Who's the Lord being referred to as David's Lord in Psalm 110?

[Wormwood]

I am not sure what your point is with that text. I agree that Jesus and the Father are distinct persons and that Jesus preexisted in glory with the Father as the Word prior to the existence of the world. That still doesn't teach that the Father and YHWH are not the same. If God is Triune (which I believe he is...one God, three persons) then YHWH refers to all three persons of God (Father, Son and Spirit). Thus, there is no need to distinquish YHWH from the Father. The Father is clearly depicted as the Creator and YHWH is depicted as the Creator in the Scriptures as well. I think Father, Son and Spirit were all involved in creating the world. They constitute ONE God, YHWH and consist of three distinct persons.

 

[4Pillars]

Taken from the other thread (see below).... relative to the topic.

Notice how the Son was brought forth (begotten) into this physical world... SEPARATED from the invisible realm of his Father.... when God spoke the Word in the beginning.... before the world was..... and said... Let there be light (Gen 1:3)

Here's how you can reconcile the Story of the Beginning .... The bringing forth the Son of God into our physical world... using only the Scriptures .... My witnesses (3).

[SIZE=12pt]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Prov. 8:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Prov 8:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen, 1:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Prov 8:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.Gen.1:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.John 1:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Prov 8:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:5[/SIZE]
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:5

 

[4Pillars]

[SIZE=12pt]The Son physically [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]existed[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]BEFORE the World was. He was brought forth [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]into our physical world [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in the beginning... when [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]spoke the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Word[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]and said... "LET THERE BE LIGHT": [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]a[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]nd there was light. Gen. 1:3 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And became the only God physically formed for us to see and witness. And got separated from the invisible realm of his Father.... who is a Holy Spirit.... without physical shape or form.... and changes Not.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The brightness of the glory of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] God[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the Son[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt])[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] provided the light in the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]B[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]eginning (Alpha) and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as He [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]will also[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]provide the light in the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] End (Omega).... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]in the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]New [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Heaven and New Earth to come[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]YHWH or [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Jesus is NOT an Angel but also God[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]himself. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Later, h[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]e was AGAIN sent into this world and Made Flesh to save us from our sins.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Heb 1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]AND AGAIN[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v1:6 AND AGAIN, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Why do we suppose the words "AND AGAIN" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are used [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]repeatedly and emphasized 2x in the texts? [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Let's continue reading, shall we...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]v1:10 And,Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and "the heavens are the works of thine hands:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Oh I see.. the Son was brought forth (begotten) into this world the 1st time [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]when He provided the True Light in the Beginning [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Gen 1:3)....[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and made the physical world for our inhabitation, thereof. In him, is the fulness of Godhead, bodily (physically). [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Later, He was again sent into this [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]world and made flesh to save us form our sins...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]v1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]even thy God[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Now, l[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]et’s give credit where credit is due!! I give mine to the Son... my Father[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt];[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] my God[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and My Savour...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The above analogy is only based on my Christian Biblical opinion... Therefore, you can believe whatever you want.[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

4Pillars,

I am confused. It seems you are saying that YHWH was created as a physical entity in Genesis 1 when (the Father?) spoke the Word, saying "Let their be light." So, are you suggesting that Jesus/YHWH was created as physical light in that spoken word or Jesus created the physical light? I am not sure which it is. Either the physical incarnation of Jesus was created in the first spoken word or he was the Creator, you cant have it both ways.

Second, I fear your doctrine leans towards a form of Gnosticism. You make it sound like the Father is entirely distant from the physical creation. You seem to be claiming that Jesus/YHWH was created at the first spoken word, and then Jesus/YHWH commenced creating and ruling over the physical universe. Thus, the Father seems quite out of the picture after the physical creation of Jesus.

Third, John makes it clear that the Word preexisted from the beginning and that the Word was God. The Greek word is logos, which can mean purpose, reason, logic, etc. John does not say that God's word/logic/reason came into existence at the beginning (of the universe?). Rather, the word/reason/logic/purpose already existed..."In the beginning was the Word..." It was out of that reason/purpose/word that brought creation into existence. In essence, John is not giving a narrative for the incarnation of Christ in John 1:1, but is showing how Jesus Christ is the rationale and purpose behind all of the universe.

Fourth, your scenario suggest two incarnations (Jesus created as the Word/YHWH in Genesis 1:1, and created as a man in Matthew 1:25). I do not see any text to suggest this. Rather, Paul indicates he was "in very form God" and then became "in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:6-7). So, we don't see this three step progression of Jesus being God, being created as word/light, and then being created as man.

Fifth, I think your views have the appearance of a form of Modalism. If Jesus was the Father, who was created as YHWH/Word and then created as man, then it appears you are suggesting that the distinction between the Father and Jesus/Word did not exist until Genesis 1:1. That, prior to Genesis 1:1, there was no different persons of the Godhead. Am I understanding your point correctly? If that is what you are arguing, then you are claiming that the distinct person/personality of Jesus/YHWH was created by the Father and was not eternally preexistent. I may be misunderstanding you here, but this is my impression.

