Why do we need priests?

[Philip James]

No I don't think any of those things are ruling in any way. Ruling is laying down the law. It is being above those in your flock. It is seeing others as inferior

Dear Pearl,
That may indeed be how the world rules, but the shepherds of the Church have been instructed otherwise:

But Jesus summoned them and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt.

But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant;

whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave.

Any bishop or presbyter who forgets this and 'lords it over the flock' will have to answer for the abuse of their authority.

Just as we will have to answer for our response to that authority...

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Heb 13:17

And our response does not depend on whether our leaders abuse their authority or exercise it well. We are responsible for our own obedience..


Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king.

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.

For whenever anyone bears the pain of unjust suffering because of consciousness of God, that is a grace.

But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God.


1Pet 2: 17-20


Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

Good. Do not fall for the trickery of the enemy , as obviously P.j. is trying to draw you into his own false religion and errors, to destroy your soul, to drag you down with him in destruction.

You sir, need to control your tongue. Speaking evil of that which you have no understanding...

I for my part, forgive you.

May the Prince of Peace bless you and soften your heart!

 

[Joseph77]

Chronicle 4

forgiveness from the devil, is not needed, nor ever to be sought.

 

[Pearl]

Shepherds don't rule though. They feed, care for and protect and lay down their own lives for the flock.

That is ideally how it should be, but we know that it isn't always like that and so many church leaders - call them what you will - are self-important with large egos and a desire to control. They deny their congregations the chance to partake in the meetings when they should be encouraging their people to share a God-given word or prayer, or to minister to each other right there as the church meets together.

The early church managed without clergy for a couple of hundred years but many churchgoers today are spoon fed and denied the chance to be an active part of the body because of those who rule over them.

In a church no one person should be more important than another and definitely not rule over everybody else.

 

[Joseph77]

Shepherds don't rule though. They feed, care for and protect and lay down their own lives for the flock.

Good.
Jesus is Shepherd. We follow Jesus.

Jesus IS KING, and LORD. HE RULES

 

[Philip James]

The early church managed without clergy for a couple of hundred years

Clearly that is not the case:

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,

And here:

They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.

As you see, priests (presbyters) were indeed there from the very beginning of the Church.

Here is a little from St Ignatius, bishop of the Church in Antioch circa 100 AD:

"shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let
no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it."

This is the Church that was established by Christ, through His apostles...

This is the community that shares in the One cup, and the One loaf that Jesus gave to His apostles..

Peace be with you!

 

[Joseph77]

"Part 2 - The Sacrafice of the Mass - What Does it Mean?​

In Chronicle I, we thoroughly examined the doctrine of transubstantiation - its history, practice, and real meaning. But we have waited for this second article to answer the question: WHY? Why must there be present in the Mass the literal body and blood of Jesus? What purpose does it serve?

The answer is found in the startling words: "The sacrifice of the Mass is the same sacrifice of the cross, for there is the same priest, the same victim, and the same offering." (1)

And in the words of Pope Pius IV....

"I profess likewise that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory (2) sacrifice for the living and the dead." (From the fifth article of the creed of Pope Pius IV.)
That is the incredible truth! The Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches that in every Mass, in every church, throughout the world (estimated at up to 200,000 Masses a day) that Jesus Christ is being offered up again, physically, as a sacrifice for sin (benefiting not only those alive, but the dead (3) as well!) Every Roman Mass is a re-creation of Jesus' death for the sins of the world. NOT A SYMBOLIC RE-CREATION - but a literal, actual offering of the flesh and blood of the Lord to make daily atonement for all the sins that have been daily committed since Jesus was crucified almost 2,000 year////...."

Keith Green – The Catholic Chronicles

 

[Pearl]

Clearly that is not the case:

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,

And here:

They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.

As you see, priests (presbyters) were indeed there from the very beginning of the Church.

Here is a little from St Ignatius, bishop of the Church in Antioch circa 100 AD:

"shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let
no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it."

This is the Church that was established by Christ, through His apostles...

This is the community that shares in the One cup, and the One loaf that Jesus gave to His apostles..

Peace be with you!

The start of the Catholic church spoiled simple Christianity and made it's own rules and traditions and hierarchies. The Christian church was well established well before the Catholics claimed it.

