Why do they hate being called Christians

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OzSpen

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tom55 said:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/06/4444-victims-extent-of-abuse-in-catholic-church-in-australia-revealed

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church

ANY abuse is not acceptable. Take the log out of your eye and stop looking at the splinter in someone else's.

Your link to HIV/AIDS among RC clergy is 16 YEARS old. It is a story SPECIFICALLY about the RCC. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem in Protestant churches also.

How about you now find a CURRENT story with CURRENT statistics specifically about PROTESTANT clergy and AIDS? Then your bias wouldn't show so much.

We should be praying for these people who are our fellow Christians.
BoL,

If HIV/AIDS was bad among RC clergy 16 years ago, what gives you the impression that it would be better now when there is such a proportion of gay RC clergy and we know the susceptibility of the anus and rectum to infection?

Here's a 2013 report, Catholic Priests: It's 'Empirical Fact' That Many Clergy Are Gay (US News & World Report).

A report from 2011 had the heading, Vatican: Priests Have Been Raping Nuns to Avoid Hookers with HIV (AlterNet)

This is a 2015 article, ‘I Was A Gay Priest for 25 Years’ (Advocate).

Now I know why some people hate being identified as 'Christian'.

Oz
 

epostle1

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I hate this topic, it doesn't prove anything. The US News has a catchy headline but it doesn't say how many priests violate their vows with boyfriends. A gay priest doesn't necessarily mean actively gay. Being gay is not a sin, doing gay things is a sin. US New wants to keep the stake fires burning.

Of course there are no gay Protestant clergy and never any sex abuse.

The Alternet is a cheap tabloid, an editorial, offering no links to anything factual. "Confidential Vatican reports obtained by the National Catholic Reporter," That's a good one. It's always "Confidential Vatican reports". From who, the janitor? National Catholic Distorter, a source it cites with no link, is the most unreliable source for so called Catholic news. One lie that really stood out is about the Pope was once a member of the Hitler Youth. This is misleading because anti-Catholic bigots ignore the fact that everyone in high school was forced to join it, years before the atrocities broke out. He got out as soon as he could and joined an underground seminary. I could go on about the lies of Alternet.

‘I Was A Gay Priest for 25 Years’ (Advocate). There is nothing in this article that advocates gay behavior, but acceptance of those with homosexual inclinations. They are not the same. A gay priest can still be a good priest, as long as he doesn't violate the vows he made to God. Same with ministers. With that said, homosexuals are no longer permitted into the seminary.

The Christian mission field is a “magnet” for sexual abusers, Boz Tchividjian, a Liberty University law professor who investigates abuse said Thursday (Sept. 26) to a room of journalists.While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.
Protestants ‘Worse’ Than Catholics On Abuse

Last month, I moved out of a residential Christian community attached to a Methodist church in London. I moved for several reasons. One was the way that the church had handled an allegation of sexual abuse. The victim in that case was interviewed as part of the Methodist church’s Past Cases Review into abuse allegations. She had no advance notice of Thursday’s announcement by the Methodist church, which has formally apologised for 1,885 cases of abuse over the past 60 years. Despite media references to “historical abuse”, some of the cases are very recent...
Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Tchividjian had become convinced that the Protestant world is teetering on the edge of a sex-abuse scandal similar to the one that had rocked the Catholic Church. He is careful to say that there’s not enough data to compare the prevalence of child sex abuse in Protestant and Catholic institutions, but he’s convinced the problem has reached a crisis point. He’s not alone in that belief. In 2012, Christian radio host Janet Mefferd declared, “This is an epidemic going on in churches. … When are evangelicals going to wake up and say we have a massive problem in our own churches?” For years, Protestants have assumed they were immune to the abuses perpetrated by celibate Catholic priests. But Tchividjian believes that Protestant churches, groups, and schools have been worse than Catholics in their response. Mission fields, he says, are “magnets” for would-be molesters; ministries and schools do not understand the dynamics of abuse; and “good ol’ boy” networks routinely cover up victims’ stories to protect their reputations. He fears it is only a matter of time before it all blows up in their faces and threatens the survival of powerful Protestant institutions.
BOB JONES UNIVERSITY SCANDALS AND COVER UPS

