Who's Winning: Adam Or Christ?

[bud02]

You do realize Romans 5 doesn't say there wasn't sin, just that it wasn't imputed, right? You do realize that?

And you do realize knowledge of sin by law doesn't negate sin pre-existing the law, right? You do realize that?

Thats not what Paul says.
[sup]14[/sup] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

[sup]17[/sup] For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
[sup]18[/sup] Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

And to your second statement

Romans 7:7
[sup]7[/sup] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.

In other words would God condemn us for covetousness before He told us it was a sin. How can He or anyone condemn someone of a crime that has no definition of being a crime.

Romans 5:20-21
[sup]20[/sup] Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, [sup]21[/sup] so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[ahigherway]

Hi bud and others!

I acknowledge that "sin was in the world but not imputed" before the Law came. I also acknowledge that "death reigned over all, including those who didn't sin as Adam did."

My question is: If God has made mankind to inherit Adam's death and condemnation, why wouldn't He also make mankind inherit Christ's Life and Justification?

There had to be a "plan" that God had for making Adam's condemnation pass to all humanity. If God IS love, then there must be a better explanation than that God "lets us choose Him." Especially in light of the fact that man cannot come to Jesus "unless the Father draws him." God knows how blind man is, and sometimes He blinds man on purpose!!
So what's the deal here anyway??

Why would God leave His own creatures to chance?? Why would He use parables and visions and mysteries if our salvation depends on our own personal choices?

I can't see how it is "just" to condemn all mankind. -Not unless God's plan was to turn mankind's "mandatory" condemnation into "mandatory" justification.

Blessings,
brian

 

[TexUs]

Thats not what Paul says.
[sup]14[/sup] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Your other verses are worthless support for what you're saying, but I will concede this one. New day I guess and looking at it differently, but yes: I do see what you're saying from this verse.

HOWEVER- that now said... There is a key phrase here. Rendered differently in different translations but, "according to the LIKENESS", "not LIKE those", "in the LIKENESS", "after the SIMILTUDE".

You note, this doesn't say there was no sin. It says there was no sin like that of Adams. So this even being your best verse for the support of it, it still doesn't support what you're trying to say.

My question is: If God has made mankind to inherit Adam's death and condemnation, why wouldn't He also make mankind inherit Christ's Life and Justification?

Really, as I've said, "ask him". We don't have an answer for why he doesn't make all of mankind inherit Christ's blood.
I can only speculate that... It's for his glory.

Why would God leave His own creatures to chance?? Why would He use parables and visions and mysteries if our salvation depends on our own personal choices?

They're mysteries to everyone that can't see, sure. The Bible tells us that the message of Christ is foolish to the world, it sound stupid, makes no sense.
Unless God opens your eyes to see it: it certainly is.

I can't see how it is "just" to condemn all mankind.

If he didn't, he would be breaking his own law of, "The punishment of sin is death".

The question left that you're asking is, "Why wasn't the payment of Christ's death extended to all individuals", and again, refer to my prior answer. We don't know.

 

[bud02]

Hi bud and others!

I acknowledge that "sin was in the world but not imputed" before the Law came. I also acknowledge that "death reigned over all, including those who didn't sin as Adam did."

My question is: If God has made mankind to inherit Adam's death and condemnation, why wouldn't He also make mankind inherit Christ's Life and Justification?

There had to be a "plan" that God had for making Adam's condemnation pass to all humanity. If God IS love, then there must be a better explanation than that God "lets us choose Him." Especially in light of the fact that man cannot come to Jesus "unless the Father draws him." God knows how blind man is, and sometimes He blinds man on purpose!!
So what's the deal here anyway??

Why would God leave His own creatures to chance?? Why would He use parables and visions and mysteries if our salvation depends on our own personal choices?

I can't see how it is "just" to condemn all mankind. -Not unless God's plan was to turn mankind's "mandatory" condemnation into "mandatory" justification.

Blessings,
brian

The parables are the best example I can give you. Your question is the same as asking why doesn't the farmer also harvest the tares into his barn along with the wheat?
Answer tares are poisonous, toxic, they cause you to be like you are drunk, but yet look just like wheat, you can only tell the difference when they are mature.

It is no longer a conditional curse of death threw Adams one sin, If you carefully read my post we are now individually responsible since the 10 commandments were given by Gods hand. The unconditional curse to all men for Adams one sin no longer applies. All have sinned and fallen short Romans 3:23 . Why? because of the 10 commandments. Abraham said to Isaac.

