He could live a totally sinless life
… and to be the absolutely perfect, spotless, blameless, sacrificial Lamb of God (to pay for our sins)!
Jesus being “holy … separate from sinners” (Heb. 7:26) means He did NOT have man’s sin nature.

More on man’s inherited sin nature
Mary was a normal flesh and blood human with a sin nature … so IMO,
this proves the sin nature is passed down in man's sperm/seed, and not in the blood.
There are many Scripture verses which teach that ALL humans have a sin nature.
As far as I know, ALL of the famous Bible commentaries teach this truth.
Having man’s “flesh and blood” (Heb. 2:14-17) and coming “in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom. 8:3)
simply means that Jesus came looking like a man, but it does NOT mean Jesus had man’s sin nature.
Paul teaches that man is held captive to “the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2 and 7:23-25).
This “law” of sin (which leads to spiritual death) simply means that ALL men MUST sin!
However, Jesus did NOT have this problem because He did NOT have man’s sin nature.

 

[JLB]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[veteran]

This “Jesus” was a new and very unique creation
“In the beginning was the Word (the Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
… And the Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).
Let us stress the fact that the Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Trinity, BECAME Jesus Christ.
A technicality … Since this “Jesus” actually was a new creation, and was “fully God and fully man”,
He could NOT possibly have been in Heaven previously, let alone been part of the Triune Godhead.
And, is there any evidence that “the Son of God” was ever in Heaven prior to the birth of Jesus Christ?

Part of that idea is error.

The only new invention involved was God The Son being born in a flesh body like ours.

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
(KJV)

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'
(KJV)

Luke 20:41-44
41 And He said unto them, "How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'
44 David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?"
(KJV)


God The Son, "Immanuel" (God with us) was NOT created, ever.

His flesh body through Mary is what was created. His Spirit was not created, as He was with God, and is God everlasting, without beginning, without end, Alpha and Omega like Rev.22 says.


How is one going to understand Heavenly things if they can't distinguish between flesh and spirit???

 

[John Zain]

Veteran, I appreciate your responding to my ideas.

For Jesus to be both man and God is extremely confusing for us.
People have often noted that Jesus sometimes spoke as a man and sometimes He spoke as God.
When people speak of Jesus, they use all kinds of names and titles.
Please provide clear evidence that the Son of God was in Heaven prior to Jesus’ birth.

 

[aspen]

Well, according to a street kid I know, Jesus is his personal 'bad ass', which, apparently is the highest compliment possible.....

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I appreciate your responding to my ideas.

For Jesus to be both man and God is extremely confusing for us.
People have often noted that Jesus sometimes spoke as a man and sometimes He spoke as God.
When people speak of Jesus, they use all kinds of names and titles.
Please provide clear evidence that the Son of God was in Heaven prior to Jesus’ birth.

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
(KJV)


Rev 22:12-16
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(KJV)


Jesus Christ IS... GOD.

 

[aspen]

Jesus is God. The most profound characteristic about Jesus is that He loves us.

 

[John Zain]

Veteran,

Please go back and read the OP and try to comprehend what I'm suggesting.

The GOD part of Jesus was the Word (the Logos) who probably was the Second Person of the Trinity.
The man part of Jesus was human.

Before Jesus’ birth ----------- in heaven: Father, Word, Holy Spirit
After Jesus’ birth -------------- in heaven: Father, Holy Spirit ----------- on earth: Jesus (Word)
After Jesus’ resurrection --- in heaven: Father, Jesus (Word) ------- on earth: Holy Spirit

 

[veteran]

Veteran,

Please go back and read the OP and try to comprehend what I'm suggesting.

The GOD part of Jesus was the Word (the Logos) who probably was the Second Person of the Trinity.
The man part of Jesus was human.

Before Jesus’ birth ----------- in heaven: Father, Word, Holy Spirit
After Jesus’ birth -------------- in heaven: Father, Holy Spirit ----------- on earth: Jesus (Word)
After Jesus’ resurrection --- in heaven: Father, Jesus (Word) ------- on earth: Holy Spirit

Humanism applied to Jesus Christ is a doctrine from men, not from God. The roots of Humanist philosophy has the flesh as its basis. So it cannot weigh nor explain matters of the heavenly or of the Spirit.

