Why would God bother?

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54298)
That still doesn't answer the question, though.The question is why God would feel the need for children. Parenting is an act of men, not Gods. What would make God think that he needed children, when he can simply will himself to be as satisfied and happy as he wants?
If you don't mind me responding to your question here is the answer, but first let me say this. Your assuming that God has any need for children; God does not have any need because He is totally self sufficient. You are also assuming that parenting is only the act of men/human beings.Revelation 21:7 (KJV) 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Now to answer your question, if you have not already done so to avoid reposting,read my response to Shornaal when he made this ststement,"Another question I used to ask myself is what right does he have to meddle with our lives and judge us?"

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54300)
Now to answer your question, if you have not already done so to avoid reposting,read my response to Shornaal when he made this ststement,"Another question I used to ask myself is what right does he have to meddle with our lives and judge us?"
Well, aside from the statement that it is part of God's plan to have humans rule over the universe (I thought that was more of a Mormon belief? Aren't Christians very much against the idea of men as Gods?) I didn't get a whole lot of out. You described God's plan for men, but that was already well understood; the question was why. Why would God concern himself with creation and judgment? Those things are so far beneath him.

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54327)
Well, aside from the statement that it is part of God's plan to have humans rule over the universe (I thought that was more of a Mormon belief? Aren't Christians very much against the idea of men as Gods?) I didn't get a whole lot of out. You described God's plan for men, but that was already well understood; the question was why. Why would God concern himself with creation and judgment? Those things are so far beneath him.
The belief that the Mormon have that men will become Gods speaks against what the Bible tells us. If that were so, then it would mean that we would be separate from God. It would mean that God would not be one with us, and in us. The Bible tells us that at Baptism one receive the Holy Spirit, which means that the Triune God now live in that person....God and that individual now become one being. It's not that that person now will become a god anymore than a son becoming his father, but the son can be like his father. Glorified human beings will become like God, but not God the Father, but like God the Son since God the Father does not have a body, but God the Son does. We are to become like Jesus, because it was Jesus who became a human being, died and rose from the grave filled with the fullness of God.....this is the image we will bare. But at the same time while we will have a body like Jesus, we also have a spirit in us that lives in God……a human being is both spirit and body.You see we don't need to be a god because God himself will be in us. And even now, a child of God has God in them. This is the reason why when Paul before his conversion when he was persecuting Christians, Jesus said to him, "Paul Paul why are you persecuting Me." or when Jesus said, "in as much as you did it to the lease to these my brethren you did it to me." Why would Jesus say this? Because God and His people are one. God experience what His people go through....He knows how they feel, not only because He is God and knows and sees all, but more intimate than that, He knows because in some unknown way emotionally he too is experiencing it as well. I say emotionally, not physically, because God has joined Himself to His people in spirit…..we are one just as just as Jesus and the Father are one.Though God is above everything that He created, God’s is not filled with pride. God does not look down on His creation, because His creation comes from Him; His creation comes from His mind. God knows what human are capable of with His help; God’s desire is to exalt us. God’s nature is to use the weak and low (we are weak and low in comparison to the angels) to show forth His glory. God is concern with us and about us because as I have said before His plan must and will stand, even though we (human beings) failed to live up to our purpose. God is concern about His creation simply because God is Love….that is what God is about.I hope I was able to answer your question.

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54333)
I hope I was able to answer your question.
Well, it did clear up the bit about it being man's fate to rule the universe. Thank you!As for the question of why God would concern himself with creation, however, I am still confused. God clearly existed before man, and he was doing just fine. Why would he need to "live in us" the way you are describing? It seems completely ad hoc.