 

[Joseph77]

The start of the Catholic church spoiled simple Christianity and made it's own rules and traditions and hierarchies. The Christian church was well established well before the Catholics claimed it.

The start was in wickedness, yes,
and today ? >>
"Conclusion
We could not find a more fitting conclusion than Dr. Boettner's:
"The 'Constitution on the Church' makes it abundantly clear that Rome has no intention of revising any of her basic doctrine, but only of updating her methods and techniques for more efficient administration and to present a more attractive appearance. This is designed to make it easier for the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches to return to her fold. There is no indication that she has any intentions of entering into genuine give-and-take church unity negotiations. Her purpose is not union, but ABSORPTION. Church union with Rome is strictly a one-way street. The age-old danger that Protestantism has faced from the Roman Church has not diminished; in fact, it may well have increased. For through this less-offensive posture and this superficial ecumenicism, Rome is much better situated to carry out her program of eliminating opposition and moving into a position of world dominance. AN INFALLIBLE CHURCH SIMPLY CANNOT REPENT.""

 

[Philip James]

The start of the Catholic church spoiled simple Christianity and made it's own rules and traditions and hierarchies. The Christian church was well established well before the Catholics claimed it.

Dear Pearl,

The Catholic Church is that 'well established Christian Church, as Ignatius' letters clearly demonstrate.

And all the ancient apostolic communities witness to this. The Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria, the Church in Constantinople...

If not these, then who? Who else can show themselves as a 2000 year old Christian community?

And if we are not members of the apostolic community where are we?

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

If Rome is your stumbling block, then come to the feast with Alexandria, come with Constantinople... But come!!

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

Peace be with you!

 

[Joseph77]

Oh my, oh dear, what can be done about this ?
The world accepted to imitation church, the false well established church,
because, oh, yes, the world loves its own...
If the church was of Jesus, the world would not, and does not today, accept it.
The false church does not accept those who are of Jesus either.
That is WELL ESTABLISHED through all of Scripture, which the false established church rejects as an authority.

The Catholic Church is that 'well established Christian Church, as Ignatius' letters clearly demonstrate.

 

[Philip James]

If the church was of Jesus, the world would not, and does not today, accept it.

Indeed

 

[BreadOfLife]

Good point. Jesus says the truth/salvation is (YES IS) HIDDEN from those educated ones. so they cannot see, even if told, even though someone rose from the dead to warn them.

Really?
Show me where Jesus says that we're supposed o be ignorant about God.

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

 

[Paul Christensen]

In both Old and New Testaments, there are three ranks of priests, which are commonly referred to as the high priests, the ministerial priests, and the universal priests.

At the time of the Exodus the high priest was Aaron (Ex. 31:30), the ministerial priests were his four sons (Ex. 28:21; the sons were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar, the first two of which were killed for abusing their priestly duties), and the universal priests were the people of Israel as a whole (Exodus 19:6).

The three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a high priest, ministerial priests, and universal priests. In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1), the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16), and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9).

So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24).

Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament.

This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term “priest” is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for “elder” — presbuteros — as any dictionary will confirm. This is any some Old Catholic translations render the word as “priests” where Protestant Bibles have “elder.” For example, in the Douay-Rheims Bible (the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version) we read:

“For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee” (Titus 1:5).

“Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him” (James 5:14-15).

We also see in the New Testament that the functions of the Old Testament elder — who served in the synagogue — have been fused with the functions of the Old Testament priest — whose served in the temple.

We can see the fusion of the two concepts in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:
“I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty [literally, “the priestly work”] of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Paul tells us that because he has been given a calling as a professional minister of Christ, he has a priestly work of preaching the gospel so that the Gentiles may be an offering — a sacrifice to God. This is not something only he has. Every elder in every church has that same “priestly work” of preaching the gospel. So Paul here conceives of the office of the New Testament minister as a priestly office. Notice that the hearers of the gospel in this passage are not depicted as priests, but as the sacrifice to God. Paul draws a distinction between himself and his work of preaching the gospel, and his readers and their duty of hearing it. It is the minister, not the congregation, who is here pictured as priest. The Office of New Testament Priest – Jimmy Akin



Titus 1:5
James 5:14-15
Romans 15:15-16

I should have said that the office of priest as a human mediator between man and God is not found in the New Testament, but is an invention of the RCC and was carried over to the Church of England when it broke away and became Reformed. But when the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) broke away they rejected the priesthood and went back to a board of ruling elders as existed in the early church.