Gen 22:8
[sup]8[/sup] And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

So that in that offering "Jesus" all men would be justified by faith
Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[ahigherway]

Hi Bud and TexUs,

I think the foundation we need to remember, is that God is Love. Man's love is sometimes very selfish, and sometimes sets conditions: "I love you as long as you..." This is typical of man's love.
But God's Love is divine. It isn't interested in itself, but in the betterment of others. The notion of God sending people to a place with flames and demons for eternity goes way back to old pagan religions, where people thought they needed to "appease" an angry Diety. But the God of Isaac, Abraham and Jacob shows us a different love. His love sets me free while they are sinners.

I was thinking last night about Job. Job thought he was righteous and without fault. He declared that God was unjust with him.
But he repented in ashes (fire brings forth ashes) when God confronted him with his sin.
And I think this is what "Judgement Day" is all about. God confronts man, and shows man His glory. And when man sees this glory, he is humbled and brought low. In that moment, God lifts him up again.
Another explanation of this process is in Psalm 107. It gives us several examples of how God works in man, to bring him low in order that he may be exalted. It's beautiful. I'll post it here (KJV):
"[sup]1[/sup] O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. [sup]2[/sup] Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

[sup]3[/sup] And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

[sup]4[/sup] They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in.

[sup]5[/sup] Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.

[sup]6[/sup] Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.

[sup]7[/sup] And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.

[sup]8[/sup] Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

[sup]9[/sup] For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.

[sup]10[/sup] Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;

[sup]11[/sup] Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:

[sup]12[/sup] Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.

[sup]13[/sup] Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.

[sup]14[/sup] He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.

[sup]15[/sup] Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

[sup]16[/sup] For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.

[sup]17[/sup] Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.

[sup]18[/sup] Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.

[sup]19[/sup] Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.

[sup]20[/sup] He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

[sup]21[/sup] Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

[sup]22[/sup] And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.

[sup]23[/sup] They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;

[sup]24[/sup] These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.

[sup]25[/sup] For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.

[sup]26[/sup] They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.

[sup]27[/sup] They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.

[sup]28[/sup] Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.

[sup]29[/sup] He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.

[sup]30[/sup] Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.

[sup]31[/sup] Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

[sup]32[/sup] Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders.

[sup]33[/sup] He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground;

[sup]34[/sup] A fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein.

[sup]35[/sup] He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings.

[sup]36[/sup] And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation;

[sup]37[/sup] And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase.

[sup]38[/sup] He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease.

[sup]39[/sup] Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow.

[sup]40[/sup] He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.

[sup]41[/sup] Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.

[sup]42[/sup] The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.

[sup]43 [/sup]Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD."




This is how God works with man in order to bring him around right.




Blessings,

brian

 

[jiggyfly]

Isaiah 55
[sup]11[/sup] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Excellent scripture Bud2.

Here's a question to everyone. Does the above scripture apply to all of God's words or only some and if only some which ones?

 

[ahigherway]

Excellent scripture Bud2.

Here's a question to everyone. Does the above scripture apply to all of God's words or only some and if only some which ones?

NOW we're talking!!
Yes, God does ALL His good pleasure. And His good pleasure was to send His Son as Savior of the world! Amen?

Blessings,
brian

 

[Vengle53]

Hello brothers and sisters,

Please permit me through your graciousness to interject my simple thinking.

The thing that saves us is grace.

However, grace is understood differently by different people. That does not mean that God's grace works different for different people.

An effect of sin on us which we all need to be aware of is that sin tends to cause us to lean to extremes.

As a result of that tendency toward extremes, many have concluded that because it is God's grace that saves us we have nothing mandatory to seek to correct or perfect in our lives.

On the other extreme there are those who emphasize our works as so important that they unwittingly allow no room for the operation of grace. And they usually become critical in a hypocritical way that then tends to add to the reasons that those on the extreme believe they are right. Conversely, the seeming lack of concern for God's commandments by those who are on the other extreme bolsters the belief of those who push works to such an extreme that they forget about grace. It is those on this extreme that often end up subtly even unknown to themselves believing that they are saving themselves.

So, for that reason, please permit me to present another way to look at God's grace:

Let us say that the real life as God intended it to be is like riding a bicycle the way it is properly to be rode.

You could say to a child, "No, I will not let you try to learn to ride that bicycle as you have tried once and made a wreck of it." That would be like what the Law written against the weakness in man's flesh.

But grace instead says to the child, "I will be patient with you and be there for you to catch if you begin to fall, if only you will trust in me and begin to try, really try, as best you can, while not giving up and continually trying to do better."

