Why do we need priests?

[Giuliano]

Hi Giuliano,

I inferred it from your statements: "Actually, I have been told by the Holy Spirit some things are not my business."

I have had many wrong ideas and may still have. "I depend on the Holy Spirit to correct my wrong ideas more than to tell me new ideas."

Soooooo that is where I came up with "such an stupid statement".......from your own words!!

Since the Holy Spirit does not guide you in all matters why should anyone accept your interpretations of Scripture?

Mary

I never asked anyone to accept my interpretations. You do not have a sound mind if you think I said that. We're back to Timothy again which you can say doesn't apply to you.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[Giuliano]

Hi Nancy

Thank you for the Protestant writings on this of which I am already familiar with. It came 1,800 years late.

You should read Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian etc. who wrote on this matter 1,800 years earlier. I accept the teaching of the Church from 1,800 years ago. You accept the 500 year teaching.

Even a cursory glance at the history of the Apostles, so far as it appears in the Gospel records, reveals a certain primacy of S. Peter among the twelve. He holds the first place in all the lists; he has a precedence of responsibility and of temptation; he sets the example of moral courage and of moral lapse. Above all he receives special pastoral charges. J.B. Lightfoot

Historical Mary

I also ask if Tertullian is a trustworthy source? It seems he invented things at times.

Tertullian - Wikipedia

Though conservative in his worldview, Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas). According to The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Tertullian's trinity [is] not a triune God, but rather a triad or group of three, with God as the founding member". A similar word had been used earlier in Greek, though Tertullian gives the oldest extant use of the terminology as later incorporated into the Nicene Creed at the Second Ecumenical Council, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, or as the Athanasian Creed, or both. Other Latin formulations that first appear in his work are "three persons, one substance" as the Latin "tres personae, una substantia", ('consubstantial', in English), itself from the Koine Greek "treis hypostases, homoousioi"). Influenced by Stoic philosophy, the "substance" of Tertullian, however, was a material substance that did not refer to a single God, but to the sharing of a portion of the substance of the Father (the only being who was fully God) with the Son and, through the Son, with the Holy Spirit. He wrote his understanding of the three members of the trinity after becoming a Montanist.

Unlike many Church fathers, Tertullian was never recognized as a saint by the Eastern or Western catholic tradition churches. Several of his teachings on issues such as the clear subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father, and his condemnation of remarriage for widows and of fleeing from persecution, contradicted the doctrines of these traditions.

 

[epostle]

So if I prayed to my mum, dad or other friends who have 'passed' they would hear and my prayers would be answered?

That's not how it works. Your mum, or others who are with God, gives your prayers to God on your behalf. Then God decides how and when He will answer them, not your mum. I'm sorry this is so confusing.

 

[epostle]

Would you agree that the authority of God supersedes that of the Catholic church?

Would you agree that God gives His very own authority to sinful human beings in Matthew 28? KJV

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

The Eleven were given special graces to be Apostles, how do you reconcile that with their doubt? Is Jesus talking to each individual believer, or just the Eleven?

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, (the Eleven) saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

How do you interpret "therefore"? Is this in reference to Jesus having all power and authority granted to the Eleven?

How can 11 men, travelling on foot, without jet planes and helicopters, even reach all nations to teach them? In order for the 11 to accomplish this impossible task,
A) either the 11 were disobedient, or
B) the verse doesn't mean just Apostles, it means individual believers are commissioned to teach
C) successors are required.

A and B are not remotely biblical, C holds up to logic and reason.

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We take that as a promise from God. You are left with re-defining "CHURCH" and are forced to re-write and/or deny history. When exactly did Jesus abandon His Church, contrary to His promises? How is it that nobody noticed this monumentous event until the middle of a revolt in the 16th century?

 

[Marymog]

Clement of Alexandria seems heavily influenced by pagan thinking.