Sixth, while I think the Proverbs you cite can be references to Jesus as the Word/logic/wisdom, that existed at the beginning of creation, these texts do not teach that this wisdom was created at the beginning of the universe. Rather, wisdom has always existed with God. The point of the proverbs is that people should seek wisdom because it is foundational to all else.

Finally, I think you are missing the powerful literary parallels John is trying to create in the person of Christ. I believe John is teaching that in the beginning, the Word is what gave purpose, light and life to everything. The Father, the Word and the Spirit interacted with the waters (the Spirit hovered over the surface of the deep) to bring new life. So also, Jesus Christ came into a dark and formless world to bring light and life. This happens through the Word of Christ, the Spirit and the waters of Christian baptism. When someone becomes a Christian through faith in the word of Christ, the Spirit comes upon them in the waters and they are formed into a new creation. In essence, God created life in a dark and formless world in Genesis 1:1 through the Word, Spirit and water, and so God is recreating life in a dark and formless world through the Word of Christ, the Spirit and the water.

I appreciate your reflections, but I just think you are mistaken on this one.

 

[pom2014]

The mere idea that the creator had to create himself is alone an enigma wrapped in a paradox.

What it sets up is a Ouroboros effect.

It is as odd as the idea that the New Testament must have four gospels as there are four corners or the world, four winds and four angels in Ezekiel. (this was the inane reasoning behind Irenaeus choosing only four gospels in his canon, a canon most of Christendom calls THE Canon)

There was no separation at the beginning, that came when God had to become human in response to man's need for salvation and a final sacrifice for sin.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
†. Matt 22:41-46 . . Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus
asked them a question; saying: What do you think about the Christ, whose
son is he? They said to him: The son of David. He said to them: Then how
does David in the Spirit call him "Lord" saying: The Lord said to my Lord: Sit
at My right hand until I put thine enemies beneath thy feet. If David then
calls him "Lord" how is he his son?

Jesus quoted Psalm 110:1, where there are two distinct Hebrew words for
"lord". The first is yhvh, a name reserved exclusively for God. The second is
'adown, which is a very common title of respect for one's superiors in the
Old Testament. Sarah revered her husband Abraham as 'adown (Gen 18:12)
Rachel revered her dad Laban as 'adown (Gen 31:5) and Jacob revered his
brother Esau as 'adown (Gen 33:8). So then; Psalm 110:1 can be translated
like this:

"The utterance of Jehovah to my superior: Sit at my right hand until I place
your enemies as a stool for your feet."

David is the paterfamilias of the Davidic dynasty. As such his royal
descendants are forbidden to lord it over him.

†. Ex 20:12 . . Honor your father

So the question is: How did one of David's descendants get ahead of him?

This is really an enigma when it's considered that according to Ps 89:27
there are no kings higher in rank than David.

============================================

 

[4Pillars]

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I am confused. It seems you are saying that YHWH was created as a physical entity in Genesis 1 when (the Father?) spoke the Word, saying "Let their be light." So, are you suggesting [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]that Jesus/YHWH was created as physical light in that spoken word or Jesus created the physical light? I am not sure which it is. Either the physical incarnation of Jesus[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]was created in the first spoken word or he was the Creator, you cant have it both ways. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Yes, you seem to be a confuse person.... Feeding us distorted premises for argument.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]In fact, contrary to your view, the record will show that, I even made sure to mention in one of my posts that.... YHWH was NOT Created... but instead was brought forth [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](begotten) [/SIZE]into this physical world from the invisible realm of his Father and PROVIDED the light needed in the beginning of Genesis....
thru the brightness of the glory of the Son..... ref. my post # 18, 22 and 23....

[SIZE=11pt]Also, for the record.... in order for you not to assume and distort my position unintentionally..... Here’ my official stand of the matter that you brought forth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]1) [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]I am claiming that the invisible God Father is the Creator during the Genesis - creating matters/things from nothing (ex-nihilo)... through the power of his logos.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2) [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]The Son, on the other hand, is thy Maker - improving or making things out of already existing matters... i.e. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]M[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]aking man from Already Existing Dust of the Ground.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Therefore, contrary to your false assumption, I can have it both way..... [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Second, I fear your doctrine leans towards a form of Gnosticism. You make it sound like the Father is entirely distant from the physical creation. You seem to be claiming that [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Jesus/YHWH was created at the first spoken word, and then Jesus/YHWH commenced creating and ruling over the physical universe. Thus, the Father seems quite out of the picture [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]after the physical creation of Jesus. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Once again, that’s just based on your own insinuation and confusion of my stand.... thus, causing it to create false premises for argument.....[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]In fact, both Father and Son were perfect in their team work during the Genesis see my other postings from the other thread - Genesis - True Story of the Beginning. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]threadhttp://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21592-genesis-the-true-story-of-the-beginning/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Third, John makes it clear that the Word preexisted from the beginning and that the Word was God. The Greek word is logos, which can mean purpose, reason, logic, etc. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]John does not say that God's word/logic/reason came into existence at the beginning (of the universe?). Rather, the word/reason/logic/purpose already existed..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]."In the beginning was the Word..." It was out of that reason/purpose/word that brought creation into existence. In essence, John is not giving a narrative for the incarnation of Christ [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]John 1:1[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], [/SIZE]but is showing how Jesus Christ is the rationale and purpose behind all of the universe.

