Why did God...

[face2face]

Well you have provided a much more detailed account of the history, to Christianize Asia. Quite interesting. So what does that say about God's plan and purpose for Asia. Why did Asia eventually settle with other religions and philosophies? I cannot tell.

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I tend to think these nations will be critical to the growth of the gospel in the Millennial age. We are already seeing the West being overtaken in converts in India, South Africa & South East Asia. As the Lord aptly put it... The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few (Matthew 9:37-39).

Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

Soon Apak soon!

 

[Stash]

The lesson here I believe is, God is showing us the power of repentance
Through the blood of Jesus.

Repent and your sins are washed away
If God could forgive Paul then there is hope for all of us

 

[quietthinker]

You certainly have a way with words. Yes, God is involved in His Creation...He forms light and creates darkness - do you know Him?

I believe in the God of whom the brother of Jesus says;

James 1:17-18
'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.'

....and his other mate John, who also heard the voice from the cloud tell them who to listen to;
1 John 1:5

'This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.'

 

[gordon7]

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord Acts 9:1

Why did God not bring about his conversion earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death?

F2F

What did all men do, but threats and murder, before conversion of the Holy Ghost.

Did it matter that the law was first, ( not of faith/sentencing men to death who broke the law) to witness the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ upon all them that believe. ( FOR ALL HAD SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD)

To declare AT THIS TIME, His righteousness, that He might be JUST, the JUSTIFIER of him which BELIEVES IN JESUS.

Notice we were under tutors, ( THE LAW) and were UNDER BONDAGE to the elements of the world. ( BUT WHEN THE FULNESS OF THE TIME WAS COME) God SENT HIS SON, to REDEEM them that WERE under the law. ( of eye for eye, killing for killing) that we might RECEIVE adoption of sons.

Paul did what all men did in the law and what all did from the beginning, to not believe in God ( which is only through the only who knows Him/the Son) to threaten, to kill, to hate. All had to wait for thousands of years, until THE FULNESS OF THE TIME WAS COME FOR GOD TO SEND HIS SON...



Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Galatians 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

 

[gordon7]

Paul is not an example for earthly man to see a man that can change, Paul is an example of belief in Jesus Christ risen, there is no other name ( LIVING NAME) to believe in thread talkers..


Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[JBO]

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord Acts 9:1

Why did God not bring about his conversion earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death?

F2F

You might as well ask why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. According to so many, the reason that all men sin is because Adam and Eve ate the fruit from that tree, so then all the evil that Saul committed before his conversion was ultimately because of that cussed tree of knowledge that God put in the Garden. First it is not true that we sin because of Adam. We sin because we freely choose to disobey God just as Adam did. We do what we want, not what God wants.

The more basic question is why God permits any evil to exist in this world at all. There have been books and books written on that subject and it won't be settled here. I would simply say that it is not about evil per se; rather it is about free will choice. The entire purpose of this creation was and is God's wanting to establish a kingdom of those who, through faith not established fact, freely choose to love Him. God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God (Rom 8:28). And that is the reason that God did not bring about the conversion of Saul earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death. It was key to God's purpose and plan for His creation. We may not understand why and how that can be; we only need to know and understand that it is.

 

[APAK]

Paul is not an example for earthly man to see a man that can change, Paul is an example of belief in Jesus Christ risen, there is no other name ( LIVING NAME) to believe in thread talkers..


Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Great perspective and understanding in the influence and power of the Spirit within one's life. People are transformed from the earthly carnal life into the eternal holy life of God, indeed.

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord Acts 9:1

Why did God not bring about his conversion earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death?

F2F

Who are you mere man to question God??

 

[face2face]

I believe in the God of whom the brother of Jesus says;

James 1:17-18
'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.'

....and his other mate John, who also heard the voice from the cloud tell them who to listen to;
1 John 1:5

'This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.'

All very true quiet but you missing something.

 

[face2face]

Who are you mere man to question God??

He invites it...surely you know this?

 

[face2face]

You might as well ask why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden.

Good question JBO - and you know why right? He placed a consequence there so He could apply a judgement and sentence.

According to so many, the reason that all men sin is because Adam and Eve ate the fruit from that tree, so then all the evil that Saul committed before his conversion was ultimately because of that cussed tree of knowledge that God put in the Garden. First it is not true that we sin because of Adam. We sin because we freely choose to disobey God just as Adam did. We do what we want, not what God wants.

Agree.

The more basic question is why God permits any evil to exist in this world at all.

I like where you are going with this!

There have been books and books written on that subject and it won't be settled here. I would simply say that it is not about evil per se; rather it is about free will choice. The entire purpose of this creation was and is God's wanting to establish a kingdom of those who, through faith not established fact, freely choose to love Him. God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God (Rom 8:28). And that is the reason that God did not bring about the conversion of Saul earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death. It was key to God's purpose and plan for His creation. We may not understand why and how that can be; we only need to know and understand that it is.

