Why Did Jesus Have to Die?

[Lizbeth]

Fully concur, now what I want you to do is use the Scriptures on every point you made.

J.

Amen.

We are to bring our thoughts CAPTIVE to the obedience of Christ...the living Word, and the bible also says "do not go beyond what is written". That is our place of safety....His sheepfold as I think of it, to keep us from wandering astray and blowing around with every wind....this way He hems us in behind and before if we keep our thoughts and beliefs pinned/captive/submitted to His word.

 

[quietthinker]

Totally agree. The reason He suffered was because of the hatred of satan and men. But Calvary wasn't essential for our redemption. Without Calvary, Jesus could have walked up to the temple on the day of Passover, climbed onto the altar and died... fallen asleep... given up His life. And He would have fulfilled all the law just as much as history records the actual events. The suffering, the abuse, the humiliation, the accusations of defiling the Sabbath, of being possessed of a devil, was basically all Satan, and him using those he could control and influence. He did so in attempt to cause Jesus to sin... give up... use a miracle in revenge or spite... show His glory to defend Himself... in other words, fail His mission.

I think it would be good to bear in mind that throughout history, Satan has continued to use that same tactic against Christ's Church, and as his time becomes shorter, he will intensify those attacks. As scripture says, he will make war with the saints. And who will be use to do his bidding? The church.

There is much I could say re your post here BL. However, it will suffice that I comment on one item of your post, the underlined, 'show his glory to defend himself'
This might surprise you; Jesus did show his glory on Calvary's cross and it did defend him. It verified the nature of God and rather than fail in his mission it revealed it. It revealed that God would rather die than kill. It revealed that when one walks in holiness, one becomes a target. It revealed that the adversary is a liar to the whole watching universe/ multiverse
It revealed God's affection for his creatures even at their worst; Yes, it revealed his glory like nothing else could have done.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Jesus Christ came into the world, a world He had co-created with His Father. But, the world did not recognize Him. Instead, He was deemed to be worthy of death. Why did Jesus allow Himself to be treated in this way?

Good morning Episkopos, After prayer, we discussed what you are saying, We think GOD planned to bring us to Him because He was bruised for our iniquities. Isaiah 53:1-12 KJV

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus Christ came into the world, a world He had co-created with His Father. But, the world did not recognize Him. Instead, He was deemed to be worthy of death. Why did Jesus allow Himself to be treated in this way?

Why did Jesus allow Himself to be treated this way? For the joy set before Him, He endured the cross. Paul speaks of that their joy be made full.
Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. <who fills that description best?!

Romans 5:6-11 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. [8] But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet (ungodly)sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

He died to reveal something foreign to the ways of this world (Imo).

 

[Simonides]

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[Simonides]

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[pepper]

This is a lie from the pit of Hell and we know who the father of lies is-but then, character assassination is normative on this Forum.

J.

You pegged them just right. I see you've read them before.

 

[quietthinker]

I think you may be correct about Calvary, though I suspect there will be others who vehemently disagree with you. Christ could have done just as you suggested, and laid his sinless body down upon the altar, and still accomplished His mission.

Satan's claim was that God was selfish. Everything God wanted he made with a word. The only way Satan could be disproven was to allow men and devils to throw their worst at him. If God was selfish he would surely retaliate in some violent form .....so God humbles himself and becomes a man so that we, his fallen children, could see his nature first hand .

Jesus' life and particularly his death was a revelation to us ....and the Universe, of the character of God. Lying down on an altar and dying or as Bakelite has said in post #37, 'fallen asleep'. This would never have cut it let alone accomplish his mission.
It was necessary that Jesus be tortured beyond normal human endurance and the devil made sure of it. There was no other reason that Jesus died. God does not need death or blood for anything. It is men who need blood. It gives them a sense of power to subdue an enemy.

 

[pepper]

Satan's claim was that God was selfish. Everything God wanted he made with a word. The only way Satan could be disproven was to allow men and devils to throw their worst at him. If God was selfish he would surely retaliate in some violent form .....so God humbles himself and becomes a man so that we, his fallen children, could see his nature first hand .

Jesus' life and particularly his death was a revelation to us ....and the Universe, of the character of God. Lying down on an altar and dying or as Bakelite has said in post #37, 'fallen asleep'. This would never have cut it let alone accomplish his mission.
It was necessary that Jesus be tortured beyond normal human endurance and the devil made sure of it. There was no other reason that Jesus died. God does not need death or blood for anything. It is men who need blood. It gives them a sense of power to subdue an enemy.

That, is not what God says.

If that were true God would not have redeemed us through torture,blood,and death. And we would not be Saved by believing it true. But He did. And we are.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 1 - New English Translation

Introduction to the Sacrificial Regulations - Then the LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Meeting Tent: “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘When someone among you presents an offering to the LORD, you must present your offering from the domesticated animals, either from the herd...

www.biblegateway.com

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.​

In Genesis we learned Cains sacrifices were not enough. God was not pleased. While Abel his brother killed animals in sacrifice and that pleased God.