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Your objection and argument is only based on your own made up premises and assumption ... [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]A[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]nd not in context to what I have posted and intended to show....Sorry[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Fourth, your scenario suggest two incarnations (Jesus created as the Word/YHWH in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Genesis 1:1[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], and created as a man in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Matthew 1:25[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I do not see any text to suggest this. Rather, Paul indicates he was "in very form God" and then became "in the likeness of men" ([/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Phil 2:6-7[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]). So, we don't see this three step progression of Jesus being God, being created as word/light, and then being created as man. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Again, your argument is based only on false premises and distorted insinuations.... My postings is clear... deal with it directly....or ask where I stand instead of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]feeding us your assumption.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Fifth, I think your views have the appearance of a form of Modalism. If Jesus was the Father, who was created as YHWH/Word and then created as man, then it appears you are suggesting[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]that the distinction between the Father and Jesus/Word did not exist until [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Genesis 1:1[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]. That, prior to [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Genesis 1:1[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], there was no different persons of the Godhead. Am I understanding your [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]point correctly? If that is what you are arguing, then you are claiming that the distinct person/personality of Jesus/YHWH was created by the Father and was not eternally preexistent. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I may be misunderstanding you here, but this is my impression.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]No, your understanding is distorted. Now, exactly, what is it, that you don’t understand in my reconciliation of the 3 different Scripture / Texts regarding the Story of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]the Beginning.... [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]in chronological order of the events.... ref to my post # 22.... which says “I WAS BROUGHT FORTH”... It did not say that “I WAS CREATED” ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]as you would like others to believe, did it[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]? [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Come on... [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]S[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]top feeding us false premises for discussion. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Woodworm[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Sixth, while I think the Proverbs you cite can be references to Jesus as the Word/logic/wisdom, that existed at the beginning of creation, these texts do not teach that this wisdom was created [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]at the beginning of the universe. Rather, wisdom has always existed with God. The point of the proverbs is that people should seek wisdom because it is foundational to all else. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Once again, your argument is out of context to the intention of my posts and only based on your own religious view... The fact is, the 3 Scriptures I put together... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]are in chronological order [/SIZE]of the events of Genesis and in harmony together.... without having to ask your opinion. Read it again.

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Finally, I think you are missing the powerful literary parallels John is trying to create in the person of Christ. I believe John is teaching that in the beginning, the Word is what gave purpose, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]light and life to everything. The Father, the Word and the Spirit interacted with the waters (the Spirit hovered over the surface of the deep) to bring new life. So also, Jesus Christ came into [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]a dark and formless world to bring light and life. This happens through the Word of Christ, the Spirit and the waters of Christian baptism. When someone becomes a Christian through faith [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]in the word of Christ, the Spirit comes upon them in the waters and they are formed into a new creation. In essence, God created life in a dark and formless world in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Genesis 1:1[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]through the Word, Spirit and water, and so God is recreating life in a dark and formless world through the Word of Christ, the Spirit and the water. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Again, your false ASSUMPTION is out-of- context to what I have intended to show others.... to see and study it for themselves. Therefore, I find your objection baseless [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]and only meant to confuse others of the real issue brought forth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Wormwood: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I appreciate your reflections, but I just think you are mistaken on this one. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4Pillars:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]My postings are based only on my Biblical understanding. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]T[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]herefore, you can believe whatever you want. So long you don't distort my view with your ASSUMPTIONS.[/SIZE]

 

[4Pillars]

[SIZE=12pt]The Mystical Union of God....[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]A mystical union is one that God made, one of which is marriage. Since marriage is not made on earth but in heaven, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]it’s G[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]od who actually joins the man and the woman[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]in Mystical Union. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And this mystical union of marriage has a precedent,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].... T[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]he Unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as One God (Collective One, that is)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]O[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ne in Unity [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]is used in the case of Gen. 2:2[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]4, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]when the husband and wife are called O[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ne (echad) Flesh [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]by God. The use of the Hebrew word "echad" (One) in the text... is only possible in the sense of U[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]nity... as Collective One - A Mystical Union from Heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]We can[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] also[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] understand John 10:30 in this sense, “I and my Father are one.” One in Unity not in number. It is also in this sense that thousands can be [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]O[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ne like the builders [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]of the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]tower of Babel in Gen 11:6. Even the millions of Christians can be [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]O[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ne in this sense according to John 17:21.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Another example:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]“[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]There are three (numeric) that bear records in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]O[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ne (Mystical Union). 1John 5:7[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]My Conclusion: Therefore, God is One in Unity... not in Numeric Number..... A Mystical Union Of God, indeed. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]But that’s just my own Biblical understanding.... and my own Version of the Triune of God as One (not the traditional Trinity doctrine, of course)...[/SIZE]

 

[pom2014]

Where does it say a "[SIZE=12pt]Mystical Union of God" [/SIZE]in scripture?

And Marriage was not formed in Heaven. There is no marriage in heaven. It is for the children of this world.

