Why did Jesus pray to himself?

Grailhunter · Sunday at 8:57 AM

Because of the 3 in 1 person formula for the Trinity it has caused Christianity to be like that giant ball of twine. It has been that way a long time and out in the weather and it is difficult and painful to unravel.

His name is Yeshua.
He is the Son of Yahweh. Simple as that.
Yeshua did not beget Himself.
Yeshua did not pray to Himself.
Yeshua did not ascend to Himself.
Yeshua did not give authority to Himself.
Yeshua does not love Himself.
In Heaven Yeshua does on sit to the right of Himself.
Over 50 My Father scriptures.
The Godhead is called the Trinity and it is made up of 3 Gods, God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and the un-named God, the Holy Spirit. They are not one, and it is silly to promote this Catholic doctrine.
But there is a connection, and that is what we should be talking about. Not that we could ever define it. It is kinda like the Catholic when they tried to define the nature of God and compare Yahweh's and Yeshua's nature. We cannot comprehend such things. But it does not hurt to speculate as long as you keep it in that column.

Justified · Sunday at 9:30 AM

Grailhunter said:
The Godhead is called the Trinity and it is made up of 3 Gods, God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and the un-named God, the Holy Spirit.

That is not the Trinity, that is tritheism, which is unbiblical. From start to finish the Bible says there is only one God. Polytheism is heresy.

Grailhunter said:
They are not one, and it is silly to promote this Catholic doctrine.

They have to be one, there is no other option.

PS95 · Sunday at 9:42 AM

G

Grailhunter said:
Because of the 3 in 1 person formula for the Trinity it has caused Christianity to be like that giant ball of twine. It has been that way a long time and out in the weather and it is difficult and painful to unravel.

His name is Yeshua.
He is the Son of Yahweh. Simple as that.
Yeshua did not beget Himself.
Yeshua did not pray to Himself.
Yeshua did not ascend to Himself.
Yeshua did not give authority to Himself.
Yeshua does not love Himself.
In Heaven Yeshua does on sit to the right of Himself.
Over 50 My Father scriptures.
The Godhead is called the Trinity and it is made up of 3 Gods, God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and the un-named God, the Holy Spirit. They are not one, and it is silly to promote this Catholic doctrine.
But there is a connection, and that is what we should be talking about. Not that we could ever define it. It is kinda like the Catholic when they tried to define the nature of God and compare Yahweh's and Yeshua's nature. We cannot comprehend such things. But it does not hurt to speculate as long as you keep it in that column.

Hello GH-
I know that since you went to college you have changed your mind on several things. Tell me though - when you read these verses below, how do you reconcile them honestly? They mainly address who the Spirit is- as far as I can see it is very similar to what the trinity creed says but not quite. I don't pretend to have all of the answers to God's makeup. But 3 gods is a bit of a stretch. There is a oneness that can not be denied and it is not just in "agreement or purpose" IF we believe what is written. With an open mind--See what you think-? IMHO we should never try to fit God into a box.
----
2 Cor 3:15-18
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
-----
Romans 8
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
-------------
1 Cor 3:16
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
--------------
Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
----------------

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
--------------------
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
----------
John 14:16
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
-----------------------
1 Cor 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
---------------
If we accept all that scripture says- the Spirit of God is God and His Son and yet another helper-- who comes to live in us.
If that definable? Not really but the trinity is very close. It's hard to define God.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 10:34 AM

Justified said:
That is not the Trinity, that is tritheism, which is unbiblical. From start to finish the Bible says there is only one God. Polytheism is heresy.

They have to be one, there is no other option.

I quoted things that happened in the Bible. And the 3 in 1 formula skews the meaning of them and many more.
People like the hocus pocus of the 3 in 1 but it is not biblical.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 10:38 AM

PS95 said:
G

Hello GH-
I know that since you went to college you have changed your mind on several things. Tell me though - when you read these verses below, how do you reconcile them honestly? They mainly address who the Spirit is- as far as I can see it is very similar to what the trinity creed says but not quite. I don't pretend to have all of the answers to God's makeup. But 3 gods is a bit of a stretch. There is a oneness that can not be denied and it is not just in "agreement or purpose" IF we believe what is written. With an open mind--See what you think-? IMHO we should never try to fit God into a box.
----
2 Cor 3:15-18
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
-----
Romans 8
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
-------------
1 Cor 3:16
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
--------------
Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
----------------

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
--------------------
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
----------
John 14:16
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
-----------------------
1 Cor 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
---------------
If we accept all that scripture says- the Spirit of God is God and His Son and yet another helper-- who comes to live in us.
If that definable? Not really but the trinity is very close. It's hard to define God.

