Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

 

[quietthinker]

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

This is an aside, subsequently I have only posted and addressed your last sentence.
It is a question....Is Jesus the Word of God or is the written text we know as the Bible the word of God?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

It is a question....Is Jesus the Word of God or is the written text we know as the Bible the word of God?

both. Jesus Christ, as we can seen from verses like John 1:1, is "The Word of God". The Greek noun "λόγος", has the meaning of "expression". In verse 18, we read of Jesus Christ, as "ἐξηγέομαι" God the Father, the word meaning, "to lead out, to draw out in narrative". Another word is "the Image (εἰκών, as of one looking in the mirror) of the Invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). Which is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me, has seen the Father" (John 14:9), because, "I am in the Father, and the Father in Me" (verses 10-11).

also "the Word of God", which is God's Divine Revelation in Written form to the human race, consisting in 66 Books know as The Holy Bible

 

[quietthinker]

also "the Word of God", which is God's Divine Revelation in Written form to the human race, consisting in 66 Books know as The Holy Bible

How do you reconcile commands for genocide in certain OT writings and the revelation of God in Jesus ?

 

[Enoch111]

Is Jesus the Word of God or is the written text we know as the Bible the word of God?

How about both?

 

[Enoch111]

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

True. This is a major deception and a snare, and those who are snared are almost helpless to free themselves from this deception.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

How do you reconcile commands for genocide in certain OT writings and the revelation of God in Jesus ?

The God of the Bible is Sovereign, which means that He can and does as He pleases, and is accountable to no one. He can destroy a complete nation should He choose to, as in the rebellion of Korah in Numbers 16, where we read, "the earth to open her mouth and swallow him and all that appertained to them" (32). And in everything that God does, He is 100% Just and Justified in His Actions!

Pslam 135:5-6,

"For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places"

Daniel 4:34-35,

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:.And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

AMEN!

 

[Lambano]

The God of the Bible is Sovereign, which means that He can and does as He pleases, and is accountable to no one.

Which is precisely what a Calvinist (which I am not) will argue in response to your original question: God is sovereign and it pleases Him to have ordained preaching and persuasion as one of the means of drawing His elect because that brings Him glory. Once someone accepts that paradigm, it becomes a lens through which they see and filter and interpret the Bible.

It's been 412 years since the Articles of Remonstrance were published, and the issue is still being debated. Me, I have other reasons for rejecting that lens, including that I don't think it brings God glory at all.

 

[n2thelight]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

Can't be really understood unless you know the age before the one we are currently in ?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Which is precisely what a Calvinist (which I am not) will argue in response to your original question: God is sovereign and it pleases Him to have ordained preaching and persuasion as one of the means of drawing His elect because that brings Him glory. Once someone accepts that paradigm, it becomes a lens through which they see and filter and interpret the Bible.

It's been 412 years since the Articles of Remonstrance were published, and the issue is still being debated. Me, I have other reasons for rejecting that lens, including that I don't think it brings God glory at all.

John 3:16-18 is against the "reformed/calvinistic" teaching of election to salvation, and that Jesus Christ did not Die for the entire human race. John Calvin, who is supposed to be from whom "Calvinism" has its source, says this on John 3:16

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Robert Dabney, who was a Calvinist, had this to say on the use of “kosmos” (world) here:

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

 

[Lambano]

John 3:16-18 is against the "reformed/calvinistic" teaching of election to salvation, and that Jesus Christ did not Die for the entire human race. John Calvin, who is supposed to be from whom "Calvinism" has its source, says this on John 3:16...

Ah yes. My very first post on CB was arguing that κόσμος HAS to mean "all men without exception" to be consistent with its usage in the Johannine writings. What insanity must have possessed me to join this mess again?

I find it interesting that John Calvin himself was only a "4-pointer". I didn't know that. The counter-argument is that even if Christ died for all men without exception, men are depraved and will not / cannot "believeth" (pardon my lisp) the persuasion unless the Spirit regenerates his spirit. To which I would counter-counter-argue, "Oh? Men place their trust in all sorts of people and things. How do they do they trust anything? And those who trusted for a while and then fell away, how did they trust in the first place?" And so it goes, ad infinitum.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Ah yes. My very first post on CB was arguing that κόσμος HAS to mean "all men without exception" to be consistent with its usage in the Johannine writings. What insanity must have possessed me to join this mess again?

I find it interesting that John Calvin himself was only a "4-pointer". I didn't know that. The counter-argument is that even if Christ died for all men without exception, men are depraved and will not / cannot "believeth" (pardon my lisp) the persuasion unless the Spirit regenerates his spirit. To which I would counter-counter-argue, "Oh? Men place their trust in all sorts of people and things. How do they do they trust anything? And those who trusted for a while and then fell away, how did they trust in the first place?" And so it goes, ad infinitum.