Where is this coming from?

 

[4Pillars]

Where does it say a "[SIZE=12pt]Mystical Union of God" [/SIZE]in scripture?

And Marriage was not formed in Heaven. There is no marriage in heaven. It is for the children of this world.

Where is this coming from?

[SIZE=12pt]Obviously, what you failed to comprehend upon reading my post with preconceived notion is the fact that...The Scripture teaches us .... while M[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]arri[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]a[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ge[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] is [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]performed here[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] on earth[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]... it[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] is still [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]under the Jurisdiction of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Heaven...Therefore, husband and wife is considered as [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]One Flesh (even though male and female are two individual beings) ...[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] no man can separate them... [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] A Mystical Union indeed.[/SIZE]

Mat 19
[SIZE=12pt]v4 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]them[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] at the beginning made them male and female,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v5 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v6 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Therefore, it is simile to the Unity of the Triune Of God as One [/SIZE](echad) Lord!!! ... Collectively!!! .... It is the Mystical Union of God.

 

[Wormwood]

4Pillars,

I was very careful to assert what I felt like you were saying and responding to those inclinations. If my understanding was incorrect, then perhaps you are not communicating clearly, or maybe I was just misunderstanding. Either way, we are not mind readers. Your views are clearly your own creation and are not how the church has viewed these matters for 2,000 years. So, why are you so sensitive if someone doesn't fully understand your own doctrinal creation based on a few short posts on an online board? You need to relax a little. No one is trying to demonize you. I was reflecting on your comments. If I misunderstood something, simply clarify rather than playing the martyr role. I felt that I was being honest and genuine in my response. People misunderstand my position all the time. Simply clarify. There is no need for asserting that I am either dense or malicious.

Now, for your comments:

[SIZE=11pt]Yes, you seem to be a confuse person.... Feeding us distorted premises for argument.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]In fact, contrary to your view, the record will show that, I even made sure to mention in one of my posts that.... YHWH was NOT Created... but instead was brought forth [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](begotten) [/SIZE]into this physical world from the invisible realm of his Father and PROVIDED the light needed in the beginning of Genesis....
thru the brightness of the glory of the Son..... ref. my post # 18, 22 and 23....

[SIZE=11pt]Also, for the record.... in order for you not to assume and distort my position unintentionally..... Here’ my official stand of the matter that you brought forth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]1) [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]I am claiming that the invisible God Father is the Creator during the Genesis - creating matters/things from nothing (ex-nihilo)... through the power of his logos.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2) [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]The Son, on the other hand, is thy Maker - improving or making things out of already existing matters... i.e. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]M[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]aking man from Already Existing Dust of the Ground.[/SIZE]

So, to clarify, Jesus was "begotten" as a man, and prior to that was "begotten" as the Word. Prior to that he existed with the Father as a distinct person of the Godhead. Correct? I think the confusion here is that misguided groups such as the JWs use the word "begotten" to indicate the creation of Jesus. I think your terminology lends itself to misunderstanding since oneness people use that terminology to argue against the preexistence of Jesus.

When you say that the Father was "creating matter/things from nothing (ex-nihilo)...through the power of his logos" and then "the Son, on the other hand, is thy Maker - improving or making things out of already existing matters..." Again, I am looking for clarification here. If Jesus is the Logos (as we see in John 1) then how can you say Jesus didn't create things from nothing, the Father did this, but Jesus improved or made things out of already existing matter. If the Logos was the power behind ex nihilo creation, then I don't understand how you separate him from one part of creation while attribute him to the other part. I am not ridiculing you, I just don't get it. Is there a text you are using to draw these distinctions?

[SIZE=11pt]Your objection and argument is only based on your own made up premises and assumption ... [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]A[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]nd not in context to what I have posted and intended to show....Sorry[/SIZE]

Just trying to understand. These lines you draw where Jesus was begotten as Word (what was he before?) and then begotten later as human is a strange idea to me. I am just trying to understand your meaning of "begotten" as Word and where you get these progressions of the Father begetting but not creating Word and then sitting back while Word creates humanity. Some texts here would be helpful for me to try to see how you are finding these ideas in the Bible.

[SIZE=12pt]v4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]AND AGAIN[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v1:6 AND AGAIN, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. [/SIZE]

I don't understand how you are getting Jesus being begotten as Word/light
[SIZE=12pt]In your words...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Oh I see.. Son was brought forth (begotten) into this world the 1st time [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]when He provided the True Light in the Beginning [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Gen 1:3)....[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and made the physical world for our inhabitation, thereof. In him, is the fulness of Godhead, bodily (physically). [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Later, He was again sent into this [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]world and made flesh to save us form our sins...[/SIZE]

All these passages in Hebrews are referring to the "Son." They are speaking about Jesus being born as a man. I am not seeing how this refers to Jesus being begotten into the universe in Gen. 1:1.

 

[4Pillars]

Wormwood:
So, to clarify, Jesus was "begotten" as a man, and prior to that was "begotten" as the Word. Prior to that he existed with the Father as a distinct person of the Godhead. Correct? I think the confusion here is that misguided groups such as the JWs use the word "begotten" to indicate the creation of Jesus. I think your terminology lends itself to misunderstanding since oneness people use that terminology to argue against the preexistence of Jesus.

