Thank you, it is important that Christians realize the deity if Christ, otherwise they are worshipping a false god. Just as Lucifer is the early star, or the imposter Christ, we must always be on guard against those who pronounce Christ is a mere 'man.
Who really was Jesus Christ?
- Thread starter John Zain
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Some forum threads should be given the warning label: CCC
… which stands for:
Concentrate – closely on what you are reading
Comprehend – the meaning of what you are reading
Consider – openly what you have just read
… which stands for:
Concentrate – closely on what you are reading
Comprehend – the meaning of what you are reading
Consider – openly what you have just read
This thread is such that el posto numero 22 is directed at everyone's attention!
Translation: this is not for the faint of heart ... thou art advised to proceed with extreme caution.
I think it’s time to put this topic to rest … as I see it as an unimportant technicality.
I hope this last attempt will further clarify to some people what I’ve been saying.
The Word (Logos) was God, and He was with Father God from the beginning … John 1:1.
The Word (Logos) came down to earth and became flesh (Jesus) … John 1:14.
IMO, the Word (Logos) was the Second Person of the Trinity.
Gabriel instructed: “that Holy One who is to be born”
will be CALLED "Jesus" and "the Son of God" … Luke 1:31,35.
So, from Jesus’ birth onwards … the Word (Logos) = Jesus = the Son of God
The point is …
Both of these NAMES: "Jesus" and "the Son of God" originated at the time of Jesus’ birth.
These NAMES were never used before Jesus’ birth, i.e. no Scriptures prove that they were.
But, it certainly IS Scriptural to say that Jesus, the Son of God, is in Heaven now.
I hope this last attempt will further clarify to some people what I’ve been saying.
The Word (Logos) was God, and He was with Father God from the beginning … John 1:1.
The Word (Logos) came down to earth and became flesh (Jesus) … John 1:14.
IMO, the Word (Logos) was the Second Person of the Trinity.
Gabriel instructed: “that Holy One who is to be born”
will be CALLED "Jesus" and "the Son of God" … Luke 1:31,35.
So, from Jesus’ birth onwards … the Word (Logos) = Jesus = the Son of God
The point is …
Both of these NAMES: "Jesus" and "the Son of God" originated at the time of Jesus’ birth.
These NAMES were never used before Jesus’ birth, i.e. no Scriptures prove that they were.
But, it certainly IS Scriptural to say that Jesus, the Son of God, is in Heaven now.
Selene
New Member
The fact that Jesus is the LOGOS at the very beginning shows that He was with God since the beginning. A difference in name or title does not change who the person really is. Jesus, the ETERNALLY begotton Son of God was there at the beginning of creation because all things were created through Christ.
Ephesians 3:9 and to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
After Christ, the nature of God becomes more clear. God created all things through Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ was not there when God created the universe, then how can the Apostle Paul make this statement? Jesus Christ had always been there as the Word of God (Logos). The fact that He later became known as Jesus in the New Testament does not change who He really is. Jesus is still the "Word" of God even as He was walking on the earth 2000 years ago. St. John recognized Jesus as the "Word" (Logos), which is the reason why St. John stated in His Gospel: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. St. John recognized Christ for who He really is.
In the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah also prophesized that the Son is God.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The prophet Isaiah recognized that this Son that will be born of a virgin has a name. And His name is called "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father." He recognize that the Son IS the Father. Despite their different names, they are recognized to be one and the same person. There are three persons in one God. How is that possible is a mystery that human logic cannot understand. Since when is God supposed to be in accordance to human logic? God can defy human logic. It is only by faith that we know God's nature as three persons in one.
The fact is that Scripture does NOT say Jesus was God at the very beginning!
But, Scripture clearly says the Word (the Logos) was! John 1:1
Yes, I see Ephesians 3:9 as being a little problematic ...
except that AFTER Jesus' birth everyone CALLED Him Jesus, the Son of God
(God saw to it that Gabriel's instructions were honored), i.e. no one called Him the Word (Logos).
This was in keeping with God's desire to have a personal relationship with us.
Thus, He gave a personal name (Jesus) to the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Can you imagine yourself saying, "I praise You, Word, for being the Creator of all things!"?
Isaiah 9:6 just confirms what Jesus said in John 14:16-26.
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
The Greek word here for "another" is "allos" meaning "another of the same kind" (ref: Vine).
So, the Holy Spirit is another Person of the Triune Godhead (like God the Son).