Grace has made itself available to us if we are willing to try and work at doing life better, patterning ourselves after the model of Jesus and those mature Biblical fathers of the faith, the apostles, who demonstrated to us what one is like who has matured to pattern their life after the example of Christ.

It is so simple that it is like helping a child learning to ride a bicycle.

One might say, "You cannot punish a kid and make him want to learn to ride a bicycle if he purely does not want to." Well, perhaps not for over a bicycle but over things more important to life, that ought to not be turned into a guiding principle. It could be that if he first rides out of fear he will find out that he likes it. Thus it is God puts consequences in front of us for ignoring him.

God is not deviating from love in the way he handles things. Even the necessity of destruction of some, is for the sake of those that love him.

In a sense: Proverbs 21:18 "The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright."

 

[ahigherway]

Hello brothers and sisters,

Please permit me through your graciousness to interject my simple thinking.

The thing that saves us is grace.

However, grace is understood differently by different people. That does not mean that God's grace works different for different people.

An effect of sin on us which we all need to be aware of is that sin tends to cause us to lean to extremes.

As a result of that tendency toward extremes, many have concluded that because it is God's grace that saves us we have nothing mandatory to seek to correct or perfect in our lives.

On the other extreme there are those who emphasize our works as so important that they unwittingly allow no room for the operation of grace. And they usually become critical in a hypocritical way that then tends to add to the reasons that those on the extreme believe they are right. Conversely, the seeming lack of concern for God's commandments by those who are on the other extreme bolsters the belief of those who push works to such an extreme that they forget about grace. It is those on this extreme that often end up subtly even unknown to themselves believing that they are saving themselves.

So, for that reason, please permit me to present another way to look at God's grace:

Let us say that the real life as God intended it to be is like riding a bicycle the way it is properly to be rode.

You could say to a child, "No, I will not let you try to learn to ride that bicycle as you have tried once and made a wreck of it." That would be like what the Law written against the weakness in man's flesh.

But grace instead says to the child, "I will be patient with you and be there for you to catch if you begin to fall, if only you will trust in me and begin to try, really try, as best you can, while not giving up and continually trying to do better."

Grace has made itself available to us if we are willing to try and work at doing life better, patterning ourselves after the model of Jesus and those mature Biblical fathers of the faith, the apostles, who demonstrated to us what one is like who has matured to pattern their life after the example of Christ.

It is so simple that it is like helping a child learning to ride a bicycle.

One might say, "You cannot punish a kid and make him want to learn to ride a bicycle if he purely does not want to." Well, perhaps not for over a bicycle but over things more important to life, that ought to not be turned into a guiding principle. It could be that if he first rides out of fear he will find out that he likes it. Thus it is God puts consequences in front of us for ignoring him.

God is not deviating from love in the way he handles things. Even the necessity of destruction of some, is for the sake of those that love him.

In a sense: Proverbs 21:18 "The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright."

Hi walkingingrace,
I agree with you that extremes of POV can lead off track.
At the same time, we're talking about the Creator of the entire Universe, and I don't see how man's "free will" can "withstand" God's immense Love. In fact, I think it's precisely God's glorious Presence which converts the sinner--- if not in this world, in the next.

Of course, anything is possible. But precisely because everything is possible with God, that I believe that He is able to convert His own creatures. I just don't see how that is a "difficult" thing for Him to do.
Now some will say that God doesn't "force" Himself on anyone. But then they contradict themselves because they say that God will send people to "hell" against their wills.
So God indeed does do things against our wills. And I think it's better that He does. For all our sakes..

"What do we have, that hasn't been given to us?"

Blessings,
brian

 

[Vengle53]

Hi walkingingrace,
I agree with you that extremes of POV can lead off track.
At the same time, we're talking about the Creator of the entire Universe, and I don't see how man's "free will" can "withstand" God's immense Love. In fact, I think it's precisely God's glorious Presence which converts the sinner--- if not in this world, in the next.

Of course, anything is possible. But precisely because everything is possible with God, that I believe that He is able to convert His own creatures. I just don't see how that is a "difficult" thing for Him to do.
Now some will say that God doesn't "force" Himself on anyone. But then they contradict themselves because they say that God will send people to "hell" against their wills.
So God indeed does do things against our wills. And I think it's better that He does. For all our sakes..

"What do we have, that hasn't been given to us?"

Blessings,
brian

That thought is so very beautiful.

But I cannot help but remember that Satan has been in the glorious presence of God for who knows how long and it has not moved him to repent.

I too dearly hate thinking that any human might also be that way.