4Pillars:

[SIZE=8pt]The Son was at the bosom of the Father from the beginning, from everlasting. before the MAKING of our physical world.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]He was “BROUGHT FORTH (meaning - [/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]cause to exis[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]t or begotten ) ... through the power of the Father’s logo... Into our physical world.... Becoming the FIRSTBORN of every Creature. [/SIZE]
(Col 1:15)....
He was brought forth into this physical world in the beginning... NOT as a Human being. But as the burning True Light in Heaven (John 1:9)... which is brighter than a noon day sun. However, the Son has a lot of physical form.... He also took the form of a WORM at one time but not like you, though...

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD (the Father) hath said unto me (YHWH, the Son), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Notice: The Speaker of the cited text above during the Old Testament..... was the Son, himself... describing what was told of him by his Father.

Heb1:6 AND AGAIN, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Wormwood:
When you say that the Father was "creating matter/things from nothing (ex-nihilo)...through the power of his logos" and then "the Son, on the other hand, is thy Maker - improving or making things out of already existing matters..." Again, I am looking for clarification here. If Jesus is the Logos (as we see in John 1) then how can you say Jesus didn't create things from nothing, the Father did this, but Jesus improved or made things out of already existing matter. If the Logos was the power behind ex nihilo creation, then I don't understand how you separate him from one part of creation while attribute him to the other part. I am not ridiculing you, I just don't get it. Is there a text you are using to draw these distinctions?

Per your request.... Here’s my post from the other thread... that might help you understand the perfect team work of the Father and Son during the Genesis...

Genesis 1:21 tells us that every living creature that moveth was brought forth from the waters on Day 5. This included the sons of God of Gen. 6 who's origin is from the waters.
Genesis 2 tells us of Creatures made from the dust. Some people see this as a contradiction, and falsely assume that God made a boo boo.

They are ignorant of the fact that God (Elohim) originally created every Living Creature that moved, from the water, on Day 5. The account of the formation of the beasts
of the field and fowl of the air, from the Dust, on the 6th Day, is when YHWH or Jesus (the Son) squeezed, as a potter would mold clay, and formed living creatures from the dust of the ground.

The creatures made from the dust were identical to those cre from the water, and could produce offspring with the creatures from the water.
The first Living Being made from the dust was man. Man was made on the 3rd Day before the plants and herbs, right after the mist that watered the whole face of the ground =
Gen 2:4-7. This gives mankind Preeminence or First Place among all other Living Creatures.
Like the animals made from the dust, humans also married and produced children with Beings brought forth from the water. That's where Cain's wife came from,
and that is who Noah's grandsons married, on this Planet.

Therefore, INCEST was NEVER a part of our Lord God (Son') plan..... in the process of multiplication of Mankind.

We have the DNA of the sons of God (Prehistoric Mankind) and we also have the Human Intelligence that can ONLY be inherited from Adam,
the first Human. Yes, we all descended with modifications from a common ancestor, and his name is Adam.

God created every living creature that moveth, from the water, on the 5th Day, and Jesus produced " their/His Kinds" from the dust of the ground, on the 6th Day.

[SIZE=8pt]We are confined to our own kinds in order to multiply. [/SIZE]

Wormwood:
Just trying to understand. These lines you draw where Jesus was begotten as Word (what was he before?) and then begotten later as human is a strange idea to me. I am just trying to understand your meaning of "begotten" as Word and where you get these progressions of the Father begetting but not creating Word and then sitting back while Word creates humanity. Some texts here would be helpful for me to try to see how you are finding these ideas in the Bible.

4Pillars:
The Son has a lot of physical likeness which I already cited some of them in my other post # 7


Wormwood:
All these passages in Hebrews are referring to the "Son." They are speaking about Jesus being born as a man.

4Pillars:
You absolutely do NOT know what you are talking about.... Next time, don't intentionally EDIT the thrust of the context of my quotes, so that, you don't look silly making such erroneous comment...

Now, contrary to your view, the cited Hebrews passages also refer to the time that the Son being Lord in the beginning ... who laid down the foundation of the earth and heavens are work of his hands (Ref. Heb 1:10)

Read again the whole context of the post...

YHWH or Jesus is NOT an Angel but also God himself. Later, he was AGAIN sent into this world and Made Flesh to save us from our sins.

Heb 1
v4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
v5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? AND AGAIN, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
v1:6 AND AGAIN, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Why do we suppose the words "AND AGAIN" are used repeatedly and emphasized 2x in the texts? Let's continue reading, shall we...

v1:10 And,Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and "the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Oh I see.. the Son was brought forth (begotten) into this world the 1st time when He provided the True Light in the Beginning (Gen 1:3).... and made the physical world for our inhabitation, thereof. In him, is the fulness of Godhead, bodily (physically).
Later, He was again sent into this world and made flesh to save us form our sins...

v1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Wormwood:
I am not seeing how this refers to Jesus being begotten into the universe in Gen. 1:1.

