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Who Was The First On In The Body Of Christ ?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by dan p, Mar 28, 2009.

  1. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi to all . There are many points of view as to when the Body of Christ began , 1) I believe that 1 Tim 1:15,16 , tell us who the first one was in the Body of Christ .2) Faithful is the WORD and worthly of all reception , that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I am PROTOS . 3) The Greek word PROTOS means FIRST , unless you are talking about RANK or Dignity , which is not the case HERE .4) Yes Paul was very bad person , and he felt bad about persecuting that Assembly before he was saved. And in v16 , but for this reason I was given mercy , in order that in me PROTOS ( first ) Christ Jesus might show forth all LONGSUFFERING for a PATTERN of the ones coming to believe on Him unto everlasting life . 5) What this teaches us is , that Paul was the FIRST one saved in the Dispensation of Grace , and that is when the Body of Christ began .
     
  2. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (dan p @ Mar 28 2009, 05:39 PM)
    Hi to all . There are many points of view as to when the Body of Christ began , 1) I believe that 1 Tim 1:15,16 , tell us who the first one was in the Body of Christ .2) Faithful is the WORD and worthly of all reception , that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I am PROTOS . 3) The Greek word PROTOS means FIRST , unless you are talking about RANK or Dignity , which is not the case HERE .4) Yes Paul was very bad person , and he felt bad about persecuting that Assembly before he was saved. And in v16 , but for this reason I was given mercy , in order that in me PROTOS ( first ) Christ Jesus might show forth all LONGSUFFERING for a PATTERN of the ones coming to believe on Him unto everlasting life . 5) What this teaches us is , that Paul was the FIRST one saved in the Dispensation of Grace , and that is when the Body of Christ began .
    NO, that isn’t what the text is talking about. Prōtos is an adjective and the noun it modifies is sinners. Paul is saying he is the chief among sinners1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief(G4413) .G4413πρῶτοςprōtospro'-tosContracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.Part of speech: adjective
     
  3. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (dan p @ Mar 29 2009, 12:39 AM)
    Hi to all . There are many points of view as to when the Body of Christ began ,
    The Body of Christ is also The Church. The Church “was born” on the day of Pentecost. Therefore those present in the upper room at the birth of the Church are those that become the “first on in the Body of Christ”.
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    But when does the Bible say the Church was born?
     
  5. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    The church began at Pentecost.
     
  6. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Document it -- actually using Scripture is what I am getting at here.
     
  7. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (Denver @ Mar 30 2009, 05:50 PM)
    Document it -- actually using Scripture is what I am getting at here.
    There are some “words” that we Christians use which are not in the Bible. Words like the “Trinity” and the “rapture” and in the same way we use the “birth of the Church”. We as Christians know what we are talking about when we say the “Trinity” and same goes for the account in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came. That was the “Birth of the Church” although the words “Birth of the Church” is not in the Bible. I am a Word person and I also like to have Scriptural prove for everything said, but we have to know the Word of God and bring more than just one verse to explain the Trinity of God without having one verse to prove that.
     
  8. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    QUOTE (bethog @ Mar 30 2009, 12:46 PM)
    There are some “words” that we Christians use which are not in the Bible. Words like the “Trinity” and the “rapture” and in the same way we use the “birth of the Church”. We as Christians know what we are talking about when we say the “Trinity” and same goes for the account in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came. That was the “Birth of the Church” although the words “Birth of the Church” is not in the Bible. I am a Word person and I also like to have Scriptural prove for everything said, but we have to know the Word of God and bring more than just one verse to explain the Trinity of God without having one verse to prove that.
    1) Hi bethog , in Gal 3:28 , Paul writes this , There is neither Jew nor Greek , there is neither bond nor free , there is neither male nor female , for ye are all one in Christ Jesus . You find this only Written by Paul .2) My question to you is , can you find in the Gospels or the book of Acts , where similar verse is quoted about the 12 ?3) Show me ANY Christians in the Gospels or where they are on the Day of Pentecost ?
     
  9. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (dan p @ Mar 30 2009, 08:36 PM)
    1) Hi bethog , in Gal 3:28 , Paul writes this , There is neither Jew nor Greek , there is neither bond nor free , there is neither male nor female , for ye are all one in Christ Jesus . You find this only Written by Paul .2) My question to you is , can you find in the Gospels or the book of Acts , where similar verse is quoted about the 12 ?3) Show me ANY Christians in the Gospels or where they are on the Day of Pentecost ?
    I am not sure what you mean by "about the 12"Rom 10:12 (New King James Version)For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. Colossians 3:11 (New King James Version)11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.Ephesians 2:15-16 (New King James Version)15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.1 Corinthians 12:13 (New King James Version)13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.In all four Gospels and Acts we find “followers of Christ”, those who had follow the teachings of Christ. Again as we would say “Christians”. The word Christian is used to describe the followers of Christ, again one of those words not commonly used in the Bible, but we find it once in ActsActs 11:26 (New King James Version)26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.Christians = Χριστιανός = ChristianosLexicon Results Strong's G5546 - Christianos = a follower of Christ
     
