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Ferris Bueller

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what you said earlier when you said a “born again person who ALREADY has the life of the sacrifice in him does not need to eat bread and wine to get the life of Christ” was not what you meant. They already have life in them?
Note carefully what I wrote: "to get the life of Christ".

In non-Catholic theology a born again person ALREADY has the life of Christ in them in salvation. That's what makes them born again - they have Christ's life in them. So there is no need to do ANYTHING (eat this, recite this, perform this, etc.) in order to get the life of Christ HE ALREADY HAS. Those other things are done FOR OTHER REASONS, NOT IN ORDER TO GET THE LIFE OF CHRIST. Understand?
 
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Ferris Bueller

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So now I have to ask; How does eating/drinking a symbol give us life?
It doesn't. That's what Catholics are deceived about.

You said we do it to get life!
YOU CATHOLICS do it to get life. Not us non-Catholics.

So, how does participating in a commemoration give us life?
It doesn't. That's exactly what the Catholic church deceives people about. Spiritual life does not come from the Mosaic Passover elements.

If it is just a symbol it wouldn’t do anything; would it?
That is correct. The wine and the bread do NOTHING. It's a symbolic commemoration of what Jesus did for us and our unity in Christ. No one receives spiritual life through the Mosaic Passover elements. They are a type and shadow of the true Passover - Christ and his blood shed for us.
 
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Jim B

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It doesn't. That's what Catholics are deceived about.


YOU CATHOLICS do it to get life. Not us non-Catholics.


It doesn't. That's exactly what the Catholic church deceives people about. Spiritual life does not come from the Mosaic Passover elements.


That is correct. The wine and the bread do NOTHING. It's a symbolic commemoration of what Jesus did for us and our unity in Christ. No one receives spiritual life through the Mosaic Passover elements. They are a type and shadow of the true Passover - Christ and his blood shed for us.

Great post! It should be read by everyone!
 
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Marymog

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It doesn't. That's what Catholics are deceived about.
Lol....Hold on Ferris...HOLD ON!! You are a very confusing person!

Sooooo when you eat the bread/drink wine in remembrance of Him you are just pretending it is His body and blood? And that bread/wine is just a symbol of His body/blood? And that symbolic body/blood does NOT bring life into you (John 6:53-57)?

Sooooo how do fulfill John 6:53-57? If you have answered that question already please just refer me to that post.

Mary
 

Marymog

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It doesn't. That's what Catholics are deceived about.


YOU CATHOLICS do it to get life. Not us non-Catholics.


It doesn't. That's exactly what the Catholic church deceives people about. Spiritual life does not come from the Mosaic Passover elements.


That is correct. The wine and the bread do NOTHING. It's a symbolic commemoration of what Jesus did for us and our unity in Christ. No one receives spiritual life through the Mosaic Passover elements. They are a type and shadow of the true Passover - Christ and his blood shed for us.
Sooooo Ferris..... I think after our extended conversation about this I have finally put together what your men have taught you!

You have been taught that a born-again person already has the life of Christ in them in salvation. That means there is no need to eat bread/drink wine in order to get the life of Christ in them because he already has it in him. The bread and wine that we eat are a symbolic commemoration of Him to be done in remembrance of Him.

I still don't understand how the process of being "born again" fulfills Jesus words of eating/drinking Him (referring to literal bread when doing so) to have life in us....but I digress. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where it says we only have to eat/drink Him one time and that fulfills His request....but I digress. The writings of the men who walked and talked with the Apostles say OPPOSITE of what your men from the Reformation have taught you....but I digress. In summary: Neither Scripture or Christian historical teachings are on your side...but I digress!

You believe that The Catholic Church has deceived people by teaching them that eating bread/drinking wine fulfils Jesus's instruction that we must eat his body/drink his blood to have life in us. The Catholic Church has deceived people by teaching them that when Jesus held up the bread/wine saying it IS his body/blood that Jesus really meant it was a symbol. The Catholic Church has deceived people into thinking that when Paul said participation in the bread/wine IS a participation in His body/blood it really wasn't a participation in His body/blood! o_O



Got it......Catholics (and of course the Protestants who also believe the same thing) are deceived! Sooooooo I can provide to you the writings from the first 2 centuries of Christian teaching that they also believe what us modern day true Christians believe. Would that change your mind if you found out that your men have taught you opposite of what the NT Christians practiced/preached? Or are you willing to stick with what your Reformation men taught you?
 

Marymog

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It means that you're putting yourself under the law. There is no requirement to drink the wine and eat the bread; that is Catholic legalism. BTW, why isn't the bread and wine offered to everyone? Are your priests defying Jesus' command?
There is no requirment to do what Jesus told us to do? Who taught you that Jim?