It seems to say that ...
all 3 Persons of the Triune God will come to be with the faithful believer,
but only the Holy Spirit will remain in him/her forever (i.e. until death),
and only the Holy Spirit will be the One doing the teaching.
I have seen that when you have One Member of the Trinity some place,
you really have all Three there ... that's how much in unity in every way They are!
Selene
New Member
What difference does that make? They're still the same person. Simon's name was changed to Peter, but he's still the same person. Saul's name was changed to Paul, but again Saul and Paul are not two different people. In the Bible, people get their names changed a lot. Even Abraham had a different name, but he's still the same person. Logos and Jesus Christ are the same person. The Logos that came down in the flesh was Jesus Christ. Are you saying that there are two different Logos?
Selene,
This'll be my swan song re: explaining this ... please try to pay attention.
The Word (the Logos) was "fully God" ... and IMO He was the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Jesus Christ was "fully God" AND "fully man".
Now, do these Two sound the same to you?
Close only counts in horseshoes.
This'll be my swan song re: explaining this ... please try to pay attention.
The Word (the Logos) was "fully God" ... and IMO He was the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Jesus Christ was "fully God" AND "fully man".
Now, do these Two sound the same to you?
Close only counts in horseshoes.
The Word IS... Christ Jesus, even as Apostle John revealed in the very first verses of John 1.
John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(KJV)
Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
(KJV)
John 1:10-17
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.
11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of Him, and cried, saying, "This was He of Whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for He was before me."
16 And of His fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)
From start to finish in John 1 about "the Word", Apostle John is talking about Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Jesus Christ.
So you're little game of trying to separate Christ Jesus from "the Word" (logos) phrase is all for nothing.
Hello John.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
The "I am", hmmm, now where have I heard that one before?
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
The "I am", hmmm, now where have I heard that one before?
Okay, you guys aren't buying into my technicality about ...
The Word (Logos) couldn't possibly be exactly the same as Jesus "fully God and fully man".
So now ... how about the origin (beginning) of the 2 Names: "Jesus" and "Son of God"?
I.E. before this wonderful point in time, He was simply the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity.
IMO, the beginning was when Gabriel visited Joseph and Mary (separately).
Good Luck!
The Word (Logos) couldn't possibly be exactly the same as Jesus "fully God and fully man".
So now ... how about the origin (beginning) of the 2 Names: "Jesus" and "Son of God"?
I.E. before this wonderful point in time, He was simply the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity.
IMO, the beginning was when Gabriel visited Joseph and Mary (separately).
Good Luck!
The angels are 'sons of God', Adam and his children are 'sons' of God, even Lucifer himself is considered a 'son' of God. This is why there is the distinction between the sons of God and the sons of the Devil. Of course Christ is the 'son' of God as He was born through the same family line as King David, who was born directly from Adam.
You are correct, He was simply that 'Word', but it was that same 'Word' that spoke everything into being. Many people may have a hard time grasping the 'meat' of what you are getting across. There are many 'new' Christians that will barely grasp the 'milk' of the message much less understand what the Logos really represents.
The distinction about the 'son' of God is that it is His spirit manifest into the physical. When Adam was 'formed' (not created like those found in Gen 1:26) he was given the 'breath of life' or spirit of God in his nostrils. In the Ferrar Fenton translation Adam was called a 'Representative' of God, thus having this spirit, there was now a direct image of God on earth.
Through Satan in Eden, Eve was beguiled, wholly seduced, and she bare Cain as a result. The descendancy of Cain is represented as the 'children of the devil' or 'OF that wicked one'. Recall John 8:44 for example, Jesus is speaking to a literal descendant of Satan, not just someone who is spiritually corrupt. If they are 'of' that wicked one, then they to are wicked and cannot be brought to light.
As Adam was born of God, and through him Christ came, and God is 'The Father', then all who are of the Adamic creation, are 'of' God, and considered His children.
You are correct, He was simply that 'Word', but it was that same 'Word' that spoke everything into being. Many people may have a hard time grasping the 'meat' of what you are getting across. There are many 'new' Christians that will barely grasp the 'milk' of the message much less understand what the Logos really represents.
The distinction about the 'son' of God is that it is His spirit manifest into the physical. When Adam was 'formed' (not created like those found in Gen 1:26) he was given the 'breath of life' or spirit of God in his nostrils. In the Ferrar Fenton translation Adam was called a 'Representative' of God, thus having this spirit, there was now a direct image of God on earth.
