Work OUT Your Salvation, not FOR

[marks]

What does Philippians 2:12 mean when it says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

We work out (katergadzmai) what God works in (ergon). God's is the original working, our's is the performance of that work. He works in us to both will and to do what pleases Him. Which is to say, I've got a broken "chooser", I don't make the right choices, but God is repairing that. And He is likewise giving me the ability to do those things He's given the desire for.

We're on the hook to cooperate with God, as He transforms us, we are to not cling to our old ways, but to embrace God's new ways, to live in them.

Ephesians 2:10 LITV
for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.

Jeremiah 6:16a KJV
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

Much love!

PS . . . I'm blessed by your posts!

 

[Rockerduck]

Dear BeforeThereWas,

Here is how scripture says Christ's New Covenant truth is taught:

John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ's New Covenant teachings use "spirit" words. Spirit words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

Scripture even says that Christ's teachings are taught in "another language":

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

The truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings is reserved for ONLY the converted Elect who have received the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and have had their spiritual blindness healed. All others, including babes who can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2), will think that they understand the truth, but they will not. Because of a babe's spiritual blindness, Satan has no trouble deceiving the babes into accepting "another gospel" that mixes works with faith.

When a babe accepts Satan's false gospel, they will "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" by Satan. It is in this way that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church in the world - a church that masquerades as the true church. It happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Mankind does not direct their own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word (includes leavened bread, Mat 13:33) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Because unconverted believers (babes) remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, they will understand Christ's New Covenant teachings in a carnal way rather than in a spiritual way. You are doing this when you say that the "rain" is just literal rain. But when a person understands the spirit word "rain" in this carnal way, the truth of what Christ is teaching will pass them by.

Another example of a carnal understanding of scripture is how a babe understands end-time prophecy. The end-time prophecies are not teaching about outward one-time world events that happen at the literal of the age. The end-time prophecies apply within an Elect person and are teaching the spiritual events which led them to their conversion/salvation.

Paul said that the Elect have the end of the ages come upon them before they die. It was not a far off event for them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

When the ends of the ages come upon an Elect person, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain upon them. The Latter Rain will heal the believer's spiritual blindness which will cause Christ to spiritually appear to them. This appearing is the second coming of Christ that is taught in scripture. After Christ appears, He will judge the believer for the purpose of changing them spiritually. This judgment is taught in Mat 24:37-41 and in the last half of Revelation chapter 19. After this judgment is complete, they will be converted and will have had the end of the ages come upon them.

Changing subjects now: You say that you don't mix works with faith but from what you have stated on this thread, I can see that you do.

I will present below how scripture says Christ saves a person. The person has no say in the matter nor do they contribute anything towards their own salvation. Christ is the Savior and He saves them because that is the mission that His Father gave Him to accomplish.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

When Christ is ready to begin the salvation process within a person, He will come to them as the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. Paul did not ask for the Early Rain nor did Christ ask Paul if he wanted to receive it. In fact, at that time, Paul hatred Christ and it was not Paul's intention of ever becoming a Christian himself. But all that changed for Paul when Christ "suddenly" came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul the small measure of the Spirit. After Christ gave Paul the Spirit, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to Christ's authority over him and asked "what do you want me to do?".

After Paul was given the Early Rain on the Damascus Road, Paul became a babe in Christ. Paul became blind to represent his spiritual blindness. Paul was then "led by the hand" (the blind leading the blind) into Damascus (a symbol for earthly Jerusalem) where Paul remained spiritually blind for three days. As a result of Paul's blindness, Paul was unable to eat or drink the true bread from heaven or Christ's New Wine. The "three days" represented the spiritual process that Paul went through in Damascus which caused Paul to fall away and become apostate. Christ describes this process in Mat 12:43-45.

Because Paul become apostate while he waited for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain, Paul stayed at a house of a man named Judas. When Christ was ready to return to Paul after his three days were complete, Christ (typed by Ananias) travelled on a street named straight. This street represented that Christ's pathway was made straight to return to Paul. When Christ came, Christ poured out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain/Spirit of Truth) upon Paul and the scales fell from Paul's eyes. With the healing of Paul's spiritual blindness, Paul was told to "eat meat" so that he could be strengthened by the truth.