We know from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice investigation into this matter that almost all of the cases of the sexual abuse of minors that took place in Catholic institutions occurred between 1965 and 1985. By contrast, in the last five years, the average number of credible accusations made against 40,000 priests is exactly 7.6. Currently, it's down to less than 1%. No matter what number you pick, there is no entity in the United States today, private or public, that can match this record..(Catholic League)

The Catholic Church's record of aggressive and proactive protective measures is unparalleled in any organization today. Since the beginning of the abuse crisis, the Catholic Church:

-has instituted a "zero tolerance" policy in which any credibly accused priest is immediately
removed from ministry. Law enforcement is also notified;
-has trained over 5 million children in giving them skills to protect them from abuse;
-has trained over 2 million adults, including 99 percent of all priests, in recognizing signs of
abuse;
-has conducted over 2 million background checks, including those in the intensified screening
process for aspiring seminarians and priests;
-has installed "Victim Assistance Coordinators" in every diocese, "assuring victims that they
will be heard";
-has conducted annual independent audits of all dioceses to monitor compliance with the
groundbreaking*2002 Charter for Protection of Children and Young People;
-has instituted in all dioceses abuse review boards – often composed of child welfare experts,
child psychologists, and abuse experts – to examine any claims of abuse against priests.
- the slightest suspicion of wrongdoing must be reported to the police, by order of canon law.

No other organization even comes close to implementing the measures the Catholic Church has taken to protect children in its care. In this regard, the Catholic Church in the 21st century is the model for other institutions to follow in the safeguarding of youth.
http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/ <not a Catholic site

The Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors was created by Pope Francis in March of 2014. The Chirograph of His Holiness Pope Francis states specifically, “The Commission’s specific task is to propose to me the most opportune initiatives for protecting minors and vulnerable adults, in order that we may do everything possible to ensure that crimes such as those which have occurred are no longer repeated in the Church. The Commission is to promote local responsibility in the particular Churches, uniting their efforts to those of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, for the protection of all children and vulnerable adults.”


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mjrhealth

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I hate this topic, it doesn't prove anything. The
Oh yes it does it proves that none of mens churches are from God for they all commit these atrocities against the innocent, and they will all be judged "all" of then even yours.
 

OzSpen

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kepha31 said:
I hate this topic, it doesn't prove anything. The US News has a catchy headline but it doesn't say how many priests violate their vows with boyfriends. A gay priest doesn't necessarily mean actively gay. Being gay is not a sin, doing gay things is a sin. US New wants to keep the stake fires burning.

Of course there are no gay Protestant clergy and never any sex abuse.

The Alternet is a cheap tabloid, an editorial, offering no links to anything factual. "Confidential Vatican reports obtained by the National Catholic Reporter," That's a good one. It's always "Confidential Vatican reports". From who, the janitor? National Catholic Distorter, a source it cites with no link, is the most unreliable source for so called Catholic news. One lie that really stood out is about the Pope was once a member of the Hitler Youth. This is misleading because anti-Catholic bigots ignore the fact that everyone in high school was forced to join it, years before the atrocities broke out. He got out as soon as he could and joined an underground seminary. I could go on about the lies of Alternet.

‘I Was A Gay Priest for 25 Years’ (Advocate). There is nothing in this article that advocates gay behavior, but acceptance of those with homosexual inclinations. They are not the same. A gay priest can still be a good priest, as long as he doesn't violate the vows he made to God. Same with ministers. With that said, homosexuals are no longer permitted into the seminary.

