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Stumpmaster

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Like so many, you fail to understand what Paul was saying in that verse or in the entire passage of Romans 5:12-19. In verse 19 you clearly interpret the "many" that were made sinners by Adam's disobedience to be the entire human race. And though in verse 15 Paul says that the effect (grace) of Jesus' obedience was much more efficacious, you categorically deny it. You refuse to accept the plain truth that in verse 19, Paul says that "as by the disobedience of Adam all of humanity was made sinners, so also by the obedience of Jesus all of humanity was made righteous".

The question you should be asking is how that can be. Is Paul teaching the universal salvation of all humanity? No, clearly Paul is teaching no such thing, since that would be a complete rejection of the whole rest of God's word. It is important to see that Paul was directly comparing the effect of Jesus' obedience and the effect of Adam's disobedience. Thus we accept the fact that the effect of Adam's disobedience was only attributed to "the many" at birth (or prior to birth if you like) not at some time later in life. So also then we must understand that Paul is speaking of the effect of Jesus' disobedience is also to be attributed to "the many" at birth and not at some time later in life.

What the entire passage of Romans 5:12-19 is teaching us is that the effect of Jesus' obedience negated the effect of Adam's disobedience. The "original sin" imposed by Adam's sin was completely set aside by Jesus' obedience. So instead of "original sin" being imposed upon mankind at birth; rather it is "original grace" being imposed upon all mankind at birth. The spirits formed in man (Zech 12:1) are not dead in trespasses and sins, but rather are alive and well. And they remain alive until the individual commits trespasses and sins. It is only then and only due to his own trespasses and sins, not Adam's, that one's spirit becomes dead.

Thus the very first statement of that passage, namely verse 12, says death (spiritual death) spread to all men, not because Adam sinned but rather because they all sinned. The rest of the passage provides the details of just why that is.
Ad hom response noted. FYI I have never been a Universalist.
 

gordon7

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What the entire passage of Romans 5:12-19 is teaching us is that the effect of Jesus' obedience negated the effect of Adam's disobedience. The "original sin" imposed by Adam's sin was completely set aside by Jesus' obedience. So instead of "original sin" being imposed upon mankind at birth; rather it is "original grace" being imposed upon all mankind at birth. The spirits formed in man (Zech 12:1) are not dead in trespasses and sins, but rather are alive and well. And they remain alive until the individual commits trespasses and sins. It is only then and only due to his own trespasses and sins, not Adam's, that one's spirit becomes dead.

Thus the very first statement of that passage, namely verse 12, says death (spiritual death) spread to all men, not because Adam sinned but rather because they all sinned. The rest of the passage provides the details of just why that is.
What Adam passed onto man was disobedience, that is why it is by the obedience of one that many are made alive.

Adam covered his transgressions. Our first father sinned and our teachers, ( in the law) transgressed against God. ( all were taught by disobedience)


Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Isaiah 43:27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.



Scripture continues, we were sometimes foolish and disobedient/deceived. ( under tutors until we escaped the elements of the world, God sending HIs Son to redeem them that were under the law, to receive adoption of sons.)

Christ made of a woman, found in fashion as a man, humbled Himself and became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross, God highly exalts Him by this to give the name which is ABOVE every name, to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father...



Galatians 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.




Continuing, this is the just one suffering for sins ( all the sins of all that are in Adam, from birth or after, makes no difference, all is unbelief.) to bring us to God, put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

He preached to the spirits in prison ( the prison house) who were disobedient, ( seen in the flood) and the answer of a good conscience saves us towards God, which is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

They who believe He is precious, but unto those who do not believe, they remain DISOBEDIENT ( ( IN ADAM)

They stumble at the Word, being DISOBEDIENT, whereunto they also were appointed...




1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.




Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
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quietthinker

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The belief in Original Sin is a form of universalism. Original Sin is the belief that God universally imputed Adam's sin to all mankind.
There was no imputation whatsoever.
Adam's sin affected him emotionally, spiritually and physically.....and somehow the whole created order. The breakdown which occurred has been passed down through the generations. Death is its final result.
 
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Ritajanice

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Did we all inherit sin from Adam and Eve?​

translate inherit sin, inherited sin
audio

ANSWER

Yes, all people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically from Adam. Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.
 

JBO

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Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 5:19 is speaking of the spiritual; 1 Corinthians 15:22 is speaking of the physical.

No matter what you believe is the reason for disobedience, it remains that disobedience is a choice.
 

JBO

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There was no imputation whatsoever.
Adam's sin affected him emotionally, spiritually and physically.....and somehow the whole created order. The breakdown which occurred has been passed down through the generations. Death is its final result.
The only thing that has been passed down from Adam is human nature. That is a tendency to sin. But the tendency to sin is not itself a sin. Spiritual death, not physical death, is the result of the sin of the individual, not the sin of Adam. Physical death is an integral feature of the creation.
 