God ordained sacrifices be done in the OT.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

What Does the Bible Say About Blood Sacrifice Pleases God?

Bible verses about Blood Sacrifice Pleases God

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About God Ordained Sacrifice?

Bible verses about God Ordained Sacrifice

www.openbible.info

 

[quietthinker]

That, is not what God says.

If that were true God would not have redeemed us through torture,blood,and death. And we would not be Saved by believing it true. But He did. And we are.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 1 - New English Translation

Introduction to the Sacrificial Regulations - Then the LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Meeting Tent: “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘When someone among you presents an offering to the LORD, you must present your offering from the domesticated animals, either from the herd...

www.biblegateway.com

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.​

In Genesis we learned Cains sacrifices were not enough. God was not pleased. While Abel his brother killed animals in sacrifice and that pleased God.

God ordained sacrifices be done in the OT.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

What Does the Bible Say About Blood Sacrifice Pleases God?

Bible verses about Blood Sacrifice Pleases God

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About God Ordained Sacrifice?

Bible verses about God Ordained Sacrifice

www.openbible.info

'Blood' ole mate, is representative of life, just as you quoted Leviticus 17:11. Jesus gave his life. He gave it, it was not taken from him.
He gave it willingly.

John 10:18
'No one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again.'

 

[pepper]

'Blood' ole mate, is representative of life, just as you quoted Leviticus 17:11. Jesus gave his life. He gave it, it was not taken from him.
He gave it willingly.

John 10:18
'No one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again.'

Right.

The blood is the life.

 

[Brakelite]

There is much I could say re your post here BL. However, it will suffice that I comment on one item of your post, the underlined, 'show his glory to defend himself'
This might surprise you; Jesus did show his glory on Calvary's cross and it did defend him. It verified the nature of God and rather than fail in his mission it revealed it. It revealed that God would rather die than kill. It revealed that when one walks in holiness, one becomes a target. It revealed that the adversary is a liar to the whole watching universe/ multiverse
It revealed God's affection for his creatures even at their worst; Yes, it revealed his glory like nothing else could have done.

That is true yes. Correct. I used the wrong word... usiing glory to defend Himself... glory in the context of character, inappropriate in the context I was coming from. Maybe i should have said power. He refused to use His power in order to defend Himself.
Your perspective reveals God vindicated in His dealings with man.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: Why Did JESUS Have To Die?

"For all have sinned, and come short of The Glory of God; Being Justified Freely By His GRACE​

Through The Redemption That Is In Christ Jesus: Whom God Hath Set Forth to be A Propitiation​

Through faith In His BLOOD..." (Romans 3:23-25 AV)​

Of course very few will ever understand God's Undiluted GRACE until they Also study and understand the other side of
the Complete Picture, Which Includes God's UNDILUTED WRATH! { 'link' = Undiluted Wrath and Undiluted Grace! }

Let us then learn this for better "sharing/preaching with the rest of the lost world ( God LOVES! )" who have "sinned
and come short of The GLORY Of God," eh?

Amen.

 

[pepper]

op: Why Did JESUS Have To Die?

"For all have sinned, and come short of The Glory of God; Being Justified Freely By His GRACE​

Through The Redemption That Is In Christ Jesus: Whom God Hath Set Forth to be A Propitiation​

Through faith In His BLOOD..." (Romans 3:23-25 AV)​

Of course very few will ever understand God's Undiluted GRACE until they Also study and understand the other side of
the Complete Picture, Which Includes God's UNDILUTED WRATH! { 'link' = Undiluted Wrath and Undiluted Grace! }

Let us then learn this for better "sharing/preaching with the rest of the lost world ( God LOVES! )" who have "sinned
and come short of The GLORY Of God," eh?

Amen.

View attachment 57361

Where there is no law there is no Sin.
Sin entered this world by one man,Adam. Because Sin pre-existed this world. Lucifer sinned in Heaven.

"Did God create Sin?"
Yes.

Romans 5:13 For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

This is a lie from the pit of Hell and we know who the father of lies is-but then, character assassination is normative on this Forum.

Of course those that are influenced by the calvinist cult think Justin Peters is a great guy

He is the one who created the Destroyer to work havoc....

No... it's true God created lucifer... but it's a lie to claim God's purpose in creating lucifer was for him to do evil.

Those that have actually studied this (rather than accepting what false teachers say about it) would know that lucifer perverted righteousness by choosing to be in opposition to God.... anybody that thinks God created evil does not know the Lord or His Word.

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Ezekiel 28:15 (speaking of lucifer)
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God created lucifer perfect... until lucifer decided to be in opposition to God:

Isaiah 14:13 (speaking of lucifer)
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Some folk don't allow what God's Word actually says to get in the way of what they believe

the Lord creates both good and evil.

Yeah, I've run in to people who think God and satan are the same guy... they don't understand the scriptures.

Jesus became sin for (by) us, not for (by) God.

So mankind... issued a mandate for Jesus to be born of a virgin and go to
the Cross as a ransom for out sins... and God had nothing to do with it?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

The fact of the matter is... the plan of salvation is all God's doing as HE is the One that gave Jesus for us.

