WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

[Addy]

From my observations, most churches have a "pastor" but very few have the other four ministries and as a result, are not healthy for the simple reason that if Christ gave five ministries it was for a reason which we have chosen to ignore. So the churches that are not healthy are those without the fivefold ministry. In other words, just a pastor.

I believe you are absolutely CORRECT.

 

[marksman]

It is unfortunate that the church is a parody of the real deal. In New Testament times, there was only one church in each town evidenced by the fact that the church was called the church at Corinth, the church at Ephesus, the Church at Ladocia, the church at Galatia, and so on.

You can just imagine a church with so many members having a vast number of men available to fulfill ministries. So having the five ministries in operation was no problem. It is today because for example where I live there are 45 different churches that rarely talk to each other except when they come together for things like Easter and Christmas and a monthly chinwag with the ministers.

One of the smaller churches called a meeting of all the churches to pray for the federal Election and about 10 people turned up. Apart from the minister arranging it, not one minister turned up.

A lot of them are so small say 20 people who are there to facilitate the ministry of the one leading them. There is no sense of leadership producing other ministries which is their main purpose. Having all those churches defeats the object of the body of Christ which is unity. Denominations are of the devil and God will have to clear them out before he can come back again.

I really believe that any blessing that comes to denominational churches is not because of anything the minister does. It is because of a faithful few who are holding out for something better and more biblical. There are exceptions to every rule but I much prefer the rule rather than the exception.

I have noticed that most Catholics say they are Catholic, not Christian and the usual question in Protestantism is "what church do you go to" mainly to find out if you are the same tribe as them.

 

[Addy]

Yep... What he said...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, you simply are in the sheep thief business.

Of course you fellas will poach Jesus' sheep, because that gives you power over them.

They follow you instead of Jesus, thinking you are Jesus' representative, just as you dupe them into thinking Jesus' mother is his representative.

Just remember, on earth you may pull it off, but NEVER in eternity.

Jesus called sheep thieves, thieves and robbers.

Take heed......

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

My request to you is simple....Please say "one Shepherd"....thanks.

Thank you fir once again showing that you are completely unequipped to explain John 21:15-18.

Your ignorance of Scripture is a pathetic as your adherence to false doctrines of men . . .

 

[Truther]

Thank you fir once again showing that you are completely unequipped to explain John 21:15-18.

Your ignorance of Scripture is a pathetic as your adherence to false doctrines of men . . .

You think you own who you feed.

I feel sorry for the folks in the soup lines you help feed folks in.

I bet you thought you were a General when you served troops too.

 

[Truther]

Why do they need to feed his sheep if he is the only shepherd?

He has volunteer helpers.

Not volunteer replacement shepherds.

 

[Truther]

If that is the case, why did he appoint the ministry of shepherd to the church?

There is no such ministry found in the KJV.

The modern versions have inserted "shepherd", as they debunk Jesus in John 10.

He appointed many minister types, but no(zero) replacement shepherds.

The RCC instituted this replacement shepherd idea so they can get us to tell our sins to them, etc.

 

[Truther]

No indication that they are.

Correct, so "pastors", by scriptural definition, are "elders", not "shepherds".

 

[Truther]

One.

Excellent!

Now, the next time some fella tells you he is your shepherd, you let him know you already have a Shepherd(Jesus), and no thanks.

 

[Truther]

I am not trying to be contentious but in Ephesians 4:11 we are told that the risen Christ has given us the ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher and Shepherd. That being the case, I expect to see the ministry of shepherds alive and well in the church if it is doing its job properly.

No, the biased phony modern version says "shepherd".

Why does the ancient KJV not say "shepherd"?

Because they knew there was only one Shepherd, so they called the elder, the pastor.

I would never, ever, call myself a shepherd to Christ's flock...that's TREASON!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You think you own who you feed.

I feel sorry for the folks in the soup lines you help feed folks in.

I bet you thought you were a General when you served troops too.

Ummmmm, nobody said that the shepherds under Christ "OWN" the sheep - just like the typical waiter doesn't own the restaurant in which he works, Einstein.

 

[Timtofly]

The church is made up of sons of God. That is the literal condition.

Why you all are arguing who the sheep and shepherd, figurative terms, are, is beyond me.

We are individual priest, yet we bring our families to a local church which teaches us at our comfort level. If we all had the same comfort level, there would only be one church in each town. It is humanity that cannot stand to be with other humans who just rub us wrong, that is the problem.

The first century church met daily as well. That happens rarely today, and some billion and million dollar ministries just sit empty most days.

