Why were animals affected by the Fall?

[amigo de christo]

Why do you think animals are incapable of moral judgment?

speaking of moral judgment . It is true they cannot make that . But even some animals are wiser than many people .
You dont see the animals trying to change their sex . I dont see monkeys saying or thinking they are not the sex they were born .
THIS IS a very sad time we live in my friend . When even the animals have what appears to be more wisdom than a lot of mankind .
That is when ya know reprobation of minds has occured .

 

[Bob Estey]

Because most of them life in a state of eat or be eaten

How do we know what they are thinking?

 

[Bob Estey]

cause they were not made in the image of GOD , nor did they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil .
They just dumb beasts . Now lift those hands up and let the glorious LORD be praised .

If they didn't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then they must be smarter than us.

 

[Bob Estey]

speaking of moral judgment . It is true they cannot make that . But even some animals are wiser than many people .
You dont see the animals trying to change their sex . I dont see monkeys saying or thinking they are not the sex they were born .
THIS IS a very sad time we live in my friend . When even the animals have what appears to be more wisdom than a lot of mankind .
That is when ya know reprobation of minds has occured .

I don't know why they can't make a moral judgment. Does the Bible say they can't make a moral judgment?

 

[friend of]

I think moral judgment is a faculty of God's image. I don't think animals possess that faculty

 

[post]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam? Presumably they would have had an interminable lifespan like Adam and Eve before the fall. Why did a human decision affect the animal kingdom?

it is an image of Christ.

the other living souls (("animals" we humanistically call them)) have no sin. yet they are given for our sustenance, for our clothing, and under the law for the remission of our sins.
look at the first physical death recorded in scripture: God Himself took the skin of an innocent, spotless creature - i will say a lamb - and made clothing from it for Adam & Eve, who had confessed and repented of sin.

even as He Himself gave Himself so that we might have life

animals die for our sake - as God said to Adam, cursed is the ground for your sake
that is for our benefit just as Christ became a curse for us. Adam is not cursed; the earth is, to Adam's benefit.

amen, all things will be restored, and death will be destroyed, and He will resurrect all, those who have done evil to judgement, and those who have believing, entrusted themselves to Him, to life.

 

[post]

I think moral judgment is a faculty of God's image. I don't think animals possess that faculty

try kicking an anthill and see if they don't get upset with you, understanding that you have mistreated them.

 

[post]

They just dumb beasts

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam,
"What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?"
And Balaam said unto the ass,
"Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee!"
And the ass said unto Balaam,
"Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee?"
and he said,
"Nay."
(Numbers 22:28-30)​

algunas cosas deberían saltar de la página aquí, hermano.

• God simply opened her mouth. He didn't "add sentience to her" or "give her understanding" -- He just opened her mouth.
  • she clearly had all the faculties she voiced once her mouth was open; the only thing lacking was opening her mouth
• she has the capability to understand and judge ethical/moral qualities of actions.
  • she says what have i done to deserve being struck? she knows she has been ethically 'good' in her station, and that she stopped because she saw God standing in front of her. she was doing these things for Balaam's benefit, and comprehends fully that she has done nothing deserving of punishment: she knows fully well that Balaam is acting improperly
  • she in fact reminds him of this and he accedes to her understanding of the situation: she is in fact more wise than her human master.
  • all this, God simply opened her mouth -- according to the text. He did not 'cause her to have knowledge and ability to comprehend moral choice' -- she already has these things; she only can't communicate them freely with us. all that was necessary was God open her mouth, thereby, opening Balaam's ears to hear her.

we believe the Bible, or we don't.
=]

 

[post]

They just dumb beasts . Now lift those hands up and let the glorious LORD be praised .

according to scripture:
"dumb" only in the sense of being unable to speak.
not stupid -- that's what humans are.

the Biblical definition of "stupid" is hating to be corrected ((Proverbs 12:1))

 

[post]

Because most of them life in a state of eat or be eaten

do not men and women also?

 

[friend of]

do not men and women also?

No, they were not killing animals in Eden for food before the fall

 

[amigo de christo]

If they didn't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then they must be smarter than us.

Probably not smarter per say . But even the barn yard aminals knoweth what sex they are ..........that proves to us
how reprobate this world has now become . I know , I know stuff like this has always existed .
BUT NEVER has it been so widely accepted and now morphed into the laws of man itself . ITS not been like this . THIS world
is fast headed to the fullness of inquity . ONLY GOD Knows when that time comes , But when it does WOE WAIL
the world that rejected the love of the truth and rather had pleasure in unrighteousness .
I know in todays view most churches even dont believe GOD will judge this world . BUT HE WILL and ITS THE SON CHRIST JESUS
that shall tread the very winepress of the wrath of GOD . We better get busy correcting brethren in error
and pointing to Christ . Cause this ol world is fast running out of time .

 

[amigo de christo]

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam,
"What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?"
And Balaam said unto the ass,
"Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee!"
And the ass said unto Balaam,
"Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee?"
and he said,
"Nay."
(Numbers 22:28-30)​

algunas cosas deberían saltar de la página aquí, hermano.