  10. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,There are many more. Technically the "church" even the christian church was founded before the foundation of the world. God knew, and he planned. As far as Paul, there were already others who were saved as paul asked to go kill the followers of "the way" Acts 22:4-And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.Obviously there were others who were before Paul. If I had to say anyone who would be the first conversion of Christianity, aside from Mary and Joseph, would be John the baptist. The same who baptised Jesus, and was sent to prepare the way.
     
  11. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Mar 31 2009, 05:20 AM)
    1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,There are many more. Technically the "church" even the christian church was founded before the foundation of the world. God knew, and he planned. As far as Paul, there were already others who were saved as paul asked to go kill the followers of "the way" Acts 22:4-And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.Obviously there were others who were before Paul. If I had to say anyone who would be the first conversion of Christianity, aside from Mary and Joseph, would be John the baptist. The same who baptised Jesus, and was sent to prepare the way.
    I do not understand why you quote 1 Peter 1:20 in this context as this verse is talking about Jesus and not the Church itself. 1 Peter 1:19-20 (New King James Version)19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for youYes God knew the end from the beginning, but there was a specific time for the Church to come into being or to be “birthed”.
     
  12. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    QUOTE (bethog @ Mar 31 2009, 12:38 PM)
    I do not understand why you quote 1 Peter 1:20 in this context as this verse is talking about Jesus and not the Church itself. 1 Peter 1:19-20 (New King James Version)19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for youYes God knew the end from the beginning, but there was a specific time for the Church to come into being or to be “birthed”.
    Okay, I see your point. I guess I misunderstood the question. I see now, thanks.
     
  13. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi to all . I have notice that there are some that believe , that the Body of Christ began at Acts 2 . 1) Some believe that the Church began in Genesis . 2) Others believe it began at Acts 2 , Israel's day of Pentecost . 3) Some believe it began at Acts 9 :6 and Rom 1:1 , and that is me . There is not a bibical mid-Acts postion, because I can not find it . 4) Others say at Acts 11 , and I know of only one who holds this view . 5) Some at Acts 13 :46 . 6) Then we have the Hyper-dispensationalist at Acts 28:28 . 7) Where are you AT ? 8) Mainline Christainity------------------------------------------------RCC-------------------------- 9) They believe in water Baptism-------------------------------------They believe in water Baptism 10) Church began at Pentecost-------------------------------------The Church began at Pentecost 11) believe in the Priesthood of believers---------------------------They have a Preisthood 12) believe in Jesus earthly ministry-----------------------------------believe in Jesus earthly ministry 13) preach the Gospel of the Kingdom--------------------------preach the Gospel of the Kingdom 14) believe in the Great Commission-----------------------------believe in the Great Commission 15) believe in tongues---------------------------------------------believe in tongues also 16) believe in Visions------------------------------------------------believe in Visions also 17) Most churches , whether they KNOW it or not , are teaching the doctrine , tenets and the belielfs of the RCC . 18) The Body of Christ began with the salvation of Saul/Paul in Acts 9: 6 , and Rom 1:1 , tells us that Paul was limited to ONLY preach the Gospel of the Grace of God . 19) And the message that he received was directly from the Lord in Gal 1:11-12 , But I certify you , brethern taht the gospel which was preached of me is not of man. 20) For I neither received it of man , neither was I taught it , but by the revelation of Jesus Christ . 21) For this message was hid in God , before the foundation of the world . Eph 1:4 and Eph 3:1-9 , and Paul was not taught by the 12 , neither preached what the 12 preached .
     
  14. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Mar 30 2009, 10:20 PM)
    1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,There are many more. Technically the "church" even the christian church was founded before the foundation of the world. God knew, and he planned. As far as Paul, there were already others who were saved as paul asked to go kill the followers of "the way" Acts 22:4-And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.Obviously there were others who were before Paul. If I had to say anyone who would be the first conversion of Christianity, aside from Mary and Joseph, would be John the baptist. The same who baptised Jesus, and was sent to prepare the way.
    1) You say that the Christian Church was found before the foundation of the world , where is that verse ?2) If John the Baptist is in the Body , give a verse for that assumption , please ?
     