[SIZE=8pt]He was “BROUGHT FORTH (meaning - [/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]cause to exis[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]t or begotten ) ... through the power of the Father’s logo... Into our physical world....[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt]Becoming the FIRSTBORN of every Creature. Col 1:15[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Pillars, on 16 Jun 2015 - 1:38 PM, said:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Here's how you can reconcile the Story of the Beginning .... The bringing forth the Son of God into our physical world... using only the Scriptures .... My witnesses (3)[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Prov. 8:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Prov 8:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.Gen, 1:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Prov 8:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.Gen.1:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.John 1:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Prov 8:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:5[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

However, the Son has a lot of physical form.... He also took the form of a WORM at one time but not like you, though...

Can you explain this?

IM going to have to go through the rest later. I have an appointment.

 

[4Pillars]

Can you explain this?

IM going to have to go through the rest later. I have an appointment.

That was a joke.... However, He really did describe himself as a "Worm"... in one of his parables

Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
v7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
v8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

 

[Wormwood]

Ah, gotcha on the joke .

Genesis 1:21 tells us that every living creature that moveth was brought forth from the waters on Day 5. This included the sons of God of Gen. 6 who's origin is from the waters.
Genesis 2 tells us of Creatures made from the dust. Some people see this as a contradiction, and falsely assume that God made a boo boo.

They are ignorant of the fact that God (Elohim) originally created every Living Creature that moved, from the water, on Day 5. The account of the formation of the beasts
of the field and fowl of the air, from the Dust, on the 6th Day, is when YHWH or Jesus (the Son) squeezed, as a potter would mold clay, and formed living creatures from the dust of the ground.

The creatures made from the dust were identical to those cre from the water, and could produce offspring with the creatures from the water.
The first Living Being made from the dust was man. Man was made on the 3rd Day before the plants and herbs, right after the mist that watered the whole face of the ground =
Gen 2:4-7. This gives mankind Preeminence or First Place among all other Living Creatures.
Like the animals made from the dust, humans also married and produced children with Beings brought forth from the water. That's where Cain's wife came from,
and that is who Noah's grandsons married, on this Planet.

Therefore, INCEST was NEVER a part of our Lord God (Son') plan..... in the process of multiplication of Mankind.

We have the DNA of the sons of God (Prehistoric Mankind) and we also have the Human Intelligence that can ONLY be inherited from Adam,
the first Human. Yes, we all descended with modifications from a common ancestor, and his name is Adam.

I don't know where to begin with this. I think the Genesis account is clear that God created every creature that dwells in the sea on day 5. The creatures that lived on dry ground on day 3. Man was created on day 6 (man is distinct from the animal kingdom). You are really taking some leaps here rather than just taking the simple reading of the text.

You absolutely do NOT know what you are talking about.... Next time, don't intentionally EDIT the thrust of the context of my quotes, so that, you don't look silly making such erroneous comment...

Now, contrary to your view, the cited Hebrews passages also refer to the time that the Son being Lord in the beginning ... who laid down the foundation of the earth and heavens are work of his hands (Ref. Heb 1:10)

Read again the whole context of the post...

YHWH or Jesus is NOT an Angel but also God himself. Later, he was AGAIN sent into this world and Made Flesh to save us from our sins.

Heb 1
v4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
v5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? AND AGAIN, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
v1:6 AND AGAIN, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Why do we suppose the words "AND AGAIN" are used repeatedly and emphasized 2x in the texts? Let's continue reading, shall we...

If you are going to be patronizing, I will not continue this conversation. I know exactly what you said and you are piecemealing passages together and tearing them out of their context. Why don't we look at the whole section to which you are referring in Hebrews:

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:5–14, ESV)

First, the point of the author here is clearly to distinguish Jesus from Moses and angels. The focus here is showing how Jesus is greater than the Law of Moses. The references to "and again" has nothing to do with creating a chronology. It is merely a literary device to show multiple passages that prove a single point. Here the author is quoting multiple Scriptures to show how Jesus is superior to angels...period. You are creating something out of nothing here 4pillars. The point is quite simple. The author is showing how Jesus: Is called God's Son, is the object of angelic worship, is given a throne to rule, and is the Creator of the heavens and earth.

Nothing here is saying that Jesus was "begotten" by the Father as YHWH to form the ex nihilo created material of the universe. You have come about these ideas on your own. The text says no such thing.

 

[4Pillars]

Wormwood:
I don't know where to begin with this. I think the Genesis account is clear that God created every creature that dwells in the sea on day 5. The creatures that lived on dry ground on day 3 (???). Man was created on day 6 (man is distinct from the animal kingdom). You are really taking some leaps here rather than just taking the simple reading of the text.