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54346)
Well, it did clear up the bit about it being man's fate to rule the universe. Thank you!As for the question of why God would concern himself with creation, however, I am still confused. God clearly existed before man, and he was doing just fine. Why would he need to "live in us" the way you are describing? It seems completely ad hoc.
I did answer that question as well, but I think you might be expecting a more complicated answer. The simple answer is love. God made us because before He made us He loved us. God knew us even before we were born....God had eternally decided to make human beings.God loves us and wants to give us what He has; God is love, so everything that He does is from the foundation of love. Because God is love He wants to share His glory with us. It might be hard for some to understand this, since this is not the way our world operates. Our world operates on performance; work hard enough and you might get a raise or a promotion....you have to earn love and respect in this world. In this world, love is conditional; I will love you if you do this or don’t do that……this world love is on the foundation of need….not the need of the individual that wants the love, but on the need of the individual that’s suppose to be giving that love. But God’s love is directed towards the individual. God’s love is self sacrificing; He loves us so much that He was willing to come in the form of a human being and die for us, in order to save us from eternal death.

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54352)
But God’s love is directed towards the individual. God’s love is self sacrificing; He loves us so much that He was willing to come in the form of a human being and die for us, in order to save us from eternal death.
That's another thing that confuses me. Why did God need to sacrifice himself/his son in in order to save us? Why couldn't he have just said "You are saved?"Also, you say that God is different from the world because you need to earn love in this world, but God loves unconditionally. But you clearly need to "earn" God's love as well. If you don't do certain things, like accept Christ as your savior, then you are condemned to hell - what kind of love is that? How is earning your spot in heaven different from earning a job promotion?

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54378)
That's another thing that confuses me. Why did God need to sacrifice himself/his son in in order to save us? Why couldn't he have just said "You are saved?"
Because the wages for sin is death; someone had to pay that penalty...if not us, then someone who was who's life values more than all human beings put togerther. Who else could pay this penalty other than God Himself. If we paided for our sin, then we would not be worthy of eternal life, since the only thing we deserve is death.(Lunar;54378)
Also, you say that God is different from the world because you need to earn love in this world, but God loves unconditionally. But you clearly need to "earn" God's love as well. If you don't do certain things, like accept Christ as your savior, then you are condemned to hell - what kind of love is that? How is earning your spot in heaven different from earning a job promotion?
Your confusing love with our responsibility, or what God expect of us. God loves all of us, but God hates sin. And He will not dwell in sin. God loves the sinner, but if that person refuses to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, then, because of His love that person will not inherit eternal life. In the kingdom of God, it will not be business as usual. We will not have hate, wars and all kinds of sinful behavior, because those who are in it have the nature of God in them. Sin cause misery, sin makes life unpleasant, not just for the sinner, but for others around them as well. When Jesus walked this earth, He would at times groan within Himself because of people’s unbelief. You cannot have God's nature in you, if you refuse to accept Jesus, repent, get baptized (a symbol of a change of one attitude towards God) and receive the Holy Spirit. God will not live in us if we are still in our sin, which is if we had no savior, then how could we become righteous before God?When Jesus died for our sin, He took on our sin and His righteousness was passed on to us. So when one receive Jesus as his or her savior, that person is regarded as righteous in God's eyes, because Jesus paid the price for our sin, and Jesus' goodness is now part of our nature….at baptism, one receives the Holy Spirit, which means that God the Father and God the Son now lives in that person, and the person also lives in God.

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54386)
Because the wages for sin is death; someone had to pay that penalty...if not us, then someone who was who's life values more than all human beings put togerther. Who else could pay this penalty other than God Himself. If we paided for our sin, then we would not be worthy of eternal life, since the only thing we deserve is death.
But that's missing the point. The price for sin didn't have to be death, and even if it were, that doesn't mean God couldn't have forgiven all sin without sacrificing his son. God is omnipotent; he can forgive all sin simply by saying so. Even if the price of sin for humans is death, that doesn't mean God can't do things differently. Adding sacrifice to the equation seems like needless cruelty.(verzanumi24)
You cannot have God's nature in you, if you refuse to accept Jesus, repent, get baptized (a symbol of a change of one attitude towards God) and receive the Holy Spirit. God will not live in us if we are still in our sin, which is if we had no savior, then how could we become righteous before God?
So basically, God hates sin much more than he loves us. So much more that he's willing to condemn us to eternal suffering for a finite transgression. Am I correct?