JBO

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Did we all inherit sin from Adam and Eve?​

translate inherit sin, inherited sin
audio

ANSWER

Yes, all people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically from Adam. Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.
That is an absolute affront to God, Himself.

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Eze 18:5 "If a man is righteous and does what is just and right--
Eze 18:6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity,
Eze 18:7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:8 does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man,
Eze 18:9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully--he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 18:10 "If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things
Eze 18:11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife,
Eze 18:12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination,
Eze 18:13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
Eze 18:14 "Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise:
Eze 18:15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife,
Eze 18:16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:17 withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live.
Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Eze 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
 
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quietthinker

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The only thing that has been passed down from Adam is human nature. That is a tendency to sin. But the tendency to sin is not itself a sin. Spiritual death, not physical death, is the result of the sin of the individual, not the sin of Adam. Physical death is an integral feature of the creation.
Death is never a part of God's reality or the things he creates. Death is an enemy, an intruder.
Sin is also alien to God and what he creates.

James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 

JBO

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Death is never a part of God's reality or the things he creates. Death is an enemy, an intruder.
Sin is also alien to God and what he creates.
Death is an integral part of the entire physical creation. Nothing physical has been made eternal.
James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It is the desire of each person that conceives and gives birth to sin, not Adam's.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

If it is appointed for man to die once, then how is that death destroyed? Clearly it is not physical death that is destroyed since all will die physically. The last enemy is spiritual death, not physical death.
 

quietthinker

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Death is an integral part of the entire physical creation. Nothing physical has been made eternal.

It is the desire of each person that conceives and gives birth to sin, not Adam's.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

If it is appointed for man to die once, then how is that death destroyed? Clearly it is not physical death that is destroyed since all will die physically. The last enemy is spiritual death, not physical death.
Death is death. If one chooses to engage fancy footwork to alter or deny this, the world's your oyster as far as deceptions go.
Wasn't it the serpent who said, 'you shall not surely die'?....the lie that the religions of the World have embraced and use as the premise for their philosophies.
 
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JBO

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Death is death. If one chooses to engage fancy footwork to alter or deny this, the world's your oyster as far as deceptions go.
Wasn't it the serpent who said, 'you shall not surely die'?....the lie that the religions of the World have embraced and use as the premise for their philosophies.
But they did die spiritually the instant they disobeyed even if they didn't die physically for many, many years after disobeying. In fact they didn't die physically because they ate from the forbidden tree. Rather, they died physically because they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life. In fact, the reason they were ejected from the garden was so they would not have such access (Gen 3:22).

That is not engaging in fancy footwork, that is simply following what is recorded.
 
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face2face

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God's sovereignty is no doubt different to how you understand his sovereignty.
You failed to enter Isaiah 45 and explain how Isaiah & God were wrong in verse 7.
If you are unable to enter the Word of God what point is there having a discussion?
F2F
 

face2face

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Death is never a part of God's reality or the things he creates. Death is an enemy, an intruder.
Sin is also alien to God and what he creates.

James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
But you believe sin is in His Heavenly Realm?
Your belief makes a mockery of Matt 6:10.
 
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quietthinker

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You failed to enter Isaiah 45 and explain how Isaiah & God were wrong in verse 7.
If you are unable to enter the Word of God what point is there having a discussion?
F2F
It's addressed. You just haven't seen/noticed it even though it's in your face.
 
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quietthinker

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But you believe sin is in His Heavenly Realm?
You belief makes a mockery of Matt 6:10.
You do come up with inaccurate conclusions about others(me)....and then you attempt build your case. I would say that defines lack of self honesty and delusion!
 
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face2face

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It's addressed. You just haven't seen/noticed it even though it's in your face.
No, its your typical avoidance, which I have seen time and time again. You are shown truth and it falls through your fingers. Go back and see your reply. You make an accusation that the prophet Isaiah (and God Himself) are in error then proceed to say "only God knows His Sovereignty", like Doh, the question is whether you do? Go figure, you hurl stones at the text then proceed to state the obvious. Sad part is you are blind to it.
 

face2face

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You do come up with inaccurate conclusions about others(me)....and then you attempt build your case. I would say that defines lack of self honesty and delusion!
You believe in fallen angel theology, so many posts confirm this...now you are stuck like a rock in a hard place because you quote a passage in James which teaches you only human nature can sin...and you believe divine nature can also...so where does that leave you? You have defiled your reward and you have a irreconcilable belief.

Tough spot to be in.

F2F