  15. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    QUOTE (dan p @ Mar 31 2009, 08:14 PM)
    1) You say that the Christian Church was found before the foundation of the world , where is that verse ?2) If John the Baptist is in the Body , give a verse for that assumption , please ?
    The answer to your first question, was Mark 1:1, but as pointed out it's out of context for the nature of your question. However, I meant it to point that God founded the church before the foundation of the earth, by having a plan.(Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22)13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to stop him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and are you coming to me?”15But Jesus answered him, “Let it be this way for now, because this is the proper way for us to fulfill all righteousness.”[j]At this, he permitted him to be baptized.[k] 16When Jesus had been baptized, he immediately came up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens opened up for him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him. 17Then a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with him!”John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus, (Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22) There's more prophesies but I can't remember where they are written. I'm thinking Isiah is a good start for John the baptist.
     
  16. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    So much incorrect information has absolutely run amok in this thread.QUOTE
    Matthew 16:17-18And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Simon Barjona was used because his name meant rock, however, the foundation of the church, the body of Christ is none other than Christ (the true rock). The church was not mystically founded anywhere in Acts. The rock is Christ, because he is the cornerstone:QUOTE
    Ephesians 2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    QUOTE
    Matthew 21:42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    The corner stone being, of course, the first stone laid in a foundation. It's Christ's church, never, ever forget that!
     
  17. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (Denver @ Apr 1 2009, 02:49 AM)
    So much incorrect information has absolutely run amok in this thread. . . . . . . , never, ever forget that!
    I have read a couple of the different subjects on “Christianity Board Christian Forum” and I have noticed that you are ready to correct each and everybody with some aggression without mercy. Do you have a problem when people giving their opinion? Is the purpose for “Christianity Board Christian Forum” that everybody must believe and think just as you do or else . . . QUOTE (Denver @ Apr 1 2009, 02:49 AM)
    The corner stone being, of course, the first stone laid in a foundation. It's Christ's church, never, ever forget that!
    It is defiantly the truth as you state it here. Christ is the corner stone and for that there are clear Scripture. For those of us saying that the “birth of the Church” was in Acts 2 is a presumption which we make as we read the Bible in context, but same can be said for the presumption you make as your Scripture used do not clearly answer to the question of this thread
     
  18. LanceEh

    LanceEh New Member

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    I would say the Disciples on the day of Pentecost.
     
  19. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    QUOTE
    I have read a couple of the different subjects on “Christianity Board Christian Forum” and I have noticed that you are ready to correct each and everybody with some aggression without mercy. Do you have a problem when people giving their opinion? Is the purpose for “Christianity Board Christian Forum” that everybody must believe and think just as you do or else . . .
    I guess you could say I am sometimes aggressive and quite blunt when it comes to the Word of God. To be frank, I am angered by a lot of the false teachings out there and nothing is worse for me than comments being made about Scripture without using Scripture. If I was without mercy(love), then I would not make the post. The very reason I post is to correct and hope that folks will look it up for themselves. I guess my lot in life as far as this forum is to deal with things on sometimes a not-so-friendly level. If that be the case, so be it. I caution you not to make a judgment call on me without actually knowing me beyond a few posts, though. And honestly, I don't see a problem with calling something false doctrine; if you'll notice I don't insult the person that espouses it.As that stands, if the purpose of this site were solely to pass off Denver's doctrine, it sure would not be a forum.
     
  20. bethog

    bethog New Member

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    QUOTE (Denver @ Apr 1 2009, 05:32 PM)
    I guess you could say I am sometimes aggressive and quite blunt when it comes to the Word of God. To be frank, I am angered by a lot of the false teachings out there and nothing is worse for me than comments being made about Scripture without using Scripture. If I was without mercy(love), then I would not make the post. The very reason I post is to correct and hope that folks will look it up for themselves. I guess my lot in life as far as this forum is to deal with things on sometimes a not-so-friendly level. If that be the case, so be it. I caution you not to make a judgment call on me without actually knowing me beyond a few posts, though. And honestly, I don't see a problem with calling something false doctrine; if you'll notice I don't insult the person that espouses it.As that stands, if the purpose of this site were solely to pass off Denver's doctrine, it sure would not be a forum.
    Let us stay with Scripture and clarify “who of what” is “the Church”. Ephesians 2:14-20 (New King James Version)14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,There are a few notable truths in this Scripture. Let us look at two.1. “as to create in Himself one new man from the two” This Scripture speaks of the Church as “one new man” Thus not only the Jews or the Nations, but the new man that came from both Jews and Nations. So in order to be called “the Church” there have to be the “coming together” of the “one new man”2. :16 “reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross” This part of Scripture speaks of both “in one body”, and again mentioning of the Church or the body of Christ. But take note that it will happen “through the cross”. Therefore only after Jesus was crucified this “one new man” could come into existence. While Jesus came and gave His live for all (Jews and Nations), His ministry on earth was only for the Jews. Therefore while Jesus was on earth before His death and resurrection the Church could not be as only the Jews were preach to (except for a very few exceptions to the rule, but that did not make the Church)Matthew 15:24 (New King James Version)But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
     
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