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54422)
But that's missing the point. The price for sin didn't have to be death, and even if it were, that doesn't mean God couldn't have forgiven all sin without sacrificing his son. God is omnipotent; he can forgive all sin simply by saying so. Even if the price of sin for humans is death, that doesn't mean God can't do things differently. Adding sacrifice to the equation seems like needless cruelty.So basically, God hates sin much more than he loves us. So much more that he's willing to condemn us to eternal suffering for a finite transgression. Am I correct?
No it is you that have mist the point, if you really understand what sin is and what it does you would know. Sin affects the mind, it affects our attitude towards God and how we treat each other. Simply forgiving us would not change our attitude, anymore than if I forgive someone doing something against me.Sin has a price, and that price is death along with everything that comes with it before we die, so believe it or not, or understand it or not, this is the way it is. Even the way your reasoning with this issue is the result of sin on you mind.And God is not condemning anyone to eternal suffering; there is no scripture in the Bible that says God is condemning sinners to eternal suffering. The Bible says eternal punishment, that's a different thing all entirely.

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54427)
Simply forgiving us would not change our attitude, anymore than if I forgive someone doing something against me.Sin has a price, and that price is death along with everything that comes with it before we die, so believe it or not, or understand it or not, this is the way it is.
Wait, first you say that simple forgiveness is not the way to change someone's attitude. Then you say that the price for sin is death - as though that is supposed to change our attitude. How could death possibly change our attitude? You'd be dead.I thought you had said we get around that because Christ forgives our sins - but then we're back at square one, where you said that forgiveness can't change our attitude. So how is Christ supposed to do anything differently than if God just forgave us? Christ's death didn't change Christ's attitude (he was always good), and our own deaths won't change our own attitudes (because it's too late for us once we're dead). I fail to see the connection.(verzanumi24)
Even the way your reasoning with this issue is the result of sin on you mind.
You know, if I wanted, I could say the same to you, but it's not really anything other than name-calling, is it?(verzanumi24)
And God is not condemning anyone to eternal suffering; there is no scripture in the Bible that says God is condemning sinners to eternal suffering. The Bible says eternal punishment, that's a different thing all entirely.
To me, punishment implies suffering. Either way, eternal punishment for a finite transgression is not just either.Also, you did not answer my question: Is it true that God hates sin more than he loves mankind? Is that why he refuses to live with those tainted by sin?

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54453)
Wait, first you say that simple forgiveness is not the way to change someone's attitude. Then you say that the price for sin is death - as though that is supposed to change our attitude. How could death possibly change our attitude? You'd be dead.
Death does not change one's attitude; it just means that is what we deserve. God has forgiven us of our sins, through the death of His Son Jesus, but we have to accept that sacrifice. If we don't, or should I say refuse, it means that we don't want to be forgiven, and since we don't want to be forgiven God will not force us to accept it; in His mercy He will remove our life from us and we no longer exist.(Lunar;54453)
I thought you had said we get around that because Christ forgives our sins - but then we're back at square one, where you said that forgiveness can't change our attitude. So how is Christ supposed to do anything differently than if God just forgave us? Christ's death didn't change Christ's attitude (he was always good), and our own deaths won't change our own attitudes (because it's too late for us once we're dead).
Yes, being forgiven does not mean that ones attitude will improve, but what God does for those who He wants to have a change in attitude, He opens their mind that gives them the attitude to change. In other words, God have to move that person to want to have a change of heart/mind. Of course, this opens up another round of question, such as, what will happened to those whose mind He has not opened? This question can also be answered, but there is not enough space here to address that (I have done a Bible study on this topic).(Lunar;54453)
I fail to see the connection.You know, if I wanted, I could say the same to you, but it's not really anything other than name-calling, is it?To me, punishment implies suffering. Either way, eternal punishment for a finite transgression is not just either.
This is not about name calling, every human beings except Jesus sin has had a negative effect on their state of mind. The only way one can really know this is that God have to give you a mind to know this.(Lunar;54453)
Also, you did not answer my question: Is it true that God hates sin more than he loves mankind? Is that why he refuses to live with those tainted by sin?
God loves the sinner as well as the righteous, but God is also a just God. It would not be just to allow someone who refuses to repent, give that person all His blessings, which that person will use to continue his sinful ways. Sinful ways that he will use against others, and even against himself. Why allow someone to continue to live and cause mental anguish to others and himself? Such a person, though he want to have his own ways is not happy, and because he is not happy, he will only cause grief for those around him. It would be more loving to take him out of his misery.