Read the storyline in Christ's ministry.
His name is Yeshua.
He is the Son of Yahweh. Simple as that.
Yeshua did not beget Himself.
Yeshua did not pray to Himself.
Yeshua did not ascend to Himself.
Yeshua did not give authority to Himself.
Yeshua does not love Himself.
In Heaven Yeshua does on sit to the right of Himself.
Over 50 My Father scriptures.
The Godhead is called the Trinity and it is made up of 3 Gods, God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and the un-named God, the Holy Spirit. They are not one, and it is silly to promote this Catholic doctrine.

Yeshua explained the oneness concept.
The New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the oneness concept. Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”.....So the "Oneness" is something that applies or will apply to all of us and we are not gods nor will we ever be gods.

MatthewG · Sunday at 10:40 AM

God is not hard to define. God is spirit, and God is love.

Nothing about God is three in one.

You do have God, God's Spoken Word and the Holy Spirit of God in the beginning.

Has nothing to do with trinity.

Takes faith to even believe God exist in the first place. Cause otherwise he doesnt exist to some people. If God is even real.

I believe in faith God is real, and is spirit and love.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 11:12 AM

These are the same debates they had during the Ecumenical Councils.
How many Gods, what was the difference between Father and Son, Who was senior and all the points I listed in post 101...etc. But Emperior Constanine insisted on one belief and the 3 in 1 doctrine was force upon Christianity upon pain of death or excommunication.
Either way we need to stop talking about it because it ticks off the mods.

NayborBear · Sunday at 11:57 AM

PS95 said:
G

Hello GH-
I know that since you went to college you have changed your mind on several things. Tell me though - when you read these verses below, how do you reconcile them honestly? They mainly address who the Spirit is- as far as I can see it is very similar to what the trinity creed says but not quite. I don't pretend to have all of the answers to God's makeup. But 3 gods is a bit of a stretch. There is a oneness that can not be denied and it is not just in "agreement or purpose" IF we believe what is written. With an open mind--See what you think-? IMHO we should never try to fit God into a box.
----
2 Cor 3:15-18
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
-----
Romans 8
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
-------------
1 Cor 3:16
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
--------------
Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
----------------

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
--------------------
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
----------
John 14:16
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
-----------------------
1 Cor 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
---------------
If we accept all that scripture says- the Spirit of God is God and His Son and yet another helper-- who comes to live in us.
If that definable? Not really but the trinity is very close. It's hard to define God.

I'll reply to you PS95, as GH becomes bored (very quickly it seems) at my "dull point/s."
WITHIN the "SPIRIT OF GOD" Which raised Jesus Christ of Nazareth aka Yeshua Messiah from the dead?
There IS a (how can I say) a "VAST GOVERNMENT!" That? Of the which? Yeshua Messiah "bares (holds up) on His shoulder!"
Yanno? "In My Father's HOUSE (Bethel in the O.T.) are MANY "mansions (places, and levels of ABIDANCE aka MENO."
Which IS? As a matter of fact?
INTRODUCES one TO this "VAST GOVERNMENT!"
So? If you BELIEVE that GOD IS?
Then? One is, or should be "BEHOOVED" that this "VAST GOVERNMENT" IS also!
Cuz? IT IS!
Yet?
1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

"If that definable? Not really but the trinity is very close. It's hard to define God."
I'd have to say concerning the Trinity?
That the usage of that "term?"
Is like the "Readers Digest," or "chat room short hand!"
Which "condenses the ESSENCE" OF the "Spirit of GOD,"
But? What you DON'T get?
Is the "FULLER PICTURE!"
Here's one man's discernment's of this "VAST GOVERNMENT." Which isn't bad!
The Divine Names and Titles. - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Fully? No!
But not too shabby either!

PS95 · Sunday at 12:01 PM

Grailhunter said:
Read the storyline in Christ's ministry.
His name is Yeshua.
He is the Son of Yahweh. Simple as that.
Yeshua did not beget Himself.
Yeshua did not pray to Himself.
Yeshua did not ascend to Himself.
Yeshua did not give authority to Himself.
Yeshua does not love Himself.
In Heaven Yeshua does on sit to the right of Himself.