His body and blood in the form of bread and wine is offered to everyone. Who taught you that it isn't? The same men who taught you that there is no requirement to do what Jesus told you to do?
 

Jim B

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Sooooo Ferris..... I think after our extended conversation about this I have finally put together what your men have taught you!

You have been taught that a born-again person already has the life of Christ in them in salvation. That means there is no need to eat bread/drink wine in order to get the life of Christ in them because he already has it in him. The bread and wine that we eat are a symbolic commemoration of Him to be done in remembrance of Him.

I still don't understand how the process of being "born again" fulfills Jesus words of eating/drinking Him (referring to literal bread when doing so) to have life in us....but I digress. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where it says we only have to eat/drink Him one time and that fulfills His request....but I digress. The writings of the men who walked and talked with the Apostles say OPPOSITE of what your men from the Reformation have taught you....but I digress. In summary: Neither Scripture or Christian historical teachings are on your side...but I digress!

You believe that The Catholic Church has deceived people by teaching them that eating bread/drinking wine fulfils Jesus's instruction that we must eat his body/drink his blood to have life in us. The Catholic Church has deceived people by teaching them that when Jesus held up the bread/wine saying it IS his body/blood that Jesus really meant it was a symbol. The Catholic Church has deceived people into thinking that when Paul said participation in the bread/wine IS a participation in His body/blood it really wasn't a participation in His body/blood! o_O



Got it......Catholics (and of course the Protestants who also believe the same thing) are deceived! Sooooooo I can provide to you the writings from the first 2 centuries of Christian teaching that they also believe what us modern day true Christians believe. Would that change your mind if you found out that your men have taught you opposite of what the NT Christians practiced/preached? Or are you willing to stick with what your Reformation men taught you?

One thing (only) that you wrote is correct: a born-again person already has the life of Christ in them in salvation. That means there is no need to eat bread/drink wine in order to get the life of Christ in them because he already has it in him. The bread and wine that we eat are a symbolic commemoration of Him to be done in remembrance of Him.
 

Jim B

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There is no requirement to do what Jesus told us to do? Who taught you that Jim?

His body and blood in the form of bread and wine is offered to everyone. Who taught you that it isn't? The same men who taught you that there is no requirement to do what Jesus told you to do?

Then why do you write "Jesus's instruction that we must eat his body/drink his blood to have life in us"? Is it a requirement or isn't it?

I and others have been denied the bread and wine in Catholic services because we were not Catholics.
 

Marymog

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Then why do you write "Jesus's instruction that we must eat his body/drink his blood to have life in us"? Is it a requirement or isn't it?

I and others have been denied the bread and wine in Catholic services because we were not Catholics.
Jesus made it VERY clear and I have made it very clear and Christianity for 2,000 years has made it very clear that it is a requirement Jim:

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

NOW, answer my previous question which you DODGED: Who taught you that you do not have to eat his body and drink his blood Jim?

You were denied His body and blood because you don't believe Him when he said it IS his body and blood! You are not a believer. That is YOUR problem, not a problem for The Church. Once you fix YOUR problem you can participate.
 

Jim B

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Jesus made it VERY clear and I have made it very clear and Christianity for 2,000 years has made it very clear that it is a requirement Jim:

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

NOW, answer my previous question which you DODGED: Who taught you that you do not have to eat his body and drink his blood Jim?

You were denied His body and blood because you don't believe Him when he said it IS his body and blood! You are not a believer. That is YOUR problem, not a problem for The Church. Once you fix YOUR problem you can participate.

Thank you for your very Christian reply -- not. The tone of your post clearly shows that all the bread and wine you have consumed hasn't done you the slightest bit of good.

Let's back up to John 6:40. "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” I don't see anything here about eating bread and wine to be a requirement. Or here: John 5:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life." Or here: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 So please stop your high and mighty tone of indignation about your sacraments. As Ferris correctly wrote, "That's exactly what the Catholic church deceives people about. Spiritual life does not come from the Mosaic Passover elements." They not a requirement! Your priests -- men -- have had you believe something that isn't true!

Never forget that Jesus served Judas the bread and wine. Then Judas left and betrayed Him. So much for "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life".
Was Jesus lying or are you misapplying Scripture? (The answer is obvious!)

And you wrote this: "You were denied His body and blood because you don't believe Him when he said it IS his body and blood! You are not a believer." Again, an anti-Christian, false statement. Your priests denied me the bread and wine because I was not a Catholic! No other reason! I'm sure that if you were serving the bread and wine you would have denied them to me also. (Of course that is hypothetical since your denomination considers women to be inferior, i.e., you cannot be priests!)

You believe the false doctrines of your denomination. And you hostile tone shows that your faith has no value!