Couldn't agree more! Great post!

F2F

 

[face2face]

I believe in the God of whom the brother of Jesus says;

James 1:17-18
'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.'

....and his other mate John, who also heard the voice from the cloud tell them who to listen to;
1 John 1:5

'This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.'

Correct there is no darkness in God though he makes it...forms it.

Please explain?

Isaiah 45:7 is the passage in view.

Also consider how God did this with Saul to Paul and the many benefits already mentioned in this thread.

 

[Stumpmaster]

First it is not true that we sin because of Adam.

But it is true that we were made sinners because of Adam's disobedience. There is a symmetry of cause and effect in play as this verse explains:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

 

[face2face]

Notice the introduction of this story?

"YET" & "BUT" depending on your translation

It connects the narrative with the circumstances of Acts 8:1-3. While Philip was laboring in Samaria and Gaza, and the gospel spreading throughout the countryside, Saul was devoted to its destroying it.

He had already secured the dispersion of the church (v. 2), the death of the brethren (Acts 26:10), and extended his activities beyond Judea Acts 26:11. He had zealously dedicated himself to destroying the new sect in a most outrageous and determined manner.

If ever you wanted to opposing forces, in two chapters, this certainly is a case in point.

"I create light, I form (shape) darkness"

Imagine if you will, both Chapters written from the Heavenly perspective outlining all the events, the sending of angels, the maneuvering of circumstances so each part works perfectly in order. What of the three visions - vision within visions? What of the fact that Ananias a long standing disciple from Damascus was a not so willing servant, but heeded his Lords command to go. If ever we wanted to SEE how God shapes darkness (evil) and brings out of it light, these two chapters are exemplary.

 

[face2face]

Continuing this theme of God working with the sinful affairs of men we see "light from heaven" flashing around the dark mind of a man full of evil.

Light shone all around Saul with such dazzling brilliance that it completely blotted out the midday sun. In contrast, when the Lord Jesus was crucified by those of Saul's acquaintance, there came a cloud of thick darkness at about the same time of day: the "sixth hour" — Matthew 27:45

Behind both the light and darkness is an All Powerful God Who has perfectly revealed Himself as the Only God beside whom there is none other. No supernatural agent of evil, no fallen angel influencing the darkness - man is fully capable to do this on his own. It is God who shapes it for His Purpose because out of his great love He brings good (light) from evil (darkness)

Saul was being shown that there was a greater "Light" than the natural sun; and that would come through the One whose followers he was in process of destroying. The apostle later expounded the principle in words that seem to echo his experience on the road to Damascus:

"We all, with open face beholding... the glory of the Lord" (2 Cor. 3:18);

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them... God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give
the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as per Acts 4:4, 6

Though never seeing the Christ face to face the memory of this even never left Paul as he recites it 3 times in the Acts of the Apostles.

Once the enlightened mind perceives the wonders of God in His Creation all we can do is stand in awe and praise Him for every good and perfect gift comes from above as a fellow member said in this thread. Neither is there any shadow of turning in his brightness toward us.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Correct there is no darkness in God though he makes it...forms it.

Please explain?

Isaiah 45:7 is the passage in view.

Also consider how God did this with Saul to Paul and the many benefits already mentioned in this thread.

Isaiah's view on this matter was wrong as was the view that many of the Prophets held of God. Now before you get your knickers in a knot, I will say this; it wasn't until Jesus arrived on the scene that these views of God were corrected. It is recorded that Jesus said several times, 'you have heard said but I say unto you....' In this approach, he was correcting long held views that were incorrect.

Inspiration does not mean being flawless. Examples might be Jonah or Elijah or Moses. It was for this reason those on the Mountain with Jesus where Moses and Elijah appeared with him, were told to listen to Jesus. Jesus is the defining authority.

If we do not see it this way what results are blatant contradictions in 'the word of God' as many like to call it, when in fact the Word of God was the living walking talking Saviour.

 

[face2face]

Isaiah's view on this matter was wrong as was the view that many of the Prophets held of God.

I'm not surprised to be honest. Truth can be a bitter pill to swallow for some.

"I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things" Isaiah 45:7

It's God speaking and its a verse full of truth.

By the way Quiet when the Word states "This is what the Lord says..." this is from God Himself and not some random thought from an old Prophet!!

As we are looking at Acts 9... Isaiah 44 & 45 is all about direction, namely God's direction of things in His Creation!

God directs the restoration of Jerusalem Isaiah 44:24–28
God’s direction of Cyrus proves he is God Isaiah 45:1–8
God’s sovereignty should remove all doubts Isaiah 45:9–13

Now you have shown your will to question God's Sovereignty which now we will correct with good solid Bible reading

God plans to use Cyrus to defeat nations Isaiah 45:1
God goes before and destroys all his opposition Isaiah 45:2–3
God did this for a reason 45:3–4
God acts so that all people know he is God 45:5–7
God calls for a response of righteousness 45:8

It is the red text which you have said is wrong teaching by Isaiah - correct?