Through Satan in Eden, Eve was beguiled, wholly seduced, and she bare Cain as a result. The descendancy of Cain is represented as the 'children of the devil' or 'OF that wicked one'. Recall John 8:44 for example, Jesus is speaking to a literal descendant of Satan, not just someone who is spiritually corrupt. If they are 'of' that wicked one, then they to are wicked and cannot be brought to light.
As Adam was born of God, and through him Christ came, and God is 'The Father', then all who are of the Adamic creation, are 'of' God, and considered His children.
Get into a Biblical study of God's Names in the manuscript languages and you'll quickly see how that the name 'Jesus' can't be separated from The Father's Name of YHVH either. Both names point to GOD ALMIGHTY in the Hebrew.
Selene
New Member
Just because the Word decided to put on a body does not mean that He is now two different persons. He is still the same and one person even when He puts on a body. In the same way, when I decided to put on new clothes, I"m still the same and one person.
I got only as far as your sentence above.
IMO, the KEY element here is ...
Of course Christ is the 'son' of God as He was born through the miracle of God the Holy Spirit,
who played the role of Jesus' "father", which really did make Jesus the Son of God.
Yes, I agree ... as long as you promise to keep some clothes on, we'll all be very happy.
Upon further reflection, I would like to ask you ...
Did this superior explanation come through spiritual revelation?
Because the idea came to me ...
The Word (Logos) was originally clothed in Heaven with an incorruptible body.
After He came to earth, He became flesh (clothed in a corruptible body).
After this body died, He returned to Heaven in His incorruptible body.
The Word (Logos) now lives again in Heaven in His incorruptible body.
Selene
New Member
The God that Christians worship is a God who knows humility even from experience. He is not just a God who tells us to be humble, but also knows from experience how to be humble. Jesus is God incarnate. The God Christians worship can tell us to be humble because He has humbled Himself into a human being....in the person of Jesus Christ.
A god who tells humans to be humble but has never known humility is a false god. The Christian God, on the other hand, knows humility not only by definition, but also from experience. In other words, the Christian God actually knows what it's like to be human because He is NOT a distant God.
The Christian God came down to mankind and humbled Himself into a human to reach out to us, because He is "love." The Christian God knows humanity by definition and by experience. He completely understands what it's like to be human and to have human fears and suffering....and yes, He even knows what it's like to die. The false god, on the other hand, only knows what it's like to be a false god. He knows nothing about humanity. The false god doesn't even know anything about human suffering, humility, or even about death. He does not know these things because he has never experienced it. He only knows how to be a false god. The false god keeps his distance and humans reach out to him instead. The false god is a distant god. The true God is NOT a distant God. Why? Because God is love (1 John 4:8) and love never keeps its distance. Love does not wait for the other to reach out to Him. He reaches out to them. Above all, love knows humility (1 Corinthians 13:4).
The Word (Logos) was originally clothed in Heaven with an incorruptible body.
After He came to earth, He became flesh (clothed in a corruptible body).
After this body died, He returned to Heaven in His incorruptible body.
The Word (Logos) now lives again in Heaven in His incorruptible body.
IMPORTANT CORRECTION to the above follows:
The Word (Logos) was originally clothed in Heaven with an incorruptible body.
After He came to earth, He became flesh (clothed in a corruptible body).
He returned to Heaven IN BODILY FORM (Luke 24:51) ... but with what kind of body?
The Word (Logos) now lives again in Heaven with what kind of body (corruptible or incorruptible)?
After He came to earth, He became flesh (clothed in a corruptible body).
After this body died, He returned to Heaven in His incorruptible body.
The Word (Logos) now lives again in Heaven in His incorruptible body.
IMPORTANT CORRECTION to the above follows:
The Word (Logos) was originally clothed in Heaven with an incorruptible body.
After He came to earth, He became flesh (clothed in a corruptible body).
He returned to Heaven IN BODILY FORM (Luke 24:51) ... but with what kind of body?
The Word (Logos) now lives again in Heaven with what kind of body (corruptible or incorruptible)?
Zain: Nothing was made that was not made by him, and for him = Jesus ........... In the begining was the word, the word was with GOD, the word was GOD, the word became flesh and dwelt with men. = Jesus.. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father........................ What is your problem?
pomp.
pomp.
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