And I agree with what Wrangler wrote elsewhere: The Roman Catholic church are the original heretics. Rather than humbly admit the historical facts that support that, you adopt of mocking Spirit, not a Holy Spirit. That really says it all.
 
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Marymog

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Thank you for your very Christian reply -- not. The tone of your post clearly shows that all the bread and wine you have consumed hasn't done you the slightest bit of good.

Let's back up to John 6:40. "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” I don't see anything here about eating bread and wine to be a requirement. Or here: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 So please stop your high and mighty tone of indignation about your sacraments. As Ferris correctly wrote, "That's exactly what the Catholic church deceives people about. Spiritual life does not come from the Mosaic Passover elements." They not a requirement! Your priests -- men -- have had you believe something that isn't true!

Never forget that Jesus served Judas the bread and wine. Then Judas left and betrayed Him. So much for "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life".
Was Jesus lying or are you misapplying Scripture? (The answer is obvious!)

And you wrote this: "You were denied His body and blood because you don't believe Him when he said it IS his body and blood! You are not a believer." Again, an anti-Christian, false statement. Your priests denied me the bread and wine because I was not a Catholic! No other reason! I'm sure that if you were serving the bread and wine you would have denied them to me also. (Of course that is hypothetical since your denomination considers women to be inferior, i.e., you cannot be priests!)

You believe the false doctrines of your denomination. And you hostile tone shows that your faith has no value!
John 6:40 DOES NOT negate 53-58. What man taught you that it does?

Eating bread and drinking wine IS a requirement because we are required to do what he TOLD us to do: Luke 22:19. What man taught you that you are not required to do what he told you to do?

No, you were not denied because you are not Catholic. You were denied because you do not believe what Scripture says. Some non-Catholics can receive communion in the Catholic Church. Someone has lied to you…and you fell for it.
 

Jim B

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John 6:40 DOES NOT negate 53-58. What man taught you that it does?

Eating bread and drinking wine IS a requirement because we are required to do what he TOLD us to do: Luke 22:19. What man taught you that you are not required to do what he told you to do?

No, you were not denied because you are not Catholic. You were denied because you do not believe what Scripture says. Some non-Catholics can receive communion in the Catholic Church. Someone has lied to you…and you fell for it.

Sorry, but I believe what the Bible says, not your mistaken opinion of what it says. It's ironic to me that you, a Catholic, justify your statements from Scripture, since so much of your doctrine is the invention of men. Sola scriptura!

Eating bread and drinking wine has been a part of the Passover ritual since the night before the Hebrews left Egypt. Were all those people saved by what they ate and drink? Obviously not. They followed the commandment but it did them no good. So the Passover bread and wine by themselves don't save. Jesus may have changed the meaning, but it was at the Passover dinner that He shared the bread and wine with His Jewish disciples. And as I pointed out earlier, the bread and wine didn't benefit Judas.

Unlike yourself, I am not under the law. I live by faith in the Son of God.
 

Jim B

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<snip>

No, you were not denied because you are not Catholic. You were denied because you do not believe what Scripture says. Some non-Catholics can receive communion in the Catholic Church. Someone has lied to you…and you fell for it.

The priests didn't ask me whether I believed Scripture or not. They denied me the bread and wine because I was not a Catholic! I was there; you were not. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not; I know the truth of what happened.

If somebody lied to me, it was your Catholic priests. (Which doesn't surpryse me.)
 

Marymog

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Sorry, but I believe what the Bible says, not your mistaken opinion of what it says. It's ironic to me that you, a Catholic, justify your statements from Scripture, since so much of your doctrine is the invention of men. Sola scriptura!

Eating bread and drinking wine has been a part of the Passover ritual since the night before the Hebrews left Egypt. Were all those people saved by what they ate and drink? Obviously not. They followed the commandment but it did them no good. So the Passover bread and wine by themselves don't save. Jesus may have changed the meaning, but it was at the Passover dinner that He shared the bread and wine with His Jewish disciples. And as I pointed out earlier, the bread and wine didn't benefit Judas.

Unlike yourself, I am not under the law. I live by faith in the Son of God.
EDIT Your men invented their beliefs from the words of Scripture. For you see it takes man to interpret the Bible.

You are confused or your men have taught you wrong. I suspect it is both. It is not the eating of the bread/wine that saves you. It is obeying Him that saves you: Do this in remembrance of me!
 
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Marymog

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The priests didn't ask me whether I believed Scripture or not. They denied me the bread and wine because I was not a Catholic! I was there; you were not. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not; I know the truth of what happened.

If somebody lied to me, it was your Catholic priests. (Which doesn't surpryse me.)
LOL…so let me see if I understand you correctly. You walked up to receive communion. The priest looked at you and could tell that you were not Catholic so he denied you communion?

