Why do Catholics…

[GRACE ambassador]

Hey Grace,

There is not a single passage of Scripture that suggest it was symbolic. The Protestant Revolution started that lie. You left off the verses BEFORE that verse: “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Paul has a question for you: Is the cup of blessing which we bless not a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is the bread which we break not a sharing in the body of Christ? What is your answer to Paul?

Precious friend, I am Very Sorry for the previous condescending and rude posting.

I have posted my more fully Scriptural beliefs in a New thread.
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified!:

The LORD's Supper

...

 

[amigo de christo]

From what cup . Surely you dont mean the physical cup . Example . One may drink it from a glass
another from a porcelian cup , another from a golden cup . My best guess is THIS IS NOT at all what you mean .
I just dont drink it from the cups of false teachers .
Example . IF JOSEPH SMITH were alive today , DO YOU REALLY THINK i would do communion with HIM under HIS leadership .
NOPE .
SO why on earth would i do so with any other false leader . I WONT . WE need to get back into the bible for ourselves .
cause it aint just the mormons that have been decieved . It aint just the prosperity gospel money banking preachers
that decieve , THE CC does too . SO too did rick warren and so too does many within even the protestant realm .
Sad thing is both many within the protestant realm as well as those within the catholic realm are DRINKING from a dirty cistern .
Following the popes and pope francis . Folks have ZERO discernment today . WELL i should say most folks .
I dont take communion with those who preach and teach we should kneel down and pray to mary or saints either .
ITS TIME we have a serious discussion and a serious wake up call is in dire need .
I dont hate mormons , seven dayers , catholics , liberals , conservatives , emergent or etc . I DO HATE doctrines taught .
CAUSE it sucks the life out of all who go under it . MY LOVE IS FOR GOD , CHRIST and THE PEOPLES .
THAT ALONE IS WHY I WARN . I SURELY do not warn so as i can have me some love and followers .
MY warnings have isolated me from many . IF i loved to have a following , I WOULD LONG ago have abadoned the warnings
and started preaching the false love and unity . BUT NO . My love is for the peoples no matter the cost to me .

 

[Philip James]

From what cup . Surely you dont mean the physical cup . Example . One may drink it from a glass
another from a porcelian cup , another from a golden cup . My best guess is THIS IS NOT at all what you mean .

Hello amigo,

What I mean, is that in a valid celebration of the Eucharist we partake of the very Body and Blood of Christ which He gave to the apostles.
One cannot take just take this for oneslf and create their own 'communion'. It must be received from those who have the authority to give it, and is a participation in the community established by Christ through the apostles.. If you're not in communion with the apostolic community where are you?

Here's some more from St. Ignatius:

. 7:2 He that is within the sanctuary is clean; but he that is without the sanctuary is not clean, that is, he that doeth aught without the bishop and presbytery and deacons, this man is not clean in his conscience.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Trallians (Lightfoot translation)

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[amigo de christo]

Hello amigo,

What I mean, is that in a valid celebration of the Eucharist we partake of the very Body and Blood of Christ which He gave to the apostles.
One cannot take just take this for oneslf and create their own 'communion'. It must be received from those who have the authority to give it, and is a participation in the community established by Christ through the apostles.. If you're not in communion with the apostolic community where are you?

Here's some more from St. Ignatius:

. 7:2 He that is within the sanctuary is clean; but he that is without the sanctuary is not clean, that is, he that doeth aught without the bishop and presbytery and deacons, this man is not clean in his conscience.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Trallians (Lightfoot translation)

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Its the CC that is not in and no longer in traditoin with Christ and said apostels .
Any more than jospeh smith was .
Any believer in Christ can have communion with other believers . ITS NOT LIKE all the churches had to walk
to jerusalem and have it before peter and james or others .
SO LONG as one believes in CHRIST and follows HIM , YOU KNOW HIS TEACHINGS and the TEACHINGS of said apostels
THEY ought to have communion .
BUT , one thing is needed to be said . WOULD you have commuion under those who taught the muslim religoin as valid
OR would you have commuion under those who taught falsehoods .
exactly . I DONT have , nor will i have commuion with false teachers . THUS i dont keep it with the RCC my friend .
Nor with leaders who teach lies to the people . I dont take the cup of communion from the hands of those who are false .
NO ONE SHOULD . Even you would agree with that . THUS the only reason i wont take communion
with false leaders , IS CAUSE THEY FALSE . I wont and cannot sit at two tables . ITS CHRIST FOR ME MY FRIEND .
and anyone else who sits ONLY at the table of CHRIST and not two tables , IS free to have commuion with me .
YE cannot drink of the cup of A whore and of CHRIST . YE cannot mix the unholy with the holy and try and call it HOLY . IT DONT WORK .