• God simply opened her mouth. He didn't "add sentience to her" or "give her understanding" -- He just opened her mouth.
  • she clearly had all the faculties she voiced once her mouth was open; the only thing lacking was opening her mouth
• she has the capability to understand and judge ethical/moral qualities of actions.
  • she says what have i done to deserve being struck? she knows she has been ethically 'good' in her station, and that she stopped because she saw God standing in front of her. she was doing these things for Balaam's benefit, and comprehends fully that she has done nothing deserving of punishment: she knows fully well that Balaam is acting improperly
  • she in fact reminds him of this and he accedes to her understanding of the situation: she is in fact more wise than her human master.
  • all this, God simply opened her mouth -- according to the text. He did not 'cause her to have knowledge and ability to comprehend moral choice' -- she already has these things; she only can't communicate them freely with us. all that was necessary was God open her mouth, thereby, opening Balaam's ears to hear her.

we believe the Bible, or we don't.
=]

Well i am sure GOD gave her the ability speak for sure and for certain .
Yes indeed he stopped the madness of Balamm . But now allow me a parting word .
IF even a donkey spoke to me or to us and said ALAS GOD is fine with gay marriage and other religoins have thier own way to GOD .
I WOULD NOT HEED NO SUCH LIE . Not from even an angel . For that angel would be of darkness .
IN other words if anything comes and speaketh contrary to sound biblical Doctrine , to that JESUS , and to what the true apostels left us
in said bible , IT AINT COMING FROM GOD . HE Dont contradict HIS WORD , HIS TRUTH . Let us know this well
for a strong delusion has began and many are now being swept right into its all inclusive rivers of death and perditoin .

 

[amigo de christo]

try kicking an anthill and see if they don't get upset with you, understanding that you have mistreated them.

IF a man or a woman , or a child sat bare bottom on an ant hill , LETS JUST SAY IT WOULDNT Take them LONG to JUMP up
yelling and scraping themselves as though their bottom was on fire and their head was quickly catching flame .
Cause the ol ants are gonna be putting a bite down on them .

 

[amigo de christo]

try kicking an anthill and see if they don't get upset with you, understanding that you have mistreated them.

Try poking a hornet nest . Behold they come with many a stinger .

 

[robert derrick]

Why do animals die? I mean why would animals who are incapable of moral judgment, be subjected to the Fall of Adam? Presumably they would have had an interminable lifespan like Adam and Eve before the fall. Why did a human decision affect the animal kingdom?

Excellent.

I believe those who preach a fallen kingdom due to their sinning are proud and puffed up.

They think they are the center of creation.

The 6th day yes, but the previous 5? No.

Neither a lion nor a lamb care for what a man thinks. Especially since they don't have no care for such thoughts in the first place.

 

[amigo de christo]

The whole creation came under a curse.

The by the disobediance of one the curse came and ALL have sinned
but i got good news . BY the OBEDIANCE OF ONE can all who do believe be made RIGHTEOUS .
The world is under the curse . BUT THERE IS A NAME whereby we are set free from the curse of death . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST .
Now lift those hands up and let the LORD be praised and thanked .

 

[Bob Estey]

Probably not smarter per say . But even the barn yard aminals knoweth what sex they are ..........that proves to us
how reprobate this world has now become . I know , I know stuff like this has always existed .
BUT NEVER has it been so widely accepted and now morphed into the laws of man itself . ITS not been like this . THIS world
is fast headed to the fullness of inquity . ONLY GOD Knows when that time comes , But when it does WOE WAIL
the world that rejected the love of the truth and rather had pleasure in unrighteousness .
I know in todays view most churches even dont believe GOD will judge this world . BUT HE WILL and ITS THE SON CHRIST JESUS
that shall tread the very winepress of the wrath of GOD . We better get busy correcting brethren in error
and pointing to Christ . Cause this ol world is fast running out of time .

The Bible teaches Satan governs this world and is the master liar. I guess we have to be careful not to be taken in by any of his lies. He's the most subtle of all (Genesis 3:1).

 

[post]

No, they were not killing animals in Eden for food before the fall

i agree - but that was neither your point nor mine.
you said you believe animals to have no faculty because they are primarily engaged in eating or being eaten:
this is the same state as mankind, today.

if your agree that they were not driven by kill-or-be-killed in the original creation, i think you don't have any grounds to believe them to have been at that time without reason, and the grounds you gave for believing them to be so presently, equally makes man just as unreasonable & incapable of ethical behaviour.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Adam's kingdom consisted of the not only the earth, but along with it, all of
its forms of life too.

• Gen 1:26-28 . . And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the
fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

. . . So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he
him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God
said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and
subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Well; the thing is: there are examples in the Bible where a king's kingdom
became collateral damage when God slammed the king; resulting in death,
disease, famine, destruction, and hardship for a great many innocent
parties: man and beast alike. I don't know how that can possibly be
considered fair, but somehow the justice of God requires it to be so.
_