Is that what happened Jim?
 

Jim B

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To be honest her Jim you believe what your men have taught you what the Bible says. Your men invented their beliefs from the words of Scripture. For you see it takes man to interpret the Bible.

You are confused or your men have taught you wrong. I suspect it is both. It is not the eating of the bread/wine that saves you. It is obeying Him that saves you: Do this in remembrance of me!

You wrote earlier (sarcastically) to Ferris: "Defy His commandment to eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Him. Defy his commandment that you MUST eat His body and drink his blood." Now you write (sarcastically) "Defy His commandment to eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Him. Defy his commandment that you MUST eat His body and drink his blood." So is it a requirement or isn't it?

My men? You're joking! I believe what the Bible, the inerrant word of God, says. I listen to the teachings of men but if they don't agree with Scripture (like so much Catholic teachings) I don't pay attention to them. Sola scriptura!!!

One thing that you wrote we clearly agree on: "[My] men invented their beliefs from the words of Scripture. For you see it takes man to interpret the Bible." Your men, Catholic priests, invented many of their beliefs separate from the words of Scripture. They have taught you wrong doctrine, which is why you are confused. Sola scriptura!!!
 

Jim B

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LOL…so let me see if I understand you correctly. You walked up to receive communion. The priest looked at you and could tell that you were not Catholic so he denied you communion?

Is that what happened Jim?

No, that is not what happened. Communion was offered to Catholics only. The rest of us were told that if we were not Catholics we could not come forward to receive the bread and wine.
 

Marymog

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You wrote earlier (sarcastically) to Ferris: "Defy His commandment to eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Him. Defy his commandment that you MUST eat His body and drink his blood." Now you write (sarcastically) "Defy His commandment to eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Him. Defy his commandment that you MUST eat His body and drink his blood." So is it a requirement or isn't it?

My men? You're joking! I believe what the Bible, the inerrant word of God, says. I listen to the teachings of men but if they don't agree with Scripture (like so much Catholic teachings) I don't pay attention to them. Sola scriptura!!!

One thing that you wrote we clearly agree on: "[My] men invented their beliefs from the words of Scripture. For you see it takes man to interpret the Bible." Your men, Catholic priests, invented many of their beliefs separate from the words of Scripture. They have taught you wrong doctrine, which is why you are confused. Sola scriptura!!!
Yes Jim, it is a requirement to obey Him. What did he tell you to do in remembrance of Him? Why is this so hard for you to understand?

You listen to the teachings of other men but if they don’t agree with YOU then you don’t pay attention to them….That is not Sola Scriptura Jim! You do realize that…..Don’t you? Sooooo my men read Scripture and they got it wrong. Your not going to approve of what they say UNLESS what they agrees with what you say? That is fascinating.

Soooooo if you write something that is opposite of what an Apostolic Father wrote, should I believe YOU or THEM?

Apostolic Father: a student of the Apostles; Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp
 

Jim B

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Yes Jim, it is a requirement to obey Him. What did he tell you to do in remembrance of Him? Why is this so hard for you to understand?

You listen to the teachings of other men but if they don’t agree with YOU then you don’t pay attention to them….That is not Sola Scriptura Jim! You do realize that…..Don’t you? Sooooo my men read Scripture and they got it wrong. Your not going to approve of what they say UNLESS what they agrees with what you say? That is fascinating.

Soooooo if you write something that is opposite of what an Apostolic Father wrote, should I believe YOU or THEM?

Apostolic Father: a student of the Apostles; Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp

This is just Catholic babble. You believe whatever your priests dream up. The Catholic doctrine is full of so many unScriptural errors that it is astonishing that your clergy gets anyone in to believe it. Examples: Mary is "ever virgin"; Peter is the rock on which the church is built; eating bread and wine is required to be saved; and of course, the big one: Jesus is visually depicted as still hanging on the cross, dead.

Soooooo if you write something that is opposite of what the Bible clearly says, should I believe YOU or GOD?
 
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Marymog

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This is just Catholic babble. You believe whatever your priests dream up. The Catholic doctrine is full of so many unScriptural errors that it is astonishing that your clergy gets anyone in to believe it. Examples: Mary is "ever virgin"; Peter is the rock on which the church is built; eating bread and wine is required to be saved; and of course, the big one: Jesus is visually depicted as still hanging on the cross, dead.

Soooooo if you write something that is opposite of what the Bible clearly says, should I believe YOU or GOD?
A requirement to obey Him is Catholic Bible??????? You crack me up….


Asking a question is not an answer to a question Jimbo. Let’s try again: If you write something that is opposite of what an Apostolic Father wrote, should I believe YOU or THEM?