The Christian mission field is a “magnet” for sexual abusers, Boz Tchividjian, a Liberty University law professor who investigates abuse said Thursday (Sept. 26) to a room of journalists.While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.
Protestants ‘Worse’ Than Catholics On Abuse

Last month, I moved out of a residential Christian community attached to a Methodist church in London. I moved for several reasons. One was the way that the church had handled an allegation of sexual abuse. The victim in that case was interviewed as part of the Methodist church’s Past Cases Review into abuse allegations. She had no advance notice of Thursday’s announcement by the Methodist church, which has formally apologised for 1,885 cases of abuse over the past 60 years. Despite media references to “historical abuse”, some of the cases are very recent...
Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Tchividjian had become convinced that the Protestant world is teetering on the edge of a sex-abuse scandal similar to the one that had rocked the Catholic Church. He is careful to say that there’s not enough data to compare the prevalence of child sex abuse in Protestant and Catholic institutions, but he’s convinced the problem has reached a crisis point. He’s not alone in that belief. In 2012, Christian radio host Janet Mefferd declared, “This is an epidemic going on in churches. … When are evangelicals going to wake up and say we have a massive problem in our own churches?” For years, Protestants have assumed they were immune to the abuses perpetrated by celibate Catholic priests. But Tchividjian believes that Protestant churches, groups, and schools have been worse than Catholics in their response. Mission fields, he says, are “magnets” for would-be molesters; ministries and schools do not understand the dynamics of abuse; and “good ol’ boy” networks routinely cover up victims’ stories to protect their reputations. He fears it is only a matter of time before it all blows up in their faces and threatens the survival of powerful Protestant institutions.
BOB JONES UNIVERSITY SCANDALS AND COVER UPS

We know from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice investigation into this matter that almost all of the cases of the sexual abuse of minors that took place in Catholic institutions occurred between 1965 and 1985. By contrast, in the last five years, the average number of credible accusations made against 40,000 priests is exactly 7.6. Currently, it's down to less than 1%. No matter what number you pick, there is no entity in the United States today, private or public, that can match this record..(Catholic League)

The Catholic Church's record of aggressive and proactive protective measures is unparalleled in any organization today. Since the beginning of the abuse crisis, the Catholic Church:

-has instituted a "zero tolerance" policy in which any credibly accused priest is immediately
removed from ministry. Law enforcement is also notified;
-has trained over 5 million children in giving them skills to protect them from abuse;
-has trained over 2 million adults, including 99 percent of all priests, in recognizing signs of
abuse;
-has conducted over 2 million background checks, including those in the intensified screening
process for aspiring seminarians and priests;
-has installed "Victim Assistance Coordinators" in every diocese, "assuring victims that they
will be heard";
-has conducted annual independent audits of all dioceses to monitor compliance with the
groundbreaking*2002 Charter for Protection of Children and Young People;
-has instituted in all dioceses abuse review boards – often composed of child welfare experts,
child psychologists, and abuse experts – to examine any claims of abuse against priests.
- the slightest suspicion of wrongdoing must be reported to the police, by order of canon law.

No other organization even comes close to implementing the measures the Catholic Church has taken to protect children in its care. In this regard, the Catholic Church in the 21st century is the model for other institutions to follow in the safeguarding of youth.
http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/ <not a Catholic site

The Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors was created by Pope Francis in March of 2014. The Chirograph of His Holiness Pope Francis states specifically, “The Commission’s specific task is to propose to me the most opportune initiatives for protecting minors and vulnerable adults, in order that we may do everything possible to ensure that crimes such as those which have occurred are no longer repeated in the Church. The Commission is to promote local responsibility in the particular Churches, uniting their efforts to those of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, for the protection of all children and vulnerable adults.”


thumbnailcatevtdf.jpg

Excellent response by a RCC apologist! :lol:
 
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epostle1

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OzSpen said:
Excellent response by a RCC apologist! :lol:
Thanks Oz. Apologetics is a hobby, I am not an apologist. I have more to post; I'm waiting for the witch hunters to mouth off.
 

BreadOfLife

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OzSpen said:
BreadofLife,

I showed NO prejudice against the RCC in the stats I provided as I gave you links to Protestant bodies as well, where sexual abuse has happened. However, it is a horrific statistic that in Australia 20% of RC priests are alleged paedophiles.

These are not stats I've invented. They came from the Royal Commission.

I agree with you that one clergy who is a paedophile is one too many.