 

[Philip James]

Its the CC that is not in and no longer in traditoin with Christ and said apostels .

I am sorry my friend, but you are not competant to make that judgenent.

However if Rome is your stumbling block, then come to the Feast with Alexandria, come with Constantinople.,. But Come!

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[amigo de christo]

I am sorry my friend, but you are not competant to make that judgenent.

However if Rome is your stumbling block, then come to the Feast with Alexandria, come with Constantinople.,. But Come!

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

I am able to make that statement . Just as anyone of us could make a statement .
Example . Are you going to tell me that you yourself cannot make a statement about how dangerous the mormon church is .
THUS if we see danger , WE OUGHT TO WARN folks . And praying to saints , to mary , to angels , WELL that is dire deadly to do so .
Pray TO GOD IN JESUS NAME .

 

[Philip James]

. And praying to saints , to mary , to angels , WELL that is dire deadly to do so .

Hello amigo,

Asking our righteous brothers and sisters to aid us with their prayers is deadly?

Only to the demons who seek to destroy us...

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Philip James]

I am able to make that statement . Just as anyone of us could make a statement .

Anyone can make a statement, but you have no authority in the Church and thus are not 'competant' to make such a judgement.

If you are not in communion with an apostolic community, where are you?

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.



They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.



Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

IF "your number is the roman mother church," I was in for 27 years. Now I
am "no longer of your number." Should I go back, or am I eternally damned?:

Why would I go back, IF:

1) The Preserved Word Of God Is The Final Authority for my faith and practice.
Not religion, not tradition, not magesterium; NONE of which are EQUAL/HIGHER
than God's Word! Why in the world would I "want to be like Satan," to be
equal/higher Than The Most High God???:

Psa 138:2 "I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise
Thy Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou
Hast MAGNIFIED Thy Word Above All THY NAME." ​

Why would I go back, IF:

2) I DO NOT want to be "puffed up one against another" by disobeying God?:

1Co 4:6 "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred
to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not
to think above

THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN,
​

that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."​

Why would I go back, IF:

3) I was ignorantly forced to be water baptized, when God's Authoritative
Word Teaches There Is Only ONE Baptism, Today, Under GRACE. It
Is not water, But It IS "By The ONE Spirit," (God's OPERATION)
Indentifying me, upon God's GRACE Through [my] faith, With The
ONE Body Of Christ, The ONE Man, Seated In Heaven!
............................... ↓ NOT equal ↑
Why would I go back? mother church believes none of These Words of God,
and FurtherMoreOver, I am now an "Eternal member of The ETERNAL
Body Of JESUS CHRIST, Who Is The Only Head Of His Church!"
Amen.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector

If we are not willing to submit to the mind of the Church, what does our non serviam do for us?

For "who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

We submit to a church only as lopng as that church is following Christ! As Paul wrote "Follow me as I follow Jesus". If a church no matter how old or how powerful or how populous it is veers from the clear teaching of Scripture- we are to resist that teaching at all costs.

 

[Philip James]

We submit to a church only as lopng as that church is following Christ!

The Church must always follow Christ as she has done for 2000 years..
.
Has the 'great reformation' come to this? Shopping for a church (or starting one!) based on ones own determination of the clear teaching of Scripture?

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Marymog]

Precious friend, I am Very Sorry for the previous condescending and rude posting.

I have posted my more fully Scriptural beliefs in a New thread.
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified!:

The LORD's Supper

...

Thanks Grace,

I don't see YOUR answer to Paul's question. I see you repeating another mans belief, but no answer to these two questions from Paul: Is the cup of blessing which we bless not a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is the bread which we break not a sharing in the body of Christ?

Since the question is rhetorical here is what it would look like if it wasn't: The cup of blessing which we bless IS a sharing of the blood of Christ. The bread which we break IS a sharing in the body of Christ.