4Pillars:
[SIZE=10pt]What makes you think only sea creature were created in Day5? Do you have the Scripture to support your view?..... [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Man was Physically FORMED from the dust of the ground [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]becoming a living soul on the 3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]rd[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Day. (Gen.2:7)....[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Then, Adam and Eve were CREATED [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]SPIRITUALLY [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]in the image and likeness of God, together on the 6[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]th[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Day.... AFTER they have already committed their “original sin”.(Gen. 1:26-27)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Do you want Reconciliation of the Scripture?[/SIZE]

Wornwood:
If you are going to be patronizing, I will not continue this conversation. I know exactly what you said and you are piecemealing passages together and tearing them out of their context. Why don't we look at the whole section to which you are referring in Hebrews:

4Pillars:
[SIZE=10pt]Well, well... IF you are going to argue about my post, then, have the courtesy or decency to show the entire contexts of the quotes that your are disputing.... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]and not edit them to suit your style of fallacious argument.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Also, please stop accusing me doing “piecemealing passages together and tearing them out of their context”..... [/SIZE]What I am doing is called...
Providing Scriptural Proof Texts that are in harmony together... supporting all the assertions... I am making in all of my posts....

Wornwood:
First, the point of the author here is clearly to distinguish Jesus from Moses and angels. The focus here is showing how Jesus is greater than the Law of Moses. The references to "and again" has nothing to do with creating a chronology. It is merely a literary device to show multiple passages that prove a single point. Here the author is quoting multiple Scriptures to show how Jesus is superior to angels...period. You are creating something out of nothing here 4pillars. The point is quite simple. The author is showing how Jesus: Is called God's Son, is the object of angelic worship, is given a throne to rule, and is the Creator of the heavens and earth.

Nothing here is saying that Jesus was "begotten" by the Father as YHWH to form the ex nihilo created material of the universe. You have come about these ideas on your own. The text says no such thing.

4Pillars:
Of course not, your argument is based only on your own made up story. And the Book of Hebrews is NOT where I made my original claim you are questioning

[SIZE=10pt]Here is the complete quotes where I made my claim .... Read it again...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Son was at the bosom of the Father from the beginning, from everlasting. before the [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]MAKING[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of our physical world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]He was “[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]BROUGHT FORTH[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt](meaning - cause to exist or begotten [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]) ... through the power of the Father’s logo... Into our physical world....[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Becoming the FIRSTBORN of every Creature. [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Col 1:15[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt])[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]He was brought forth into this physical world in the beginning... NOT as a Human being[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. But as the burning True Light in Heaven ([/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]John 1:9[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt])... which is brighter than a noon day sun. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]However, the Son has a lot of physical form.... He also took the form of a[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] WORM[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] at one time but not like you, though... [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Psa 2:7[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]I will declare the decree: the LORD [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt](the Father)[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] hath said unto me[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] (YHWH, the Son), [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Thou [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]art[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] my Son; this day have I begotten thee[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Notice: The Speaker of the cited text above during the [/SIZE]Old Testament.[SIZE=12pt].... was the Son, himself... describing what was told of him by his Father.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Heb1:6[/SIZE] [SIZE=18pt]AND AGAIN[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt], he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.[/SIZE]



NOW DEAL WITH THE COMPLETE THOUGHT OF THE QUOTE...

 

[Wormwood]

[SIZE=10pt]What makes you think only sea creature were created in Day5? Do you have the Scripture to support your view?..... [/SIZE] Man was Physically FORMED from the dust of the ground
becoming a living soul on the 3rd Day. (Gen.2:7)....Then, Adam and Eve were CREATED SPIRITUALLY in the image and likeness of God, together on the 6th Day.... AFTER they have already committed their “original sin”.(Gen. 1:26-27)

This passage is not contradictory with Genesis 1, nor do we need to create some extensive new creation narrative based on silences in the text. This is referring to seed-bearing plants for cultivating and the eating of fruit. God had created the vegetation in Gen. 1, but man's job was to cultivate the land and make it fruitful. Thus, the "garden" that Adam was formed in was barren so that he could be used to cultivate the ground and create a fruitful place to dwell and eat. There is no need to create alternative creation scenarios with people being born out of the sea and out of the land, etc.

Well, well... IF you are going to argue about my post, then, have the courtesy or decency to show the entire contexts of the quotes that your are disputing....
and not edit them to suit your style of fallacious argument.

Also, please stop accusing me doing “piecemealing passages together and tearing them out of their context”..... What I am doing is called...
Providing Scriptural Proof Texts that are in harmony together... supporting all the assertions... I am making in all of my posts....

In my estimation, you are taking specific verses from Hebrews that are intending to show that Jesus is greater than the angels and using them to create some strange new creation scenario and the formation of a hypothesis that YHWH is different from the Father. That is not the intent of the texts in Hebrews, so I do not buy your claim that these are "proof texts" for your ideas since they have nothing to do with what you are talking about. The point is to show that Jesus is greater than the Law of Moses, and not what you are claiming they teach.

[SIZE=10pt]The Son was at the bosom of the Father from the beginning, from everlasting. before the [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]MAKING[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of our physical world.[/SIZE]

The Son became "the Son" when he was born as a human being and was confirmed to be such as his baptism and most importantly at his resurrection. Prior to that he existed as "the Word" who was "with God" and "was God."