Now if you were to read Isaiah 44:24 you would see he taught the people that God is the one “who formed [yôṣēr] you (Israel)” but he “forms [yôṣēr] the light” and creates the darkness.

It's clear from your theological position that your God is not Sovereign over His Creation. However the Prophet Isaiah understands that He is. The good times that bring peace, prosperity, and well-being are controlled by God and so are the terrible times when war, calamity, natural disasters, and death come upon people.

God claims that he is the power and the director who “does, makes” all these things happen.

Whether its Cyrus, or Saul, everything that happens in the world is connected to God’s activity, whether it appears to be good or bad. It all works together to fulfill God’s purposes, even if people do not understand or accept these things as the work of God.

The God who you believe in does not exist Quiet because you have man-made teachings of a god made in your own image and after your own likeness.

It's rather possible, you will ignore this reply and return with more false accusations against God's own Word and His Prophets, but know this, the One true God might not be He whom you want to obey or worship...he might disappoint you in many ways leaving you with no other option than to walk away.

If you have an ounce of integrity you will deal with the text - show how God does not do these things otherwise move onto other threads that itch your ears.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

I'm not surprised to be honest. Truth can be a bitter pill to swallow for some.

"I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things" Isaiah 45:7

It's God speaking and its a verse full of truth.

By the way Quiet when the Word states "This is what the Lord says..." this is from God Himself and not some random thought from an old Prophet!!

As we are looking at Acts 9... Isaiah 44 & 45 is all about direction, namely God's direction of things in His Creation!

God directs the restoration of Jerusalem Isaiah 44:24–28
God’s direction of Cyrus proves he is God Isaiah 45:1–8
God’s sovereignty should remove all doubts Isaiah 45:9–13

Now you have shown your will to question God's Sovereignty which now we will correct with good solid Bible reading

God plans to use Cyrus to defeat nations Isaiah 45:1
God goes before and destroys all his opposition Isaiah 45:2–3
God did this for a reason 45:3–4
God acts so that all people know he is God 45:5–7
God calls for a response of righteousness 45:8

It is the red text which you have said is wrong teaching by Isaiah - correct?

Now if you were to read Isaiah 44:24 you would see he taught the people that God is the one “who formed [yôṣēr] you (Israel)” but he “forms [yôṣēr] the light” and creates the darkness.

It's clear from your theological position that your God is not Sovereign over His Creation. However the Prophet Isaiah understands that He is. The good times that bring peace, prosperity, and well-being are controlled by God and so are the terrible times when war, calamity, natural disasters, and death come upon people.

God claims that he is the power and the director who “does, makes” all these things happen.

Whether its Cyrus, or Saul, everything that happens in the world is connected to God’s activity, whether it appears to be good or bad. It all works together to fulfill God’s purposes, even if people do not understand or accept these things as the work of God.

The God who you believe in does not exist Quiet because you have man-made teachings of a god made in your own image and after your own likeness.

It's rather possible, you will ignore this reply and return with more false accusations against God's own Word and His Prophets, but know this, the One true God might not be He whom you want to obey or worship...he might disappoint you in many ways leaving you with no other option than to walk away.

If you have an ounce of integrity you will deal with the text - show how God does not do these things otherwise move onto other threads that itch your ears.

F2F

God's sovereignty is no doubt different to how you understand his sovereignty.
Jesus is the manifestation of God's Sovereignty and it is not exercised in a way how Man perceives control. (Sovereignty)

If we sideline Jesus in understanding any aspect of God and rely on our fallen imagination of how God operates we inevitably arrive at a faulty conclusion.

Now to the Prophets but first let me ask you this, do you ever feel God has spoken to you so that you feel convinced it was God who has revealed something? Many from this site speak in those terms, yet how right are they?

Elijah prayed and fire consumed his sacrifice. Does that mean that God is now beholden to other decisions Elijah makes? I don't think so. Elijah decided in wholesale slaughter of the Priests of Baal entirely off his own back; God never told him to engage that sort of behaviour. He ended up running for his life. No doubt the PTSD he subsequently suffered also undermined his trust and confidence in God to further protect him.

Jonah thought that God would be appeased if the Sailors through him into the raging sea and he drowned but God would have none of that mindset and provided a rescue in the form of a fish....kinda unconventional wouldn't you say?

Isaiah influenced by the Persian philosophies prevalent surrounding Ahura Mazda their God, adopted the Yin/Yang understanding of God. Again, Jesus and his disciples nullify that view of God.

We need to know that our labelling of the scriptures as 'the infallible word of God' is our labelling, not God's.