Do you agree with Paul OR not?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

I do communion . I just dont drink of the cup of a harlot . I wish folks truly understood this .
Many are abandoning the true faith for a common ground unity with A harlot . It truly sadness my soul .
ALL i desire is good for the people .

Hey amigo,

When Jesus held up the bread at the Last Supper he said this IS my body; do this in remembrance of me. Paul said that communion is a participation in the body of Christ.

When you "do communion" in remembrance of Him and you are given that communion bread do you pretend it IS His body? After all He said it is his body and Paul said it is a participation in His body.

Curious Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

If the truth in said scriptures is not good enough to exhort the peoples and to draw folks to Christ .
THEN I TELL US all those people did not desire Christ and will not be drawn to CHRIST , but rather to another jesus .
IF i have to bring folks to church and keep folks in church by preaching wordly things , THEN rest assured
they will never know Christ. For we cannot bring the world to Christ by wordly means , nor can we grow in Christ by wordly means .
Its simply mans means for church growth . AND IT WILL NEVER WORK .
And though the churches will grow and grow quickly
NONE will know CHRIST . And the end of that
will be many fish cast out of the net .
IF we fish by wordly means , we catch only the world
and we draw them only to the darkness and not to CHRIST .
I PRAY TO GOD folks will start preaching BIBLE SOUND doctrine in those churches
and cease all the wordly allures and rather preach CHRIST and all bibical truth .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If the truth in said scriptures is not good enough to exhort the peoples and to draw folks to Christ .
THEN I TELL US all those people did not desire Christ and will not be drawn to CHRIST , but rather to another jesus .
IF i have to bring folks to church and keep folks in church by preaching wordly things , THEN rest assured
they will never know Christ. For we cannot bring the world to Christ by wordly means , nor can we grow in Christ by wordly means .
Its simply mans means for church growth . AND IT WILL NEVER WORK .
And though the churches will grow and grow quickly
NONE will know CHRIST . And the end of that
will be many fish cast out of the net .
IF we fish by wordly means , we catch only the world
and we draw them only to the darkness and not to CHRIST .
I PRAY TO GOD folks will start preaching BIBLE SOUND doctrine in those churches
and cease all the wordly allures and rather preach CHRIST and all bibical truth .

I didn’t see an answer to @Marmog’s question ANYWHERE in your response – so I’ll ask you in a slightly different way:
Do you believe that the Eucharist (Lord’s Supper, Communion) is actually the Body and Blood of Christ?

If you don’t - then WHAT is it?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I didn’t see an answer to @Marmog’s question ANYWHERE in your response – so I’ll ask you in a slightly different way:
Do you believe that the Eucharist (Lord’s Supper, Communion) is actually the Body and Blood of Christ?

If you don’t - then WHAT is it?

Excuse me for butting in on a conversation with someone else.

They are simply a memorial to recall teh death and resurrection of jesus.

If one studies the actual Passover seder, one finds Jesus explaining the typology of two elements of the seder. Most of the seder was known as symbolic of something else, but the particular unleavened bread and the particular cup Jesus passed around had never been explained.

Jesus took the middle loaf from a trifolded napkin. It had to be unleavened, striped and pierced. He broke it in half, passed out one half and put the other back to be done later.

Of the four cups at Passover, (fifth if a family also had the cup of Elijah) Jesus took the fourth cup- the cup of redemption

4. “Kos Revii” – The Fourth Cup

This cup is drunk after the concluding portion of Hallel is recited. According to Jewish Tradition, this portion is focused on the future, and asks G-d to redeem Israel and humanity-at-large, and usher in the period spoken of by the Prophets, in which “Nishmat kol chai tevarech et shimecha, Hashem” “The soul of every living thing will bless Your Name, O G-d.”

At that time, all of humanity will come to the realization that “lecha tov l’hodot, u’leshimecha naeh lezamer,” “to you it is good to give thanks, and to Your Name it is fitting to sing,” because truly, Hashem is the “Melech Kel, Chai HaOlamim,” “Almighty King, Life of the Universe.”

Blessings are recited before and after the drinking of the Cup, and the Seder is thereby concluded.

Jesus was showing that teh cup of redemption was His blood poured out for sin. Remember it is to be done in remembrance of HIm and to show forth His death till He returns.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Excuse me for butting in on a conversation with someone else.