Clement of Alexandria - Wikipedia

Paedagogus

This work's title, translatable as "tutor", refers to Christ as the teacher of all mankind, and it features an extended metaphor of Christians as children. It is not simply instructional : the author intends to show how the Christian should respond to the Love of God authentically. Clement, following Plato (Republic 4:441), divides life into three elements: character, actions and passions. The first having been dealt with in the Protrepticus, he devotes the Paedagogus to reflections on Christ's role in teaching us to act morally and to control our passions. Despite its explicitly Christian nature, Clement's work draws on Stoic philosophy and pagan literature; Homer alone is cited over sixty times in the work.

Can you quote from his writings that shows he was a pagan?

Patient Mary

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

Scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. If the church is the congregation which one of the 2 billion Christians in the world are the pillar and foundation of truth?

Not the misguided, corrupt, and strongly deluded ones which are "anti-Christ", or that Jesus has "somewhat against." (Duh!)

I am sure you have read about all that too, but apparently have not taken it to heart. Nonetheless, Jesus is the Head, and the church is His body.

Jesus said upon this rock I will build my Church (singular). Which one of the 2 billion Christians in this world are the rock that Jesus spoke of?

Back to work on your theory....

None. What you say is how you read it, but you have misinterpreted and are in error (under that "strong delusion", just as it was foretold).

But what is true, is that He said, not "flesh and blood." He also said only by one Spirit, the spirit of His Father.

Go ahead mock, but you mock Christ who spoke it.

 

[Marymog]

I am no better than anyone else. You make yourself small. Don't blame me if you feel inferior.
Keep repeating things you know you don't know. Keep spinning those mental wheels.

God gave us minds to use. My faith is in God's goodness. He gave us minds so we can come to understand Him in part and then love Him. Yes, the purpose of man's mind is so we can come to understand about God -- not memorize what other men have to say on the topic.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You think God made you to be a perpetual follower of other men and what they say? No wonder my remarks made you feel as if I was being condescending. Your view yourself as inferior.

Wow.....Your Christianity is really showing with every condescending word you right.....and you write a lot of them. Sad for you!!

If I were to accept your interpretation of Scripture I would be following you.....You would love that....wouldn't you?

You believe you....I believe The Church.

 

[Marymog]

I never asked anyone to accept my interpretations.

Thank goodness.....hopefully no mans ears will be tickled by you.

 

[ScottA]

And who gave YOU the authority to tell me and the CC we are wrong?

Curious Mary

Everything that I maintain is clearly written, which according to the same word, you have seen but do not perceive, have read but do not understand.

But all that pertains to the building of Christ's church is revealed by "My Father who is in heaven."

These things are all written, but you do not believe it.

 

[Marymog]

Not the misguided, corrupt, and strongly deluded ones which are "anti-Christ", or that Jesus has "somewhat against." (Duh!)

I am sure you have read about all that too, but apparently have not taken it to heart. Nonetheless, Jesus is the Head, and the church is His body.

None. What you say is how you read it, but you have misinterpreted and are in error (under that "strong delusion", just as it was foretold).

But what is true, is that He said, not "flesh and blood." He also said only by one Spirit, the spirit of His Father.

Go ahead mock, but you mock Christ who spoke it.

Wow....I am in error which means the 2,000 year teaching of The Church is in error.

Since you are never in error all should come to you to find out what is sound doctrine and what is false doctrine???


You do keep me laughing kiddo....

 

[Marymog]

but you do not believe it.

Why would I believe YOU?

 

[epostle]

With all due respect, though Protestantism has acted as badly as the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, the WOE is first upon that hierarchy which FIRST behaved badly. If not for that behavior Protestantism would be a non issue. If men could have humbled themselves and treat Luther like a brother and listen to his beef with their "paying for indulgences" nonsense, things would have turned out much better. But greed and power is intoxicating. Even though the Presbyter/ Overseer is warned to NOT be a lover of money, the hierarchy did not heed. I am saying hierarchy, the little ones have no control over them. Luther was just a little monk in comparison.
But he did act in end as bad as them, very sad.
God Bless!