If it hadn't been for God, we would all have gone to hell with zero way to do anything about it whatsoever

"For all have sinned, and come short of The Glory of God; Being Justified Freely By His GRACEThrough The Redemption That Is In Christ Jesus: Whom God Hath Set Forth to be A PropitiationThrough faith In His BLOOD..." (Romans 3:23-25 AV)

Great quote!

 

[Lizbeth]

No... it's true God created lucifer... but it's a lie to claim God's purpose in creating lucifer was for him to do evil.

Those that have actually studied this (rather than accepting what false teachers say about it) would know that lucifer perverted righteousness by choosing to be in opposition to God.... anybody that thinks God created evil does not know the Lord or His Word.

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Ezekiel 28:15 (speaking of lucifer)
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God created lucifer perfect... until lucifer decided to be in opposition to God:

Isaiah 14:13 (speaking of lucifer)
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Some folk don't allow what God's Word actually says to get in the way of what they believe

Yeah, I've run in to people who think God and satan are the same guy... they don't understand the scriptures.

Isa 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isa 45:6-7

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job 2:9-10

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.


How are we to understand this though? I believe God's sovereignty in this world involves His foreknowledge and fore-planning according to that foreknowledge. Mankind often suffers the "natural consequences" of his sins, the curses that follow sin.....but it is the Lord who allows or disallows things and has power and sovereignty over it all and He uses it for the good of those who love Him, as well as to judge. All power belongs to Him.

 

[KUWN]

If there's anything about His atonement that troubles me, it would be His suffering. The suffering seems a bit excessive.

Heb 5.8
American Standard Version
though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;

 

[Simonides]

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[Dan Clarkston]

Isa 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Really bad translation... the KJV has some errors and this is one of them.

Ezekiel 28:15 (speaking of lucifer)
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:15 says the Lord created lucifer PERFECT and then later... iniquity was found in him.

So... which portion of scripture do you think is false?

Did God lie in James 1:13???

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

If it's true that God made lucifer to destroy meaning that was the purpose lucifer was created for... then James 1:13 is a lie, and Ezekiel 28:15 is a lie.... or, Isa 54:16 is an erroneous translation that claims God has evil in Him and He desires for evil to be upon mankind.

Those believing this are generating strife between themselves and the Lord by accusing Him of wrong doing and of being evil. I certainly wouldn't want to be that person on judgement day as they'll be going south not north!

But, due to satan's deception... many today believe lies about the Lord.

If God needed something destroyed (like when He destroyed the enemies of Israel in the OT), He has His own angels to do that.... satan and his demons are self employed, they do NOT work for the Lord

How are we to understand this though?

Let God's Word provide it's own commentary by seeing what He said about this all across His Word... and quit listening to the devil.

God did create all things... but because luficfer decided to rebel, some of the things God created became evil... this does NOT mean God created these things to be evil... if He did, then that makes Him evil... which is exactly what satan is trying to accomplish among people

Did you not see what Jesus said about the devil????

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Anything that kills... steals... or destroys... come from the devil.

One should ask themselves... did Jesus lie in John 10:10, or does Jesus actually know what He's talking about

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Mankind often suffers the "natural consequences" of his sins, the curses that follow sin.....but it is the Lord who allows or disallows things and has power and sovereignty over it all and He uses it for the good of those who love Him, as well as to judge. All power belongs to Him.

That's something the calvinist cult claims

They believe God doesn't just allow bad things... He causes bad things.

Such as when a child is sexually molested or raped... they believe God CAUSED THE CHILD TO BE RAPED

The calvinist cult is satanic and is designed to trick people into laying down and accepting evil as being of God and being the will of God for them.

This is a classic tactical maneuver we see in times of war and armed conflict between nations designed to generate confusion.... to attack the enemy in such a way where the enemy think it's not coming from them

This is exactly what satan is doing with this line of thinking that God is causing or allowing evil to happen... to get people to think God is doing it so they lay down in defeat.

Now, let's not confuse all this with seedtime and harvest... (Galatians 6:7-8) .... God built His entire creation upon sowing and reaping (see Mark 4:13-20 and carefully notice what Jesus says in verse 13)... so when we disobey Him we open the door to the devil to cause bad things... that's on us, not the Lord.

The key to understanding what happened to Job is when he admitted what he FEARED came upon him (Job 3:25). Job was SCARED his children would curse God and die... Job did the same sacrifice continually due to not being in faith and instead being in FEAR (Job 1:5) and being in fear rather than in faith is what caused the hedge of protection God had put around Job to be broken so satan could have access to his life to bring evil in.

Unless like the false teachers claim... God thought it would be funny to let satan attack Job. No, in God's sovereignty He decided to setup creation to function on seedtime harvest / sowing and reaping principle.... and in walking after the flesh (being in fear) Job reaped corruption which is how God's hedge opf protection was breached by satan

God tells us to choose life! He tells us to walk after the Spirit in agreement with Him... it's NOT actually His will for us to have evil stuff happen to us. God is GOOD... the devil is BAD