They are simply a memorial to recall teh death and resurrection of jesus.

If one studies the actual Passover seder, one finds Jesus explaining the typology of two elements of the seder. Most of the seder was known as symbolic of something else, but the particular unleavened bread and the particular cup Jesus passed around had never been explained.

Jesus took the middle loaf from a trifolded napkin. It had to be unleavened, striped and pierced. He broke it in half, passed out one half and put the other back to be done later.

Of the four cups at Passover, (fifth if a family also had the cup of Elijah) Jesus took the fourth cup- the cup of redemption

4. “Kos Revii” – The Fourth Cup

This cup is drunk after the concluding portion of Hallel is recited. According to Jewish Tradition, this portion is focused on the future, and asks G-d to redeem Israel and humanity-at-large, and usher in the period spoken of by the Prophets, in which “Nishmat kol chai tevarech et shimecha, Hashem” “The soul of every living thing will bless Your Name, O G-d.”

At that time, all of humanity will come to the realization that “lecha tov l’hodot, u’leshimecha naeh lezamer,” “to you it is good to give thanks, and to Your Name it is fitting to sing,” because truly, Hashem is the “Melech Kel, Chai HaOlamim,” “Almighty King, Life of the Universe.”

Blessings are recited before and after the drinking of the Cup, and the Seder is thereby concluded.

Jesus was showing that teh cup of redemption was His blood poured out for sin. Remember it is to be done in remembrance of HIm and to show forth His death till He returns.

The difference is that the Seder IS symbolic of something past.
The Angel of Death isn’t lurking about the Egyptian countryside, slaying all of the firstborn children. The unleavened bread SYMBOLZED the haste in which the Israelites fled Egypt. Bitter herbs SYNBOLIZED the bitterness of their bondage and so on.

The Lord’s Supper, however is NOT just a symbol of something past.
Jesus told His followers:
John 6:53-58
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

The normal Greek word for the was a human eats is “Phago” – but this is NOT the word used in John’s Gospel. He uses the word “Trogo”, which is the way an animal gnaws and rips apart his food. He was making a point that Jesus MEANT what He said.

He said, my flesh is TRUE FOOD, and my blood is TRUE DRINK.
WHY would He say that?

In John 6:66, when His disciple shad enough of this “Eat my flesh” talk – it says that MANY left him on that day and returned to their former way of life.
Jesus didn’t stop them or tray to explain what He was saying – like He ALWAYS did with His Parables and Lessons.

Instead, he turned to the Twelve and said, “Do you ALSO want to leave?
WHY would He say that?
WHY didn’t He explain the “symbolism” like He ALWAYS did?

Then, at the Last Supper – Jesus could easily have said: “This is a memorial symbol of my Body”, or, “This represents my Blood.”
That’s NOT what He said. He emphasized, “This IS my Body”, and, This IS my Blood.”
WHY would He say that?
WHY didn’t He explain the “symbolism”?

YOUR turn.

 

[Marymog]

I didn’t see an answer to @Marmog’s question ANYWHERE in your response – so I’ll ask you in a slightly different way:
Do you believe that the Eucharist (Lord’s Supper, Communion) is actually the Body and Blood of Christ?

If you don’t - then WHAT is it?

Lol....when does @amigo de christo EVER answer a question?

 

[Jim B]

How can the eucharist actually be the body and blood of Christ? All one has to do is read the account of the Passover dinner that Jesus and His disciples had together.

The actual living person of Jesus Christ was reclining at a table and offered those who were there with Him bread and wine, saying that they should eat and drink: "While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat, this is my body.” And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:26-28

Think about it! Jesus is alive at the table, handing them bread and wine. How can it be anything but symbolic? Obviously it is not His body and blood; He is there in the flesh talking to them, telling them how to symbolically remember Him when He is no longer with them.

It is literally insane to think that eating bread and drinking wine is actually consuming the body and blood of Jesus Christ!

 

[Illuminator]

Excuse me for butting in on a conversation with someone else.

They are simply a memorial to recall teh death and resurrection of jesus.

If one studies the actual Passover seder, one finds Jesus explaining the typology of two elements of the seder. Most of the seder was known as symbolic of something else, but the particular unleavened bread and the particular cup Jesus passed around had never been explained.