A little research into the cultural norms and thinking as it developed through the Hebrew's changing history; the captivities they endured and were influenced by and the practices they pursued including the human sacrifices they offered at various stages of their history including what and how they recorded events does not make God beholden to their changing perspectives.

To reiterate; Jesus is the only eye witness of the Father. It is Jesus who defines what Sovereignty and Truth looks like; dismiss this and surely the gardening path will lead you along many a merry diversion.

 

[gordon7]

Continuing this theme of God working with the sinful affairs of men we see "light from heaven" flashing around the dark mind of a man full of evil.

Light shone all around Saul with such dazzling brilliance that it completely blotted out the midday sun. In contrast, when the Lord Jesus was crucified by those of Saul's acquaintance, there came a cloud of thick darkness at about the same time of day: the "sixth hour" — Matthew 27:45

Behind both the light and darkness is an All Powerful God Who has perfectly revealed Himself as the Only God beside whom there is none other. No supernatural agent of evil, no fallen angel influencing the darkness - man is fully capable to do this on his own. It is God who shapes it for His Purpose because out of his great love He brings good (light) from evil (darkness)

Saul was being shown that there was a greater "Light" than the natural sun; and that would come through the One whose followers he was in process of destroying. The apostle later expounded the principle in words that seem to echo his experience on the road to Damascus:

"We all, with open face beholding... the glory of the Lord" (2 Cor. 3:18);

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them... God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give
the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as per Acts 4:4, 6

Though never seeing the Christ face to face the memory of this even never left Paul as he recites it 3 times in the Acts of the Apostles.

Once the enlightened mind perceives the wonders of God in His Creation all we can do is stand in awe and praise Him for every good and perfect gift comes from above as a fellow member said in this thread. Neither is there any shadow of turning in his brightness toward us.

F2F

We are unable to see light from heaven. ( the light shines in darkness and the darkness comprehends/understands, it not.)

But the word was made flesh, and in Him ( the Word) was LIFE, and the life WAS THE LIGHT, of men.

Jesus testified He is the LIGHT of the world, and they who FOLLOW HIM, ( believe in Him) shall not walk in darkness, but shall then have ( Him) the light of life.

All things were delivered to the Son by the Father, and no man knows the Father nor the Son but who the Son REVEALS Him to...



John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.



The gospel ( the Word) preached of the apostle Paul, was not after man.

Not taught it ( by man) but by the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

Paul we heard persecuted the church of God, but it PLEASED GOD, when the time came to CALL HIM BY HIS GRACE. To REVEAL HIS SON IN HIM...


Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.




Only the Son of God has immortality, dwelling in the LIGHT, which NO MAN CAN APPROACH, no man has SEEN, nor CAN SEE.

Made MANIFEST, by the APPEARING of our Saviour Jesus Christ, abolished DEATH, and has brought LIFE AND IMMORTALITY TO ,LIGHT, through the GOSPEL...



1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[JBO]

But it is true that we were made sinners because of Adam's disobedience. There is a symmetry of cause and effect in play as this verse explains:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

Like so many, you fail to understand what Paul was saying in that verse or in the entire passage of Romans 5:12-19. In verse 19 you clearly interpret the "many" that were made sinners by Adam's disobedience to be the entire human race. And though in verse 15 Paul says that the effect (grace) of Jesus' obedience was much more efficacious, you categorically deny it. You refuse to accept the plain truth that in verse 19, Paul says that "as by the disobedience of Adam all of humanity was made sinners, so also by the obedience of Jesus all of humanity was made righteous".

The question you should be asking is how that can be. Is Paul teaching the universal salvation of all humanity? No, clearly Paul is teaching no such thing, since that would be a complete rejection of the whole rest of God's word. It is important to see that Paul was directly comparing the effect of Jesus' obedience and the effect of Adam's disobedience. Thus we accept the fact that the effect of Adam's disobedience was only attributed to "the many" at birth (or prior to birth if you like) not at some time later in life. So also then we must understand that Paul is speaking of the effect of Jesus' disobedience is also to be attributed to "the many" at birth and not at some time later in life.

What the entire passage of Romans 5:12-19 is teaching us is that the effect of Jesus' obedience negated the effect of Adam's disobedience. The "original sin" imposed by Adam's sin was completely set aside by Jesus' obedience. So instead of "original sin" being imposed upon mankind at birth; rather it is "original grace" being imposed upon all mankind at birth. The spirits formed in man (Zech 12:1) are not dead in trespasses and sins, but rather are alive and well. And they remain alive until the individual commits trespasses and sins. It is only then and only due to his own trespasses and sins, not Adam's, that one's spirit becomes dead.

Thus the very first statement of that passage, namely verse 12, says death (spiritual death) spread to all men, not because Adam sinned but rather because they all sinned. The rest of the passage provides the details of just why that is.