Why am I not a Christian?

[Matthias]

That's fair point. You very well could be right about that.

You’re a thinking man but you’re presently in the atheist’s camp, and the atheist’s camp is the camp of Satan.

But he has all of these human traits. Fits of rage, jealousy, etc...

Jesus is the exact image of his God and Father. The same Jesus whom you’re gnashing your teeth against in anger now.

Carlin took the path that leads to destruction. Was he wise or foolish? He’s in the grave now, awaiting the judgement.

 

[Riven]

You’re a thinking man but you’re presently in the atheist’s camp, and the atheist’s camp is the camp of Satan.

Well...agnostic atheist, perhaps. Full on atheism is a little too hardcore for me.

Jesus is the exact image of his God and Father. The same Jesus whom you’re gnashing your teeth against in anger now.

Turn the other cheek? Love thy neighbor? The God of the OT was a little more like the Viking god Odin than gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I'm not saying they aren't one in the same, but I do think they have different methods.

Carlin took the path that leads to destruction. Was he wise or foolish? He’s in the grave now, awaiting the judgement.

Well, if you're right, everyone that's ever lived and died is in the grave.

 

[Matthias]

Well...agnostic atheist, perhaps. Full on atheism is a little too hardcore for me.

There’s room in Satan’s camp for both.

Turn the other cheek? Love thy neighbor? The God of the OT was a little more like the Viking god Odin than gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I'm not saying they aren't one in the same ...

They aren’t one in the same. Jesus is the untarnished image of the God of the Old Testament. You stopped reading about Jesus too soon and it sounds like you haven’t read what his God says about himself in the Old Testament.

... but I do think they have different methods.

They don’t.

Well, if you're right, everyone that's ever lived and died is in the grave.

That’s essentially right. (The Messiah lived and died. He isn’t in the grave.) But they aren’t going to stay there.

 

[Riven]

There’s room in Satan’s camp for both.

And what of Satan? What's his role in all this? Does he truly just wish to take as many human souls with him as possible? Why do you think he rebelled against God?

They aren’t one in the same. Jesus is the untarnished image of the God of the Old Testament. You stopped reading about Jesus too soon and it sounds like you haven’t read what his God says about himself in the Old Testament.

Possibly. However, if they're not one in the same, then why do so many Christians say that Jesus is God, as if they are one in the same?

They don’t [have different methods].

Could have fooled me. When did Jesus flood the entire world or tell his followers to wage war on another tribe? He seemed to be all about love and peace when he was here on earth. He did get testy with the Pharisees though. So there's that.

 

[Matthias]

And what of Satan? What's his role in all this?

You don’t know what his role in all of this is?

Does he truly just wish to take as many human souls with him as possible? Why do you think he rebelled against God?

How is it that you know that he rebelled but you don’t know what his role in all of this is?

Possibly. However, if they're not one in the same then why do so many Christians say that Jesus is God, as if they are one in the same?

The answer is found in post-biblical church history. It’s a form of unitarianism.

Could have fooled me.

You have been fooled; by others and by yourself.

When did Jesus flood the entire world or tell his followers to wage war on another tribe?

He hasn’t. His God has.

He seemed to be all about love and peace when he was here on earth.

It sounds like you have a hippie image of Jesus in your mind. You wouldn’t if you had read and remembered the prophesies about him in the Hebrew Bible and the portions of the New Testament which speak about him following his ascension into heaven.

You’re making a life and death decision based on misunderstanding and incomplete information.

He did get testy with the Pharisees though. So there's that.

 

[Riven]

You don’t know what his role in all of this is?

Perhaps I do. But I was curious about your thoughts on the matter.

The answer is found in post-biblical church history. It’s a form of unitarianism.

Ah, I see.

You have been fooled; by others and by yourself.

I could say the same about you.

It sounds like you have a hippie image of Jesus in your mind. You wouldn’t if you had read and remembered the prophesies about him in the Hebrew Bible and the portions of the New Testament which speak about him following his ascension into heaven.