Jesus took the middle loaf from a trifolded napkin. It had to be unleavened, striped and pierced. He broke it in half, passed out one half and put the other back to be done later.

Of the four cups at Passover, (fifth if a family also had the cup of Elijah) Jesus took the fourth cup- the cup of redemption

There is no biblical evidence that Jesus took the forth cup in the Upper Room. The Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Crucifixion is one and the same sacrifice. When you see that it's because God revealed it to you. It's a supernatural grace available to anyone who is humble enough to respond to it.

Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25 – Jesus is celebrating the Passover seder meal with the apostles which requires them to drink four cups of wine. But Jesus only presents the first three cups. He stops at the Third Cup (called “Cup of Blessing” – that is why Paul in 1 Cor. 10:16 uses the phrase “Cup of Blessing” to refer to the Eucharist – he ties the seder meal to the Eucharistic sacrifice). But Jesus conspicuously tells his apostles that He is omitting the Fourth Cup called the “Cup of Consummation.” The Gospel writers point this critical omission of the seder meal out to us to demonstrate that the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacrifice on the cross are one and the same sacrifice, and the sacrifice would not be completed until Jesus drank the Fourth Cup on the cross.

Matt. 26:30; Mark 14:26 – they sung the great Hallel, which traditionally followed the Third Cup of the seder meal, but did not drink the Fourth Cup of Consummation. The Passover sacrifice had begun, but was not yet finished. It continued in the Garden of Gethsemane and was consummated on the cross.

4. “Kos Revii” – The Fourth Cup

This cup is drunk after the concluding portion of Hallel is recited. According to Jewish Tradition, this portion is focused on the future, and asks G-d to redeem Israel and humanity-at-large, and usher in the period spoken of by the Prophets, in which “Nishmat kol chai tevarech et shimecha, Hashem” “The soul of every living thing will bless Your Name, O G-d.”

Wait a minute. The Hallel is sung after the Third Cup, the cup that Paul talks about. (1 Cor. 10:16) I don't think any Jew you find would get their cups mixed up.

Blessings are recited before and after the drinking of the Cup, and the Seder is thereby concluded.

Beautiful, isn't it? Who in the Gospels drank the Fourth Cup, and when???

Jesus was showing that teh cup of redemption was His blood poured out for sin. Remember it is to be done in remembrance of HIm and to show forth His death till He returns.

"Remembrance" is has a deeper meaning in Greek or Hebrew than it does in English. Here's proof:

Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – the translation of Jesus’ words of consecration is “touto poieite tan eman anamnasin.” Jesus literally said “offer this as my memorial sacrifice.” The word “poiein” (do) refers to offering a sacrifice (see, e.g., Exodus 29:38-39, where God uses the same word – poieseis – regarding the sacrifice of the lambs on the altar). The word “anamnesis” (remembrance) also refers to a sacrifice which is really or actually made present in time by the power of God, as it reminds God of the actual event (see, e.g., Heb. 10:3; Num. 10:10). It is not just a memorial of a past event, but a past event made present in time.

In other words, the “sacrifice” is the “memorial” or “reminder.” If the Eucharist weren’t a sacrifice, Luke would have used the word “mnemosunon” (which is the word used to describe a nonsacrificial memorial. See, for example, Matt. 26:13; Mark 14:9; and especially Acts 10:4). So there are two memorials, one sacrificial (which Jesus instituted), and one non-sacrificial.

Lev. 24:7 – the word “memorial” in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is “azkarah” which means to actually make present (see Lev. 2:2,9,16;5:12;6:5; Num.5:26 where “azkarah” refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus’ instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a “memorial offering” demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present in time over and over again.

Num. 10:10 – in this verse, “remembrance” refers to a sacrifice, not just a symbolic memorial. So Jesus’ command to offer the memorial “in remembrance” of Him demonstrates that the memorial offering is indeed a sacrifice currently offered. It is a re-presentation of the actual sacrifice made present in time. It is as if the curtain of history is drawn and Calvary is made present to us.

Mal. 1:10-11 – Jesus’ command to his apostles to offer His memorial sacrifice of bread and wine which becomes His body and blood fulfills the prophecy that God would reject the Jewish sacrifices and receive a pure sacrifice offered in every place. This pure sacrifice of Christ is sacramentally re-presented from the rising of the sun to its setting in every place, as Malachi prophesied.

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