You are making the mistake here of ignoring that the father and son are distinct persons.

Grailhunter said:
Over 50 My Father scriptures.
The Godhead is called the Trinity and it is made up of 3 Gods, God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and the un-named God, the Holy Spirit. They are not one, and it is silly to promote this Catholic doctrine.

Yeshua explained the oneness concept.
The New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the oneness concept. Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”.....So the "Oneness" is something that applies or will apply to all of us and we are not gods nor will we ever be gods.

You ignored the verses I gave you.
Good day GH- not gonna go through this all again with you. misrepresenting what Christians teach isn't wise.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 12:12 PM

PS95 said:
You are making the mistake here of ignoring that the father and son are distinct persons.

You ignored the verses I gave you.
Good day GH- not gonna go through this all again with you. misrepresenting what Christians teach isn't wise.

I have over a hundred verses for you, not to mention just common sense.
But you are right we need to end this conversation.

PS95 · Sunday at 12:15 PM

NayborBear said:
I'll reply to you PS95, as GH becomes bored (very quickly it seems) at my "dull point/s."
WITHIN the "SPIRIT OF GOD" Which raised Jesus Christ of Nazareth aka Yeshua Messiah from the dead?
There IS a (how can I say) a "VAST GOVERNMENT!" That? Of the which? Yeshua Messiah "bares (holds up) on His shoulder!"
Yanno? "In My Father's HOUSE (Bethel in the O.T.) are MANY "mansions (places, and levels of ABIDANCE aka MENO."
Which IS? As a matter of fact?
INTRODUCES one TO this "VAST GOVERNMENT!"
So? If you BELIEVE that GOD IS?
Then? One is, or should be "BEHOOVED" that this "VAST GOVERNMENT" IS also!
Cuz? IT IS!
Yet?
1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

"If that definable? Not really but the trinity is very close. It's hard to define God."
I'd have to say concerning the Trinity?
That the usage of that "term?"
Is like the "Readers Digest," or "chat room short hand!"
Which "condenses the ESSENCE" OF the "Spirit of GOD,"
But? What you DON'T get?
Is the "FULLER PICTURE!"
Here's one man's discernment's of this "VAST GOVERNMENT." Which isn't bad!
The Divine Names and Titles. - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Fully? No!
But not too shabby either!

I don't deny there is some sort of a trinity--Trin teaches though- that the Son is not the Spirit and Father is not the Spirit either. Yet scripture says the Lord is the Spirit. So I have to trust scripture.
The Holy Spirit lives in us. Christ lives in us Father lives in us. I see a oneness and a separateness too- but I can't deny that Paul also taught Lord is the Spirit.
And the eternally begotten part is a little hard for me.. I am not interested in debating this topic. I worship FS and HS. I leave the details alone.
I don't need to have God in a box. I don't think we can know it all. It's irrelevant to me. I'm not about to argue with you over this.

GH is off her rails since college. I have tried to show her some simple things but she refuses and spouts in circles. It's shame but I don't give platforms to the terribly divisive,. It does no good and causes more confusion for new people. So I am done here.

Hey listen I came out from a JW upbringing so I have looked at this from all angles. I'm ok with where I've come, but thanks.

MatthewG · Sunday at 12:19 PM

No point in even going into it.

??? Jesus wasn’t a person until the Word came down and was made flesh.

God is spirit. Idk how he is a person.

God has male and female traits he made man and woman in his own image.

God is love ultimately.

God, Gods Spoken Word and the Holy Spirit of God all existed in the beginning.

There are pictures and types in the Old Testament of Jesus who would come only when the Word was finally sent.

Just doesn’t seem to become a fleshly figured named Jesus until after the Word came down.

I don’t have any trouble with it anymore.

MatthewG · Sunday at 12:55 PM

The final scene ever mentioned concerning Jesus after His ascension is what He reveals to John in Revelation. In that vision, Jesus speaks to the people of that time, showing His authority and His submission to the Father. Paul also mentions this moment when he says that after all things are placed beneath Jesus’ feet, He will hand the kingdom back to God the Father — “that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24–28). This lines up with the scene in Revelation where Jesus says He will grant the Father to sit on His throne, showing the unity yet distinction between them. “The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it” (Revelation 22:1–3). There you see God, and His Word made flesh (John 1:14), sharing the throne — the Father as the ultimate authority, and Jesus joyfully submitted under Him.