The Spirit which was in the flesh of our Lord Jesus' body was still God The Son, which is what the meaning of His Name Immanuel in Isaiah is about, 'God with us', i.e., meaning God born in the flesh like we were. Doesn't literally mean God was turned into flesh. God is a Spirit like Apostle John said; Spirit cannot be turned into flesh, they're two separate workings, even as Jesus also showed in John 3 with Nicodemus.

Even back in Eccl.12:5-7, Solomon revealed this mystery about the makeup of our being. The flesh part is not really 'us', it's only a shell that the REAL part of us lives in upon this earthy world. When the flesh body dies it goes back... to the earthly elements where it originated from (as per Eccl.12). But our 'spirit' that's in the flesh body is a separate order, of the heavenly order, and it goes back to God Who gave it after flesh death (also as per Eccl.12). Solomon mentioned a thing called the "silver cord" being severed at flesh death per Eccl.12. ("Or ever the silver cord be loosed..." - Eccl.12:6). That cord apparently has something to do with connecting our 'spirit' and our flesh body while our flesh is alive. He was talking about flesh death with that silver cord being loosed.

That's why... some people have near death experiences because of their flesh body being on the edge of death, their silver cord almost loosed. There's been too many cases reported for it to be just a fluke too (see Heaven Is For Real, written by a pastor who's little son almost died, and told the family what he saw when his body was in the near-death state). What Apostle Paul taught in 2 Cor.5 agrees with this, as does what he showed in 1 Cor.15 also.

So when Christ was born through woman's womb like us, His Spirit as God did not change. He simply chose... to suffer the weakness of the flesh in order to die for us. Yet the cross could never... kill or destroy His Spirit as God. He even revealed that to us when He told us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not the soul, and after they have killed there's nothing more they can do.

 

[John Zain]

Veteran, thanks for your response.

I have found some verses that teach of the Son of God’s eternal status in Heaven:

Galatians 4:4
“But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman,
born under the law”

Romans 1:3
“… concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh”

1 John 3:8
“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested ...”

Believe it or not, "Christ" was manifested also, which is understandable because:
Messiah = Christ = Son of God (according to the NT Jews).
1 Peter 1:19-20
“… but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
but was manifest in these last times for you”

1 Timothy 3:16 says God was manifested.

So Scripture says all 4 of these were manifested: the Word, the Son of God, God, Christ.

 

[aspen]

Master.

 

[John Zain]

My most hearty APOLOGIES for my Post #10.
I was extremely tired and was not thinking clearly at all.
This is what I should have written:

In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.

I see much confusion in Scripture between these 2 sendings, and I am sure they can
only be resolved through spiritual revelation, which is how all spiritual truth comes.
(I don't see my questions as being cultic because I believe Jesus was fully man and fully God.)
Here are some of the examples:

John 10:
35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’
because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus wasn't sanctified in Heaven before being sent, so this refers to #2.

John 11:
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
Was the woman referring to #1 or #2?

1 John 4:
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
This can easily refer to #2.

1 John 5:
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood — Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
This comes close to saying the Son of God was born of Mary.
It also comes close to saying Jesus born of Mary "was" the Son of God (not just "called" the Son of God).
It also can mean that Jesus was the Son of God because Jesus' "father" was God the Holy Spirit.

Re: the two 1 John's above ...
This TEST of belief could refer to believing that Jesus’ “father” was the Holy Spirit (God).

I still CANNOT find any Scripture that says God's Son, the Son, the Son of God, etc.
was eternally in Heaven, i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.

 

[veteran]

My most hearty APOLOGIES for my Post #10.
I was extremely tired and was not thinking clearly at all.
This is what I should have written:

In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.

I see much confusion in Scripture between these 2 sendings, and I am sure they can
only be resolved through spiritual revelation, which is how all spiritual truth comes.

I don't see any time separation like that changing the prophecy. When Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb, look at what the angel declared. That's to be compared with the time later when He would actually fulfill the prophecy of His coming to die on the cross. Yet the prophecy of His coming began with His conception by The Holy Spirit in Mary's womb, even as Mary's cousin Elisabeth was moved to declare by The Holy Spirit in Luke 3.

(I don't see my questions as being cultic because I believe Jesus was fully man and fully God.)