Liberty and freedom and lack of a state church is a blessing. It is also a lazy excuse to teach whatever we can think of, except that which removes sin and deception from our lives. No Faith to keep people coming back, unless we can come up with some invention that holds their attention.

 

[amadeus]

This is a very interesting conversation... From what I can read... there seems to be an issue of semantics... (stressing too much emphasis on one word=Shepherd)... If you notice the picture on my avatar... you will see that my favorite analogy is that of the sheep and Shepherd.

I come also from a 5-fold ministry... of which the TEACHER was the pastor... but would not accept the role of Shepherd... He was gifted as a teacher... and he even wrote books... The problem was that after people would congregate to listen to him speak... that was it... The sheep would go back home and resume their lives with no sense of belonging or community... It was no different than going to the library to check out a book.

The church that does NOT have a Shepherd is NOT HEALTHY... and the wolves are free to roam and devour the flock... at will.

Sheep need to be nurtured... feed... cared for. Jesus calls Pastors to be those shepherds and they are ACCOUNTABLE for their flock. You are taking the word Shepherd and placing it on the level of using the word GOD. This is not a correct observation of the role of a pastor.

From 1976 until 2018, I had 8 pastors, at least pastors in title. Only two worked at all at being a shepherd [even though that is what the word, pastor, means]. The first one worked at it but he was mostly a boss. He rebuked me in front of the congregation because I asked him a question about where he received his authority. The last one was the only one of the 8 who strived along with his wife to visit everyone regularly, especially when someone was sick. In a power play using the excuse that he was 92 and somewhat forgetful they removed him in October of 2018. When I was improperly shut down for trying to defend him [he would not defend himself], I left the assembly and have been without a home church to the present. He was and is a pastor. He's been a widower since 2012 with no natural children so now I visit him once a week for Bible study and prayer. [He will be 95 next month.]The human powers did not want a pastor, not a real one, but they wanted the title and what they saw as a position of 'power'. My family was not the only family to leave at the time.

There are wolves around even when there is a pastor. I liken this watchman in the OT to the pastor...

"Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand" Ezek 33:2-6

 

[amadeus]

Well, you simply are in the sheep thief business.

Of course you fellas will poach Jesus' sheep, because that gives you power over them.

They follow you instead of Jesus, thinking you are Jesus' representative, just as you dupe them into thinking Jesus' mother is his representative.

Just remember, on earth you may pull it off, but NEVER in eternity.

Jesus called sheep thieves, thieves and robbers.

Take heed......

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

My request to you is simple....Please say "one Shepherd"....thanks.

But does it say here?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is unfortunate that the church is a parody of the real deal. In New Testament times, there was only one church in each town evidenced by the fact that the church was called the church at Corinth, the church at Ephesus, the Church at Ladocia, the church at Galatia, and so on.

I have noticed that most Catholics say they are Catholic, not Christian and the usual question in Protestantism is "what church do you go to" mainly to find out if you are the same tribe as them.

The Church STILL exists in this manner. Only, now we refer to the different locations as dioceses and parishes.
"Denominations" were born from your Protestant Fathers in the 16th century and after.

We Catholics say we are "Catholic" because it encompasses the meaning for "Universal Christian".
Remember - "Christian" is a just word that men invented in Antioch to describe followers of Christ (Acts 11:26).

 

[Truther]

But does it say here?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

Yes, a pastor is an elder, which was spoken of all through Acts(notice "pastor" never even mentioned again).

 

[Truther]

Ummmmm, nobody said that the shepherds under Christ "OWN" the sheep - just like the typical waiter doesn't own the restaurant in which he works, Einstein.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Thousands of not so good shepherds plus the Good Shepherd equals ONE Shepherd?

 

[BreadOfLife]

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Thousands of not so good shepherds plus the Good Shepherd equals ONE Shepherd?

Sooooo, you STILL can't properly exegete John 21:15-19 after ALL the opportunities I've give you??

Pretty pathetic - even for YOU . . .

 

[marksman]

No, the biased phony modern version says "shepherd".

Why does the ancient KJV not say "shepherd"?

Because they knew there was only one Shepherd, so they called the elder, the pastor.

I would never, ever, call myself a shepherd to Christ's flock...that's TREASON!

The original Greek is not a biased phony modern version and it is translated as shepherd in that one.

 

[marksman]

Excellent!

Now, the next time some fella tells you he is your shepherd, you let him know you already have a Shepherd(Jesus), and no thanks.

No one tells me he is my shepherd. Unless I see there is an anointing for that ministry I let it go through to the keeper.