And we haven't discussed the prevalence of HIV/AIDS among RC clergy.

Oz
Hmmmmm, let's see . . .

You made the following snarky comment:
"Perhaps the RCC needs to take a closer look at why sexual abuse rates are so high among its clergy."

You continue to ignore the bigger problem among the Protestant sects.
IF the numbers are correct - the problem in Australia is indeed a bad problem. BUT Australia only has 23 million people.
There are MORE than that in Southern California alone. The Unites States has upwards of 320 million - and the problem among the Protestant sects dwarfs that of the Catholic Church. Where is your "outrage" about that??

If you truly have "outrage" about this problem - then your posts wouldn't just be about the problem in the Catholic Church.
Ignoring the problem among the Protestant sects is tantamount to saying it doesn't exist . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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mjrhealth said:
Oh yes it does it proves that none of mens churches are from God for they all commit these atrocities against the innocent, and they will all be judged "all" of then even yours.
And the Bible proves that "Lone Rangers" are not part of the Church. His Church is a VISIBLE BODY (Matt. 5:14-16).

Is ALSO proves that there are no "Generals" in Christ's Church like the ones in YOUR little cult, "aggressivechristianity.com" . . .
 

Born_Again

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If this continues, you all know whats going to happen to this thread..... This is the one and only warning, my friends.
 

epostle1

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OzSpen said:
kepha,
That's a pathetic attitude towards those children who have been sexually abused by Roman Catholic paedophile priests. This article from ABC News, 8 Feb 2017, 'Child sex abuse royal commission: Data reveals extent of Catholic allegations' stated:
Faith should be shaken when we discover that 7% of RC priests in Australia are alleged to have sexually abused children. That's an outrageous statistic and there is evidence before this Royal Commission that the church knew some of it was going on and failed to act.
Oz
The Church did not fail to act, just not fast enough. The Commission, as reported, uses terms like "alleged sex abuse", and "claims made" but no where does the Commission list convictions. Thus the stats are meaningless, especially with bogus claims and steeple chasing lawyers. Remember, the media is at war with the Church and ABC News is no different.

It is ridiculous and anachronistic to expect modern treatment for cases that happened back in the 1960s and 1970s, when the standard treatment prescribed by therapists and psychiatrists of the time who were advising the Catholic Church as well as Protestants, Jewish leaders, teachers, coaches, fathers, uncles, etc. (who had equal or higher abuse rates) was to give them counseling and then reassigning them. Most bishops in the 1960s and 1970s (when the majority of the abuse cases occurred) were simply incompetent or unqualified to handle the situation. They were bishops after all. Instead, they simply followed the prescribed treatment given by the counselors and psychiatrists of the time: require the abuser to undergo counseling and move him to another assignment in an attempt to break the abuse cycle. Once again, this was the standard method of treatment for the era, not just for the Catholic Church, but for schools, sports teams as well as any other institution which had cases of abuse (including Protestants). Remember, until 1974, the APA (American Psychiatric Association) taught and treated homosexuality as a mental disorder.

The Catholic Church today is the model for the protection of children. The rates of abuse within the Catholic Church in the 1960s and 1970s was no different than any other religious group, including Jews and Protestants. The real reason why the Catholic Church was singled out, aside from her assets, is because of a hatred for her doctrine. The world cannot stand the Church's teaching on celibacy, an all male clergy, and her opposition to homosexuality. It is for these reasons, and these reasons alone, that the secular world will try and make the claim that celibacy led to the abuse scandal and that an all male clergy makes abuse all the more likely to occur. (which is nothing more than opinion)

I notice the Royal Commission had only one church in it's cross-hairs.


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epostle1

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Excerpts from SHINING THE LIGHT ON “SPOTLIGHT” the movie. Please read the full context in the link<

The movie “Spotlight” is bound to spark more conversation about the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, much of what the American public knows about this issue is derived from the popular culture, something this film will only abet. Therefore, the time is ripe to revisit what the actual data on this subject reveal.