[SIZE=10pt]He was “[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]BROUGHT FORTH[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt](meaning - cause to exist or begotten [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]) ... through the power of the Father’s logo... Into our physical world....[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Becoming the FIRSTBORN of every Creature. [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Col 1:15[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt])[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]...[/SIZE]

This sentence does not make sense to me. You claim that the Son dwelled in the bosom of the Father, but then was "caused to exist" (your definition of brought forth) through the power of the Father's logos (logos is singular in the Greek for "word" not "logo"...just FYI). This implies that Jesus/the Word did not exist prior to that point. Yet you claim he did. Are you saying he didn't exist in that form, or didn't exist as a distinct personality (and later became some sort of emanation from the Father? Im trying to understand here). So you need to clarify here because your language is contradictory here. Im sure you understand what you are trying to say, but the language here is simply not adding up. Maybe try rephrasing this?

[SIZE=10pt]He was brought forth into this physical world in the beginning... NOT as a Human being[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. But as the burning True Light in Heaven ([/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]John 1:9[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt])... which is brighter than a noon day sun. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]However, the Son has a lot of physical form.... He also took the form of a[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] WORM[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] at one time but not like you, though... [/SIZE]

John 1:9 is referring to the birth of Jesus as a human. It has nothing to do with the Son being brought into existence in Genesis 1:1.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Psa 2:7[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]I will declare the decree: the LORD [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt](the Father)[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] hath said unto me[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] (YHWH, the Son), [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Thou [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]art[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] my Son; this day have I begotten thee[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Notice: The Speaker of the cited text above during the [/SIZE]Old Testament.[SIZE=12pt].... was the Son, himself... describing what was told of him by his Father.[/SIZE]

Psalm 2:7 is quoted in the NT referring to the ministry and resurrection of Jesus. In Jesus' ministry and resurrection we see the confirmation and declaration of the Father that Jesus was indeed the Son of God. This is clearly how the NT writers understood this text, not some preincarnate begetting of Jesus (cf. Rom 1:4; Acts 13:33; Heb. 5:4-5).

[SIZE=10.5pt]Heb1:6[/SIZE] [SIZE=18pt]AND AGAIN[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt], he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.[/SIZE]

Yes, all the angels of God came to worship the divine man, Jesus, after his resurrection...and continue to do so, as will we all. cf. Rev. 5:9-14; Phil. 2:9-11.

 

[4Pillars]

LOL .... ..... Oh well, I guess you just have to hold on to your understanding of the same.​

​

The others can read and study it for themselves.​

​

GOD BLESS....​

 

[4Pillars]

Genesis 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers
to the events of God's 6 Creative Days. That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts agree totally and in detail.
What is amazing is that God wrote our History more than 3,000 years ago, and the events at the end of the 6th Day are still happening right now. IOW, God told the complete story of the Creation in Genesis 1 and beginning at Gen 2:4, we begin to learn the details of the events of Genesis 1.

Here’s how Adam was Physically FORMED by the Hands of YHWH, the Son of God.... on the 3rd Day ... becoming a Natural Living Soul

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

The 1st Firmament called Heaven, was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 . This verse is speaking of heavensS being made in the SAME day as the Earth. The 1st Earth was made on the 3rd Day. Gen 1:9 The ONLY Day the Earth and the other Heavens could have been made was the 3rd Day.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth,
and [there was] not a man to till the ground.

This verse continues to identify the 3rd Day. The plants and herbs were made on the 3rd Day. Gen 1:11-12

Why is it so important for the 3rd Day to be identified. Read the next verses.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

As you should clearly see, Adam was made on the 3rd Day Before the plants, herbs, and rain.

Once you understand this, you will see that mankind has preeminence or first place among all other living creatures. It is also in agreement with the events of the 6th Day when the LORD
made the animals from the dust and brought them to Adam to be named by him. Notice that Adam was ALONE at the beginning of the 6th Day. Gen 2:18

Note: Adam and Eve were CREATED SPIRITUALLY... at the same time... on the 6th Day of Creation... or during Seth' generation

1Cor 15:45-46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Of course, Christ is the source of quickening spirit.... the 2nd Man from heaven..... not the last Adam.... as others would like you to believe.

My own conclusion... Not everybody is Created in the image and likeness of God... unless one is "Born Again" spiritually... certainly, not Cain.

God Bless.

 

[4Pillars]

[SIZE=12pt]In the Day[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], Adam and his generations were Created spiritually in the image and likeness of God - who is a Holy Spirit - both A&E have already committed their “original sins”; [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]sent out of the garden of Eden; Cain had already killed Abel; and the event took place during the Seth’ generations; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]and only after Man began to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26) ...[/SIZE]and repent.

[SIZE=12pt]Gen 5:1-3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v1[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]is[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the book of the generations of Adam[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In the day[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in the day when they were created.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]v3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]a son[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in his own likeness, after his image; [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and called his name Seth[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]:[/SIZE]

Of course, Cain, who was a Murderer and a Liar from the beginning could NOT have been an image or likeness of God.

Note: Adam and Eve are the 1st couple to be Born Again Spiritually in Christ, the express image of the invisible Godhead, bodily.

God Bless

[SIZE=12pt]Isa 42:16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And I will bring the blind by a way [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]that[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] they knew not; I will lead them in paths [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]that[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]and crooked things straight. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.[/SIZE]