What people choose to do with this information is unknown to me. Everyone has to decide what they believe about the relationship between the Father and the Son, and how these Scriptures fit together.

Jesus had to suffer and overcame sin, satan, death, and hell.

In order to sit on this throne.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 1:13 PM

PS95 said:
I don't deny there is some sort of a trinity--Trin teaches though- that the Son is not the Spirit and Father is not the Spirit either. Yet scripture says the Lord is the Spirit. So I have to trust scripture.
The Holy Spirit lives in us. Christ lives in us Father lives in us. I see a oneness and a separateness too- but I can't deny that Paul also taught Lord is the Spirit.
And the eternally begotten part is a little hard for me.. I am not interested in debating this topic. I worship FS and HS. I leave the details alone.
I don't need to have God in a box. I don't think we can know it all. It's irrelevant to me. I'm not about to argue with you over this.

GH is off her rails since college. I have tried to show her some simple things but she refuses and spouts in circles. It's shame but I don't give platforms to the terribly divisive,. It does no good and causes more confusion for new people. So I am done here.

Hey listen I came out from a JW upbringing so I have looked at this from all angles. I'm ok with where I've come, but thanks.

LOL Grailhunter....I am a guy.

Justified · Sunday at 3:03 PM

Grailhunter said:
I quoted things that happened in the Bible. And the 3 in 1 formula skews the meaning of them and many more.

None of the things you quoted show the Trinity is false. In fact, they can only be made sense of in light of the Trinity.

Grailhunter said:
People like the hocus pocus of the 3 in 1 but it is not biblical.

It has the best explanatory power of what God has revealed of himself in Scripture. What we absolutely cannot say is that there are three gods. Polytheism is soundly rejected throughout the entire Bible.

Justified · Sunday at 3:06 PM

MatthewG said:
God is not hard to define. God is spirit, and God is love.

Nothing about God is three in one.

You do have God, God's Spoken Word and the Holy Spirit of God in the beginning.

Has nothing to do with trinity.

Takes faith to even believe God exist in the first place. Cause otherwise he doesnt exist to some people. If God is even real.

I believe in faith God is real, and is spirit and love.

If God is love, then it necessarily follows that there is a multiplicity within the one God. Love cannot be love, much less an attribute of God, if there is only one "person." Love requires a subject and an object. Only the Trinity can account for this.

Grailhunter · Sunday at 3:09 PM

Justified said:
None of the things you quoted show the Trinity is false. In fact, they can only be made sense of in light of the Trinity.

Well that is a cope out.....You are not proving me wrong.
And I can say, nothing you say is true either.
It does not prove anything.
Let's drop the subject.

Justified · Sunday at 3:18 PM

Grailhunter said:
Well that is a cope out.....You are not proving me wrong.

What copout? I know I'm not proving you wrong; at this point I have only claimed that you're wrong. Would you like me to prove it?

We can look at the doctrine of the Trinity and why what you have stated doesn't go against it. We can also look at what the Bible states about how many Gods there are, to see that there is only one.

Grailhunter said:
And I can say, nothing you say is true either.
It does not prove anything.

You can say that, but you still have to provide evidence.

Grailhunter said:
Let's drop the subject.

Now that is a copout.

MatthewG · Sunday at 3:32 PM

Justified said:
If God is love, then it necessarily follows that there is a multiplicity within the one God. Love cannot be love, much less an attribute of God, if there is only one "person." Love requires a subject and an object. Only the Trinity can account for this.

I’m not really focused on debating the Trinity, brother.

I’m just trying to follow what Jesus taught: “Worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such people to worship Him” (John 4:23). That’s what matters to me.

God is love. It's not if. The bible clearly states God is love.

The answer to the question asked in the Original Post is that Jesus never prayed to himself.

NayborBear · Sunday at 3:48 PM

PS95 said:
And the eternally begotten part is a little hard for me..

It would be hard for myself as well PS95!

I believe I said "ONLY" begotten though!

And? If I didn't? I SHOULD have!

Also? If I did? I apologize!

Why did Jesus pray to himself?

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