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54472)
Death does not change one's attitude; it just means that is what we deserve. God has forgiven us of our sins, through the death of His Son Jesus, but we have to accept that sacrifice.
But again, there is no reason why Jesus had to be sacrificed in order for our sins to be forgiven. The penalty for human sin is death, but that doesn't mean that standard must be applied to God. God could simply will all sins to be forgiven.(verzanumi24)
If we don't, or should I say refuse, it means that we don't want to be forgiven, and since we don't want to be forgiven God will not force us to accept it; in His mercy He will remove our life from us and we no longer exist.
You're saying that it's "merciful" that God will deprive all non-Christians of eternal bliss?The way you have painted this picture is fallacious. You are describing things as though it is obvious to everyone that the Christian god is real and that some people simply don't want anything to do with him - thus, it's merciful that God doesn't force them to stay with him. The reality, of course, is very different. Everyone who thinks that the Christian god is real wants to spend eternity with him. The thing is that some people don't think the Christian god is real. That is not the same sort of rejection as the one you are describing - they are not defiant, they are simply (assuming Christianity is true) mistaken, and so condemning them to an eternity in hell is for a mistake they made here in the temporal realm is in no way merciful.(verzanumi24)
Yes, being forgiven does not mean that ones attitude will improve, but what God does for those who He wants to have a change in attitude, He opens their mind that gives them the attitude to change. In other words, God have to move that person to want to have a change of heart/mind. Of course, this opens up another round of question, such as, what will happened to those whose mind He has not opened? This question can also be answered, but there is not enough space here to address that.
You're right, that is a very, very big question. The statement that God is in complete control of our attitude towards him makes it sound as though even those in hell are not at fault. But we'll discuss that another time.(verzanumi24)
This is not about name calling, every human beings except Jesus sin has had a negative effect on their state of mind.
Which is exactly my point - you have the negative effect of sin on your mind too. So I could criticize your argument on those grounds if I wanted to. But I won't.(verzanumi24)
God loves the sinner as well as the righteous, but God is also a just God. It would not be just to allow someone who refuses to repent, give that person all His blessings, which that person will use to continue his sinful ways. Sinful ways that he will use against others, and even against himself. Why allow someone to continue to live and cause mental anguish to others and himself? Such a person, though he want to have his own ways is not happy, and because he is not happy, he will only cause grief for those around him. It would be more loving to take him out of his misery.
Again, you did not answer my question. What matters more to God? Loving us? Hating sin? Dispensing justice?But to address what you wrote: There is nothing just about eternal punishment for a finite act. I consider that to be tautologically true: the punishment must fit the crime.Also, to bring up a point in another thread: If God truly loves us and wants to live with us, and the only thing stopping him is our sin, why did he even bother giving us free will?