Luther hated the abuses by a few bishops, and blamed it on the doctrine. Actually, the Church gave credit to Luther for bringing the abuses to light, and banned all money associated with indulgences at the Council of Trent. No one could ever "buy" an indulgence, that is another anti-Catholic myth.
Myths about Indulgences

 

[ScottA]

Scripture gives many senses to the word "church". In Matthew 18:17, "church" refers to those in authority. A congregation with individuals in authority leads to chaos.

" And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the congregation. But if he refuses even to hear the congregation, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

Sorry Scott, but your rendering of Matt.17:18 is absurd. It's like going to a baseball game with no umpires. Or worse, all the players are umpires.​

Indeed, all things are absurd to those to whom the truth has not been revealed by "My Father who is in heaven" and rely on "flesh and blood" for counsel, against the word of Christ for the building of His church.

 

[ScottA]

Wow....I am in error which means the 2,000 year teaching of The Church is in error.

Since you are never in error all should come to you to find out what is sound doctrine and what is false doctrine???


You do keep me laughing kiddo....

That is true, and was foretold.

Keep mocking.

 

[ScottA]

Why would I believe YOU?

Apparently, you don't read so well.

I did not say, "because I said so." I said, "it is [clearly] written" and revealed by "My Father who is in heaven."

 

[Giuliano]

Can you quote from his writings that shows he was a pagan?

Patient Mary

Did I say he was a pagan? I did not. You seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem. Serious.

 

[Giuliano]

Wow.....Your Christianity is really showing with every condescending word you right.....and you write a lot of them. Sad for you!!

If I were to accept your interpretation of Scripture I would be following you.....You would love that....wouldn't you?

You believe you....I believe The Church.

I would not want blind people following me.

 

[Giuliano]

Thank goodness.....hopefully no mans ears will be tickled by you.

I was going to make a joke about gay priests, but I think I'll pass.

 

[epostle]

Matthew 18:17, "church" refers to those in authority. A congregation with individuals in authority leads to chaos.
" And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the congregation. But if he refuses even to hear the congregation, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

Sorry Scott, but your rendering of Matt.17:18 is absurd. It's like going to a baseball game with no umpires. Or worse, all the players are umpires.

Indeed, all things are absurd to those to whom the truth has not been revealed by "My Father who is in heaven" and rely on "flesh and blood" for counsel, against the word of Christ for the building of His church.

Sorry Scott, but this reply has nothing to do with the quote. Matthew 18:17 is the verse we are discussing. Your understanding of the earthly, physical church has no head, and when you separate the head from the body, what happens to the body? Jesus did not say, "if he refuses to listen you, take it to the congregation, or take it to the scriptures". He said, "Take it to the CHURCH", the pillar and foundation of truth. Rattling off pious looking irrelevant clichés is running away, it is not discussion.

 

[epostle]

Apparently, you don't read so well.

I did not say, "because I said so." I said, "it is [clearly] written" and revealed by "My Father who is in heaven."

So you claim to be a man of God and Jesus physically appeared to you and ordained you apart from any institution to tell us what the Father has revealed. Sorry, Scott. Scripture does not hold to this.

The Bible tells us who the "man of God" is. In all instances in the Bible, the "man of God" is:
A) one who is an Apostle or ordained as bishop by an Apostle, who ordains more bishops, and they ordain more bishops...until the end of time.
OR
B) one who is sent by God followed by signs and wonders.
OR
(C) Both A and C.
You have repeatedly denied the validity of sacramental ordination, so that rules out (A).

It is unlikely that God has sent you, followed by signs and wonders. So that rules out (B).

I know that you want to be a good Christian, and probably are. So if you are not a "man of God" as defined by Scripture, why should anyone listen to you to what you claim the Father has revealed to you personally? By What Authority?