What is a cultic idea is the concept some have that when Jesus died, His Spirit also died. That concept of course is impossible, and is only a type of denial of Who He is.

Here are some of the examples:

John 10:
35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’
because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus wasn't sanctified in Heaven before being sent, so this refers to #2.

Go back and read the Psalms and Isaiah. You'll find that Christ was sanctified before being born through woman's womb. In the above John 10 Scripture He is also revealing that very point also. And rightly so since He is God The Son, without beginning and without end (Alpha and Omega per Revelation).

....

I still CANNOT find any Scripture that says God's Son, the Son, the Son of God, etc.
was eternally in Heaven, i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.

Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
(KJV)

That in essence is a direct reference to Jesus Christ in the Eternality sense, no beginning no end. That kind of eternal reference can apply only... to GOD Himself.


Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)

That declaration originates from the OT prophets about GOD Himself...


Isa 41:4
4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He.
(KJV)

Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.
(KJV)


Isa 48:12-13
12 Hearken unto Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
(KJV)


Heb 1:1-3
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(KJV)


If you don't believe all that as written, then I guess the answer to Christ's question to the Pharisees will remain a mystery to you...


Matt 22:42-45
42 Saying, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is He?" They say unto Him, "The Son of David."
43 He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call Him Lord, saying,
44 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'
45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?"
(KJV)

So how is that then? Since David as prophet in The Spirit called Christ "Lord" within that Psalms 110 prophecy, then how could Christ be David's son???

Obviously, the offspring of one's father is the lesser of the two, but a lesser one calls their master Lord. David called Christ his "Lord" making David the lesser; yet Christ was the Son of David. So who really is the lesser?

 

[John Zain]

Veteran,

What prophecy are you talking about?

I was talking in general about many verses about Jesus being sent …
In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.

IMO ... the Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Triune Godhead, was the One sent,
and God doesn’t need to be sanctified to be sent anywhere!
I.E. Where does it say that Jesus was sent to become flesh (Jesus)?
Ridiculous ... and that is the whole point. Ditto for the Son of God.

Hebrew 13:8 CAN only refer to after His birth.

I am asking about Scriptures which specifically say …
Jesus existed before His birth ... and/or ... the Son of God existed before Jesus’ birth.

This is all in the flesh, and has nothing to do with anyone’s spiritual revelations.

Muslims (and others) think Christians are crazy for believing that God had a Son.
And who can blame them?

If I am prove wrong about my blue above,
it's just another proof that spiritual truth comes via spiritual revelation
... and it's no wonder that the unsaved don't understand the NT.
The gospel and everything else is total "foolishness" (to the unsaved).

Are you reading me, or am I writing to the wind?

 

[veteran]

Veteran,

What prophecy are you talking about?

I was talking in general about many verses about Jesus being sent …

Many witnesses in the Old Testament Books about both advents (comings) of Christ. Those prophecies are what I was referring to.

In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.

Nope. In Scripture there are TWO separate advents of Christ. The first was about His death on the cross. The second will be when He takes rule over all nations, peoples, and the whole earth. Your #1 and #2 idea is an application you've come up with apart from God's Word, because The Word being made flesh was about Christ's first coming, being born in the flesh through woman's womb to include His later preaching of The Gospel and then His death and Resurrection.

IMO ... the Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Triune Godhead, was the One sent,
and God doesn’t need to be sanctified to be sent anywhere!

Jesus Christ IS... The Word. The Word has been Christ forever. Even the Hebrew definition for the name Jesus means 'Yah is Salvation', as even is the Hebrew word for 'salvation'.

I.E. Where does it say that Jesus was sent to become flesh (Jesus)?

Book of Isaiah.

Ridiculous ... and that is the whole point. Ditto for the Son of God.

Then you are saying GOD is ridiculous, for He is Who gave the prophecy in Isaiah that "Immanuel" would be born through a virgin. The scribes and Pharisee Jews have had that prophecy in their hands all along, and they still don't believe it. And it appears you side with them on that issue.

Hebrew 13:8 CAN only refer to after His birth.

You mean per YOUR requirements of disbelief, it can only refer to after Christ's birth.

Pretty clear that you still... refuse to accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, which per the Old Testament prophets points directly to GOD.

 

[John Zain]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Word (Logos) [the Second Person of the Trinity] was sent by the Father, and became flesh (Jesus).