Calvin on


John 1:29;

“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Romans 5:18;

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”

Mark 14:24, where Jesus says that His death is a “ransom for many”. Calvin says:

“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”

 

[Lambano]

Definitely Calvin was only a four-pointer. But you're arguing against the "L", where your original post touches the "T" and the "U".

It's too bad the Remonstrants didn't have a catchy acronym.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Definitely Calvin was only a four-pointer. But you're arguing against the "L", where your original post touches the "T" and the "U".

It's too bad the Remonstrants didn't have a catchy acronym.

What is very interesting, is the comments by Calvin on Mark 14:24, is from the Lord's Supper, which, accroding to the account in Luke, Judas was present for, and took part in. The word "many" here must also include Judas.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes! God is outside time and God knew you before you were born and who would choose to believe and who would choose to reject but it was and is all your choice.

 

[Nancy]

Which is precisely what a Calvinist (which I am not) will argue in response to your original question: God is sovereign and it pleases Him to have ordained preaching and persuasion as one of the means of drawing His elect because that brings Him glory. Once someone accepts that paradigm, it becomes a lens through which they see and filter and interpret the Bible.

It's been 412 years since the Articles of Remonstrance were published, and the issue is still being debated. Me, I have other reasons for rejecting that lens, including that I don't think it brings God glory at all.

Hi bro,
Neither do I think any of their doctrine brings God glory but just the opposite. I have asked this very question of Calvinists and the answer is pretty much the very same, they say to me after asking why bother to evangelize if the "elect" are already saved: "Because God said to" God does not tell us to do these salvific acts for nothing, I think He seemed quite clear about that...He always has a reason.
:)

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Hi bro,
Neither do I think any of their doctrine brings God glory but just the opposite. I have asked this very question of Calvinists and the answer is pretty much the very same, they say to me after asking why bother to evangelize if the "elect" are already saved: "Because God said to" God does not tell us to do these salvific acts for nothing, I think He seemed quite clear about that...He always has a reason.
:)

Calvinism especially on salvation is totally UNBIBLICAL. John 3.16 is very much against their theology on this

 

[Taken]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?
OP ^

Quite simply because men are naturally born in sin, into a world that is corrupt, is full of evil angels and wicked men.

There is no need for men to choose to hear or read or experience Corruption, it’s everywhere.

However, the hearing, reading and experiencing Gods Word hinges on a man CHOICE to make the effort, to hear, to read, to experience TASTING Gods Word.

God desires for all to hear, read, experience, TASTE Gods WORD....like it and keep TASTING....in hopes a man will DECIDE to EAT it. (God already KNOWS, IF they will EAT His Word....individual men DISCOVER as they grow and mature, WHAT they will choose for themselves.)

The nudging, the coaxing, the persuading, is no different than any parent who introduces their child to something new with nudging, coaxing, persuading so they will TASTE and enjoy and want more.

As far at the ELECT....They were KNOWN to God, long before they were naturally born.......BUT being the ELECT, is NOT KNOWN to the individual, until long AFTER they are born.

We can observe parents nudging their children toward a particular “career”, priming them, coaxing them, preparing them.....and OOPS, after all the effort, the child decides a completely different direction....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

God orchestrates events and people that come into our lives, spreading the Gospel outwardly. But there is an inward calling. He communicates with us, gradually convincing us until we say yes. It doesn't happen over night. Paul visited areas for weeks and months preaching, showing them through scripture, prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, stories, healings, etc. Those elect may have lived completely different ungodly lives or even worshipping false Roman or Greek gods with their traditions and ways engrained in them being passed down for generations and all of a sudden, they are told to leave it, die to it and adopt something new? The Gospel needed to soak in, to be digested. Light needed to be shined on their ways, their sin ... they needed to be convinced. This takes time and sometimes years or even a lifetime for people to stop resisting and repent.
I am not a Calvinist. But I do believe _ to be fair_ God draws all men to Himself BUT some resist. He knows His sheep and His sheep hear His voice. They are the elect, predestined to be conformed to Christ.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

He communicates with us, gradually convincing us until we say yes

This means that the Gospel Message is not really Good News, because sinner need, over time, to be CONVINCED that it is Good News! WHY would God contniue to CONVINCE sinners, that His Way of salvation is right, and that they need it? Paul says in Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile". The Gospel is the POWER of God, and CONVICTS and CONVERTS.