I don't need a priest to intercede between me and God, nor do I need to pray to Mary to pass my requests to Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit in me, which means that I have God right inside of me. This makes any human priest or imaginary Mary totally unnecessary. In fact, for me, it would be a total insult to the Holy Spirit if I bypassed Him to consult with a human or some fairy-tale Mary instead.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nobody rules over me apart from Jesus. Church leaders are not mean to rule over the flocks but to lead, teach and pastor them. You need to get into a church where the Holy Spirit leads.

They YOU don't know your Bible - and neither does your ignorant buddy @Johseph77.
This is what the Word of GOD says about the clergy . . .

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you.

 

[Joseph77]

Little children barely three years old, and sometime younger, already know this (when they are raised right)...

You, are you supposed to be educated ? (I have no idea - did not see anything in your posts one way or another) ?

If you followed Jesus, you would already know and accept what Jesus says clearly >>>
Luke 10:21 - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke 10:21
In that same hour He rejoiced and gloried in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have concealed these things [relating to salvation] from the wise and understanding and learned, and revealed them to babes (the childish, unskilled, and untaught). Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will and choice and good pleasure.

Really?
Show me where Jesus says that we're supposed o be ignorant about God.
Chapter and Verse, please . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I should have said that the office of priest as a human mediator between man and God is not found in the New Testament, but is an invention of the RCC and was carried over to the Church of England when it broke away and became Reformed. But when the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) broke away they rejected the priesthood and went back to a board of ruling elders as existed in the early church.

I don't need a priest to intercede between me and God, nor do I need to pray to Mary to pass my requests to Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit in me, which means that I have God right inside of me. This makes any human priest or imaginary Mary totally unnecessary. In fact, for me, it would be a total insult to the Holy Spirit if I bypassed Him to consult with a human or some fairy-tale Mary instead.

Sooooo, YOU think that intercessory prayer is wrong??

The Bible commands us to intercede in prayer for one another (James 5:16).
You've NEVER asked anybody to pray for you?? The members of your congregation DON'T pray for each other??

Tell me something - how is asking a saint in Heaven (i.e., Mary) - who is a fellow member of the Body of Christ - to pray for you "wrong"??
When was she kicked OUT of the Body of Christ??

SCRIPTURAL evidence, please . . .

 

[Dave M]

Revelation 1:6
And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 1:7 E
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


if you are a born again believer you are a priest and a saint right now

 

[BreadOfLife]

Little children barely three years old, and sometime younger, already know this (when they are raised right)...
You, are you supposed to be educated ? (I have no idea - did not see anything in your posts one way or another) ?

If you followed Jesus, you would already know and accept what Jesus says clearly >>>
Luke 10:21 - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke 10:21
In that same hour He rejoiced and gloried in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have concealed these things [relating to salvation] from the wise and understanding and learned, and revealed them to babes (the childish, unskilled, and untaught). Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will and choice and good pleasure.

Soooooo, THAT'S what you got out of this passage?? That we're supposed to be ignorant??
That's NOT what this passage is about. God doesn't want you to be ignorant. YOU'VE done that ALL on your own.

This passage is about Jesus rejoicing at the return of the "Seventy-Two" whom He sent out. He wasn't praising God for THEIR ignorance,
On the CONTRARY - He was thanking God for withholding the Good news from the high and mighty and giving it to the lowly.

I can recommend a good, solid Bible Study, if you're interested . . .

 

[Joseph77]

That we're supposed to be ignorant??

If someone stays ignorant, like in your position, that's on them.
Gain the truth at all cost, is written. Until you do, if God permits, it is meaningless to you.

THe wisdom of the wise , of the educated ones, opposed to Jesus and contrary to God's Wisdom, is that ignorant ? THe world, like you, sees something great in man's wisdom and man's knowledge opposed to Jesus.

God calls what men call great , an abomination, as it is.