At this point in time, this ONE born of Mary began being CALLED "Jesus" and "the Son of God",
as per the instructions of Gabriel.

When Jesus was on earth, was the Word (Logos) NO longer allowed to speak?

When Jesus said, "Gee, I was with the Father (and shared His glory) for the last trillion years!"
... why cannot this actually be the Word (Logos) talking?

When Jesus walked the earth, the "fully God" part of Him was NOT Jesus, it was the Word (Logos)
... because it was the Word (Logos) who became Jesus in da foist place.

I just don't see an eternal Jesus coming down to earth and becoming flesh (Jesus).
No, the Word (Logos) came down and became flesh (Jesus).

I see "Jesus" and "the Son of God" as being only names/titles.

But, after the Word (Logos) was given these 2 additional names,
it was kosher to say they were equivalent to Him, i.e. meant the same as Him
... on earth, and then later in Heaven (including now).

After Jesus' birth, as far as names/titles go ... the Word (Logos) = Jesus = the Son of God

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

All of the above arguments are interesting, it seems people really must justify what they believe to be true. We should trust the Word for what it says, and NOT what any man says.

The bible does refer to Jesus as the 'son of God', but you must understand that Lucifer was a 'son of God' as were the angels, and Adam. So to think of Jesus as 'just a man' strips Him of His glory.

There are over 100 occurences of Christ refering to Himself as the great 'I AM'.


An often overlooked passage proving that Jesus was the same God of the Exodus is found in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 which reads; "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
This would bring us to another verse used by those who doubt the Godhead -- "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Sadly, most Christians overlook the deeper meaning by throwing out the Old Testament account found in Exodus 33:19-21 that reads; "He [God] said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee [Moses], and I will proclaim the name of Yahweh before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And God said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock."

Now, how does that entire verse in John 1:18 read? It says; "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared."

As you can see, this is yet another proof that Jesus is God. Notice how God makes yet another reference to 'the rock' and that Jesus Himself 'declared' these Words? These passages should also shed some extra light on why God was upset with Moses for 'striking' the rock instead of 'speaking' to it for water in Numbers 20:7-12. Remember when the Roman soldier pierced Jesus' side as He hung on the cross and "forthwith came out blood and water (John 19:34)?" Just a little something to think about.

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." A few verses down it continues "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:1-4, 17)."

Most Christians are familiar with the Old Testament account where Melchizedek the king of Salem (or the "king of peace") met Abram and blessed him after the battle he fought to free Lot. The account isn't very long; "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all (Genesis 14:18-20)." In both Old and New Testament accounts we can see that Abram was 'blessed' by Melchizedek, the priest of the most high God.


The name Melchizedek means "king of right (Strong's #H4442)" and it's locked into Messianic prophecy over in Psalm 110:4 that reads; "God hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek (1833 Webster Bible)."

Who is the King of Peace? Why would Abram the great patriarch of Israel's race pay a tithe to Melchizedek? Who else can give 'blessings' but God Himself? Notice the bread and wine? Melchizedek is also described as without father, mother or descent having no "beginning of days, nor end of life" and was "made" like "the Son of God." Who do you think this is?

John Zain appears to be a wolf in sheeps clothing sent to spread lies mong the wheat!

IMO? The bible isn't open to private interpretation, so your 'opinion' means zilch!

Christ was "Emmanuel, God in the Flesh" The Word was in the beginning, as God merely had to SPEAK things into creation, so the Word is also the Creator.

This is why the Pharisees hated Christ, he told them that He was God, and that "Before Abraham was, I AM' among a hundred other references.

Our King and Savior taught that an anti Christ is someone that rejects Him, and that if they don't have Him then they have not the Father. If you dont recognize Christ as messiah, then I tell you now you are no better than the scribes and pharisees. A den of vipers, and bags of bones...

 

[John Zain]

All of the above arguments are interesting ...

They may be interesting, but you really have NO idea what I'm getting at.
Blessings anyway!

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

i apologize, i read deeper into the matter. It appears you are simply stating that names and titles are irrelevant as it is still God all along.

 

[pompadour]

xBlux Tunicx82. post #17 well done. I can't belive how confused some people can get... Melchizedec, most people have never heard of him, and fewer know who he is/was.
pomp.