When the Boston Globe sent the nation reeling in 2002 with revelations of priestly sexual abuse, and the attendant cover-up, Catholics were outraged by the level of betrayal. This certainly included the Catholic League. The scandal cannot be denied. What is being denied, however, is the existence of another scandal—the relentless effort to keep the abuse crisis alive, and the deliberate refusal to come to grips with its origins. Both scandals deserve our attention.
...It became clear that by 2011 we were dealing with two scandals, not one.
Scandal I was internal—the church-driven scandal. This was the result of indefensible decisions by the clergy: predatory priests and their enabling bishops.
Scandal II was external, the result of indefensible cherry-picking of old cases by rapacious lawyers and vindictive victims’ groups. They were aided and abetted by activists, the media, and Hollywood.


Regarding Scandal II, more than cultural elites were involved. “In 2011,” I wrote, “it seemed as if ‘repressed memories’ surfaced with alacrity, but only among those who claimed they were abused by a priest. That there was no similar explosion of ‘repressed memories’ on the part of those who were molested by ministers, rabbis, teachers, psychologists, athletic coaches, and others, made us wonder what was going on.”

The steeple-chasing lawyers and professional victims’ organizations had a vested economic interest in keeping the scandal alive; the former made hundreds of millions and they, in turn, lavishly greased the latter. But it wasn’t money that motivated the media and Hollywood elites to keep the story alive—it was ideology...

...There is plenty of evidence that Hollywood has long been a haven for sexual predators, both straight and gay. The same is true of many religious and secular institutions throughout society. But there is little interest in the media and in Tinsel Town to profile them. They have identified the enemy and are quite content to keep pounding away.

There is no doubt that the Boston Globe “Spotlight” team deserved a Pulitzer Prize for exposing Scandal I.
Regrettably, there will be no Pulitzer for exposing Scandal II.
 

BreadOfLife

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Born_Again said:
If this continues, you all know whats going to happen to this thread..... This is the one and only warning, my friends.
This was a thread about the moniker of "Christian" that quickly descended into yet another anti-Catholic diatribe.

Perhaps, if the anti-Catholics around here were warned about hijacking threads and turning them in to their anti-Catholic soapbox - as much as the Catholics are warned not to defend their faith - we wouldn't have so many arguments . . .
 

mjrhealth

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Perhaps, if the anti-Catholics around here were warned about hijacking threads and turning them in to their anti-Catholic soapbox - as much as the Catholics are warned not to defend their faith - we wouldn't have so many arguments . . .
Whoos doing teh hijacking,?? This is a christian forum for christians all you do is promote catholism not Christ whom all Christianity is about.
 

epostle1

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OzSpen said:
BreadofLife,

You do have a bit of heat in your response.

In Australia right now, there is a Royal Commission into sexual abuse in the churches. Yes, it is happening in Protestant Churches, however by far the greatest percentage is in the Roman Catholic Church. This news item from a month ago stated:

So more than 20% of the RCC clergy here in Australia are allegedly paedophiles.

More than 20 per cent of the members of some Catholic religious orders — including Marist Brothers and Christian Brothers — were allegedly involved in child sexual abuse, a royal commission hearing in Sydney has been told (Royal commission into child sexual abuse: 1,880 alleged perpetrators identified in Catholic Church, 7 Feb 2017, ABC News, Brisbane, Qld)
The Royal Commission in Australia is a fraud.

The Church had been required to undertake a comprehensive data survey.
First, it had to provide the total number of priests, brothers and sisters in all its authorities from 1950 to 2010. This number was not produced. Then it was asked for the total number of people who had alleged incidents of abuse. This is where the much-quoted number 4444 came from...

Third, the survey identified 1,880 “alleged perpetrators”, including 500 who were unknown (presumably not named). This resulted in an inability to be confident that there was not at least some double-counting.
Analysis of this raw data produced the overall figures for alleged abuse by priests and religious brothers and sisters, as well as the break-down by diocese and society. The figure for priests was 7%, which, if correct, indicates that 93% of all Catholic priests were and are innocent of child abuse...