Some even believe God will reclaim Satan for the reasons you express.

 

[ahigherway]

That thought is so very beautiful.

But I cannot help but remember that Satan has been in the glorious presence of God for who knows how long and it has not moved him to repent.

I too dearly hate thinking that any human might also be that way.

Some even believe God will reclaim Satan for the reasons you express.

Yes, I know there are some who declare that satan will be saved. I don't know if I accept this idea or not.

Here too, with God everything is possible, so I can't say that He "can't do it." I also see that there was not always "enmity" between the woman and the serpent, but only after Adam partook of the Tree of Knowledge.

But I guess it isn't too important to me right now. I feel like I have my hands full just sharing with other Christians how much God loves everybody, not just them!

--It even got me banned from a couple of "Christian" sites recently.. Tell people that Jesus is the Savior of the world, and you get banned! Go figure...! :blink:

Blessings!
Brian

 

[TexUs]

At the same time, we're talking about the Creator of the entire Universe, and I don't see how man's "free will" can "withstand" God's immense Love. In fact, I think it's precisely God's glorious Presence which converts the sinner--- if not in this world, in the next.

It seems like you'd then agree that God is selective in showing his love to people... Obviously he doesn't show his love to all, or all would be saved.
It also seems that you'd agree that when he does so, you'll always run to him... Us in Calvinist circles call this Irresistible Grace.


You've just got to tie the dots together now. But I believe it'll still boil down for you to, "Why doesn't he simply show his love to all people and save them"- again- we don't know.
You seem to be seeking an answer which nobody but God could answer. All I can tell you is how we've been told it works.

Now some will say that God doesn't "force" Himself on anyone. But then they contradict themselves because they say that God will send people to "hell" against their wills.

But those people ARE choosing hell by their sin.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Yes, I know there are some who declare that satan will be saved. I don't know if I accept this idea or not.

I don't. It's clear he's thrown into the lake of fire.
It's also clear from scripture that the angels (and fallen angels, aka, demons) don't understand our salvation. It's clear what we are offered- is not what they are offered. Satan is a fallen angel.


Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

 

[Vengle53]

Yes, I know there are some who declare that satan will be saved. I don't know if I accept this idea or not.

Here too, with God everything is possible, so I can't say that He "can't do it." I also see that there was not always "enmity" between the woman and the serpent, but only after Adam partook of the Tree of Knowledge.

But I guess it isn't too important to me right now. I feel like I have my hands full just sharing with other Christians how much God loves everybody, not just them!

--It even got me banned from a couple of "Christian" sites recently.. Tell people that Jesus is the Savior of the world, and you get banned! Go figure...! :blink:

Blessings!
Brian

I strongly suspect that for God to pardon those like Satan and Adam who willfully and in full knowledge of the choice they are making, sin, it would be like setting a precedent for others to take lightly doing the same thing.

1 Timothy 2:14a "And Adam was not deceived ..." And neither was Satan. They made a conscious choice to see another way as better than the way that God had outlined for them.

So then, what about those to who Jesus said, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. ..."? (John 8:44a)

I believe these ones do sin after the similitude of Adam. Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

I believe that common sense says then that some of us do sin "after the similitude of Adam's trangression."

I won't discuss it at length here, at least for now, but in the life of David we are enabled to see a clear picture of the type of sins God will and will not forgive. We are enabled to know that just as there is a sin that is "not unto [unpardonable] death", "there is a sin unto [unpardonable] death." (1 John 5:16)

 

[Disciple]

Are you asking whether God or the devil is winning? If you are, pshh, God by far the devil has lost her power when Christ rose from the dead and defeated death.. And the devil bows down to God..

 

[TexUs]

Are you asking whether God or the devil is winning? If you are, pshh, God by far the devil has lost her power when Christ rose from the dead and defeated death.. And the devil bows down to God..

You act like the devil had any real power to start with, he never did, look at Job 1.

 

[tomwebster]

You act like the devil had any real power to start with, he never did, look at Job 1.

He had enough charm to lead one third of Gods children astray.

 

[TexUs]

He had enough charm to lead one third of Gods children astray.

That's only if you go past what the Bible says regarding "stars of heaven" and read your own personalized interpretation into it.

 

[Disciple]

And God had the power to reconcile us back to him.

 

[ahigherway]

Doesn't scripture say that when Christ died, we died with Him? And when He rose, we rose with Him?

If Adam's sin affected all, then how many did Christ's obedience affect? :huh:

Blessings,
brian

 

[Disciple]

Christ is winning for sure!