You’re making a life and death decision based on misunderstanding and incomplete information.

Fair enough. What would you recommend I do?

 

[Matthias]

Perhaps I do. But I was curious about your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks. I’m fishing and you’re nibbling.

I could say the same about you.

Of course you could, and worse if you wanted to.

My position is based on the understanding of scripture from the perspective of a Jewish monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. (Which the atheist refers to as my “fringe faith” and has repeatedly said he‘s not interested in. That’s helpful.)

Your position is based on the rejection of scripture.

Fair enough. What would you recommend I do?

I recommended that you examine the evidence forensically. I don’t think I need to remind you what your response was to that. I don’t have any other recommendation to offer you at this time.

 

[OreCove]

simply not being able to believe in something

Don't believe in what others offering (including from me), but find by yourself what or Who can be God. You are honest. It is His trait. You might just can't force yourself to believe in nonsense. But, you still need to take a step to believe that God’s alive around you and inside you, not in the Bible or in the past. God is Reality, here and now. Reality has God's influence for the Universe and us. Listen and you will be wise, ignore and you will be destroyed.... If not you than in later generations (descendants). But in general, this relates to the whole society. If one will be wise, but others won't, he still will suffer. Sorry, I included myself to your conversation.

 

[OreCove]

I still don't like being govern ultimatums by divine beings though.

God who I know is not like that. His voice is very quiet and meek. You can hear Him only if you shouted down your loud ideas and beliefs. Big part of the Bible is a fairytale. If you are honest with yourself, you can hear Him. Don't try to find inside of you biblical god. Look for the source of your honesty, unobtrusive voice of Reason.

 

[OreCove]

And what of Satan? What's his role in all this?

You don't need to believe what is not real. Satan is the symbol of instinctive nature. No magic creatures in Reality. Reality is real, He is God.

 

[Matthias]

O to be in your shoes again @Riven. An exciting place to be, but fraught with peril.

You aren’t yet properly equipped to safely navigate the course.

Read widely. Read deeply.

Read thoughtfully. (Your strength).

Read critically. (Your strength).

Beware the Pied Piper.

 

[ProDeo]

But you didn't know at the time. You were simply afraid and didn't want to go to hell. It is true, I don't know what the truth is. I only know that I don't know yet. Maybe someday that will change.


What makes you think anyone can be saved through fear? Do you really believe the nature of your conversion won't be brought to your attention by the Lord when you face Him?

Time for my favorite poem again.

Heaven’s Surprise

I was shocked, confused, bewildered as I entered Heaven’s door,
Not by the beauty of it all, nor the lights or its decor.

But it was the folks in Heaven who made me sputter and gasp
The thieves, the liars, the sinners, the alcoholics and the trash.

There stood the kid from seventh grade who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor who never said anything nice.

Herb, who I always thought was rotting away in Hell,
Was sitting pretty on cloud nine, looking incredibly well.

I nudged Jesus, ‘What’s the deal? I would love to hear your take.
How’d all these sinners get up here? God must’ve made a mistake.

And why’s everyone so quiet, so somber – give me a clue.
Hush, child,’ He said, ‘they’re all in shock.
No one thought they’d be seeing you.

 

[ProDeo]

If there is a God, I refuse to believe he is anything like what we read in the bible. Especially the Old Testament. Commanding the Israelites to dash the babies heads against the rocks, among other things.

It's NOT God who commands it.

Let's check...

Ps 137:1 By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion.
Ps 137:2 On the willows there we hung up our lyres.
Ps 137:3 For there our captors required of us songs, and our tormentors, mirth, saying, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
Ps 137:4 How shall we sing the LORD's song in a foreign land?
Ps 137:5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill!
Ps 137:6 Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth, if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy!
Ps 137:7 Remember, O LORD, against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, “Lay it bare, lay it bare, down to its foundations!”
Ps 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us!
Ps 137:9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

It's about the Babylon exile, Jews asking God for revenge.