Can anyone really believe these figures? They were obtained by dividing the number of “alleged perpetrators” in each category – distributed from the 1,880 total – by the total number of brothers in the order...

The real problem here is that the Royal Commission and its Council Assisting are happy to ply the public with raw numbers on different bases, unchecked, untested and unverified. After four years, and in the case of the Catholic Church untold hours of evidence in pursuit of prelates, it has not authenticated the vast bulk of claims or proven “alleged perpetrators” guilty or innocent. My impression is that it doesn’t want to spoil the impact of its numbers.

Where are the police in all this? The parents?

Despite 4444 complaints about 1880 “alleged perpetrators” the Royal Commission has heard evidence from only 261 witnesses in Catholic case studies...

If 40.4% of all St John of God Brothers were supposedly abusing the disabled children they were caring for at the Kendall Grange boys’ home in Morisset, south of Newcastle, why was there not a case study into that institution? It must have been the highest concentration of paedophiles in Australia, perhaps the world. That failure means we don’t know the truth or the reasons.

Well, the reason that Catholic order wasn’t investigated is that that flagship 40.4% figure was a fraud. When I got hold of the Church’s basic data in documents tabled in the Commission but not available publicly until yesterday, I found the figures were sixty years old. They related to the first incidents reported in the 1950s.

In the ’60s, ’70s and ’80s the figure varied from six percent to nine percent; for the 1990s and 2000s it was zero. What’s surprising is why the Catholic Church allowed its data to be misrepresented in this damaging fashion.

Luck also rightly questions the propensity to treat allegations as fact:
How many of the 4444 complaints against Catholic religious were in fact valid? Is it impossible that at least some were not made in expectation of compensation? Even less is known of the many thousands of private interviews with Commission members, who are not required to test the truth of complaints. In the case of Catholic institutions, 2400 individuals claimed abuse in private sessions.

Read more about the fraud of the Royal Commission.
 

tom55

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Born_Again said:
If this continues, you all know whats going to happen to this thread..... This is the one and only warning, my friends.
This topic is in the DEBATE FORUM. I see some good debating going on. :)

Yes. We know what will happen. Since the Catholics on this site are actively and forcefully defending their faith then it will be shut down. Just like the last 5 topics over the last several months that have heavy Catholic involvement. All shut down. Almost no other discussions are shut down. :(
 

tom55

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OzSpen said:
BoL,

If HIV/AIDS was bad among RC clergy 16 years ago, what gives you the impression that it would be better now when there is such a proportion of gay RC clergy and we know the susceptibility of the anus and rectum to infection?

Here's a 2013 report, Catholic Priests: It's 'Empirical Fact' That Many Clergy Are Gay (US News & World Report).

A report from 2011 had the heading, Vatican: Priests Have Been Raping Nuns to Avoid Hookers with HIV (AlterNet)

This is a 2015 article, ‘I Was A Gay Priest for 25 Years’ (Advocate).

Now I know why some people hate being identified as 'Christian'.

Oz
I am not left with that impression. I am simply pointing out the FACT that you provided an article from 16 years ago to prove a point AND the FACT is that you focused only on RC Priest, not clergy as a whole. You are showing your anti-Catholic bias.

Sadly, Protestant churches allow openly and ACTIVLY gay clergy AND allow them to marry which is completely against scripture. Look at the log....
 

mjrhealth

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Since the Catholics on this site are actively and forcefully defending their faith
Yes and we defend Christianity and our faith in Jesus Christ in whom teh salvation of all men lie, not mens fraudulent doctrines and religions. Why is Christ such a problem with you???
 

mjrhealth

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Sadly, Protestant churches allow openly and ACTIVLY gay clergy AND allow them to marry which is completely against scripture. Look at the log....
Do you really want to go down that path?? The list of your chruches sins against man is longer than the diameter of the earth. Where would you like to start??
 

mjrhealth

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The Royal Commission in Australia is a fraud.
Maybe you go tell the abuse victims they are frauds, maybe you go tell those murderd by you church it never happened, always opposing Chirst??