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54494)
But again, there is no reason why Jesus had to be sacrificed in order for our sins to be forgiven. The penalty for human sin is death, but that doesn't mean that standard must be applied to God. God could simply will all sins to be forgiven.You're saying that it's "merciful" that God will deprive all non-Christians of eternal bliss?The way you have painted this picture is fallacious. You are describing things as though it is obvious to everyone that the Christian god is real and that some people simply don't want anything to do with him - thus, it's merciful that God doesn't force them to stay with him. The reality, of course, is very different. Everyone who thinks that the Christian god is real wants to spend eternity with him. The thing is that some people don't think the Christian god is real. That is not the same sort of rejection as the one you are describing - they are not defiant, they are simply (assuming Christianity is true) mistaken, and so condemning them to an eternity in hell is for a mistake they made here in the temporal realm is in no way merciful.You're right, that is a very, very big question. The statement that God is in complete control of our attitude towards him makes it sound as though even those in hell are not at fault. But we'll discuss that another time.Which is exactly my point - you have the negative effect of sin on your mind too. So I could criticize your argument on those grounds if I wanted to. But I won't.Again, you did not answer my question. What matters more to God? Loving us? Hating sin? Dispensing justice?But to address what you wrote: There is nothing just about eternal punishment for a finite act. I consider that to be tautologically true: the punishment must fit the crime.Also, to bring up a point in another thread: If God truly loves us and wants to live with us, and the only thing stopping him is our sin, why did he even bother giving us free will?
I don't really think that any answer that I give you will satisfy you, unless I say what you want to hear. Christianity is not politics and I am not running for political office; my responsibility and pleasure is to speak what God wants me to speak, even if it’s not pleasant to hear. And up until now I refrained from quoting any scripture to you, because I wanted to reason God's truth to you, in my own words. But now I think it’s appropriate to do so.God speaks through His people so if you reject their words, you are rejecting what God has to say to you.Luke 10:16 (MontgomeryNT) 16 "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you, rejects me; he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me." The difference between someone who is being called by God and one that is not, is that the one who is being called believes what God has to say, even if he or she may not understand everything in the Bible…..they live by faith (Godly faith, not human faith) and not be sight, or human reasoning, in spiritual things. I am not trying to insult you, just stating a fact.Galatians 3:11 (MontgomeryNT) 11 And it is manifest that by the Law no man is justified in the sight of God. because The just shall live by faith, Hebrews 11:6 (ASV) 6 And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. I realize that you will not accept what I have to say, because the natural mind is in direct up posit to God, but I have sincerely told you how it is. But I don't condemn you because what I am saying does not make sense to you. In fact, I am confident that one day, in God's time He will open you mind to His truth.1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Lunar]

(verzanumi24;54531)
And up until now I refrained from quoting any scripture to you, because I wanted to reason God's truth to you, in my own words.
I think I much preferred that.(verzanumi24)
The difference between someone who is being called by God and one that is not, is that the one who is being called believes what God has to say, even if he or she may not understand everything in the Bible…..they live by faith (Godly faith, not human faith) and not be sight, or human reasoning, in spiritual things. I am not trying to insult you, just stating a fact.
I don't understand. You are saying that God values the ignorant more than those who seek to reason and understand him? Also, what is the distinction between godly faith and human faith?(verzanumi24)
Galatians 3:11 (MontgomeryNT) 11 And it is manifest that by the Law no man is justified in the sight of God. because The just shall live by faith
That quote actually doesn't concern what we were discussing. That passage in Galatians is discussing whether the Jewish law is of any relevance now that Christ has come. It has nothing to do with comprehending God's nature.(verzanumi24)
In fact, I am confident that one day, in God's time He will open you mind to His truth.
Well, that would be nice. Though I hope you know, people of almost every other religion have told me something like this at one point. I figure I am about as likely to see your prediction come true as theirs.

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54576)
I think I much preferred that.I don't understand. You are saying that God values the ignorant more than those who seek to reason and understand him? Also, what is the distinction between godly faith and human faith?That quote actually doesn't concern what we were discussing. That passage in Galatians is discussing whether the Jewish law is of any relevance now that Christ has come. It has nothing to do with comprehending God's nature.Well, that would be nice. Though I hope you know, people of almost every other religion have told me something like this at one point. I figure I am about as likely to see your prediction come true as theirs.
I'm ending this discussion now; you don't believe anything that I say so it makes no sense for me to continue...take care.

 

[univac]

He created the material universe for the purpose of trust.

 

[Lunar]

(univac;55235)
He created the material universe for the purpose of trust.
What do you mean by this?

 

[univac]

Simple:Would you trust a stranger (me) to enter your house? What would you require from me?

 

[Lunar]

(univac;55252)
Simple:Would you trust a stranger (me) to enter your house? What would you require from me?
I do not understand where you are going with this, but I'll bite.I would require some assurance that you were friendly and not of ill intent.

 

[univac]

Nice answerHow would you determine that assurance ? so I may be trusted to enter your house If I had no assurance while trying to enter your house? Would you prevent me from coming in? What would your reaction be against me?