It is from the truth of what Paul consumed that judgment fell on Paul and sanctified (purified) him. After Paul was spiritually changed and purified, Paul was converted and saved.

It is in this same way that Christ will save all the Elect of this age. It happens by the will and work of Christ. The person contributes nothing, not even their confession of faith is their own.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

If Christ wanted to save all mankind today, He could do it. But in this age, Christ is saving only the Elect - those chosen by the Father for the blessing of being saved first. In the next and final age though, Christ will save the balance of mankind just as the prophets foretold.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Restated by Paul:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And here, too:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

All mankind will be saved before the last age comes to an end. It happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen and not because of man's "will".

Joe

You are part of the Latter rain movement in Pentecostal churches. You are mistaking the rain for agriculture for a spiritual definition.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You are part of the Latter rain movement in Pentecostal churches. You are mistaking the rain for agriculture for a spiritual definition.

Dear Rockerduck,
You are wrong. I do not associate with any apostate church, nor do I teach what they teach.

The Pentecostal churches are no different than any other apostate church. They are spiritually blind and are being deceived by Satan. The gospel they preach mixes works with faith. Just because they use the spirit word "latter rain" in some of their teachings does not mean that they understand it correctly.

The spirit word "water" used in Christ's New Covenant teachings represents the Holy Spirit. Water can come as snow, dew, rain or a flood. When it comes as a flood, it represents the judgment of the Holy Spirit that happens within a person during their time of conversion. The story of Noah and the ark is a good example. That story types the conversion process and because it does, Christ mentioned it in the judgment portion of an Elect person's conversion in the verses below:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (one believer with the Holy Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ/man of sin), and the other left (Holy Spirit/child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (one believer with two spiritual natures); the one shall be taken (the Great Harlot), and the other left (the divine nature of the Holy Spirit).

After I was converted in 2005, I left the apostate church I attended and have never gone back. All Christian denominations are apostate because as Paul said, none of the flock was spared.

When Paul made the statement below about the coming apostasy, he knew that it was going to affect all the sheep (the babes) in the churches that he started. He was greatly grieved by this knowledge.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Nothing has changed in those churches since that time except that they have waxed worse and worse.

Don't think that you are too wise or too smart to avoid Satan's deceptions because no one is. Everyone will experience their own "Day of Evil" before they will experience the "Day of the Lord" and be saved.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

One of the most perverse teachings of the apostate church is their Doctrine of Hell. With that doctrine, they make Christ out to be a monster who cannot complete the task that His Father gave Him.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

And because they believe that mankind has a free will ability, they teach that a person can resist God's "will" of wanting to save them. With this belief in free will, they are sitting in God's Temple claiming that they are equal with God. But God alone is sovereign and has a free will to do as He pleases. Everyone else's "will" is subject to God's "will".

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Because all the babes in the churches have to experience a time of "great tribulation" (their day of evil), Paul said that they should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

Joe

 

[bro.tan]

Then you are a believer in works-based salvation. If works of effort are required on our part to retain it, then works must also be involved in obtaining it. That is the problem one must overcome.

Yes, but it's not a problem

We have the EARNEST of our salvation, which is Holy Spirit, unto the day of our redemption at the rapture. To teach that the Lord would ever cast away His own Spirit given as EARNEST, by having withdrawn salvation, you will have an impossible task ahead of you in trying to explain that one away. Playing upon the Law is nothing but a denial of what Paul has already said about all this. The Power the Lord utilizes when working His work of sanctification within each of us, that is very real and enduring, thus the lack for any need that we apply our own inferior efforts in keeping the Law as some sort of contrived means for retaining our salvation.

If that doesn't address the thrust of your comments, then please clarify because what you stated smacks of salvational retention on the basis of personal effort...akin to saying, "Well, you gotta live it to keep it."

BTW

I noticed that you didn't quote one scripture verse from the Bible support anything that you are saying. But that's OK because I will quote some Bible explaining what the Bible is saying. When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

 

[Rockerduck]

Dear Rockerduck,
You are wrong. I do not associate with any apostate church, nor do I teach what they teach.

The Pentecostal churches are no different than any other apostate church. They are spiritually blind and are being deceived by Satan. The gospel they preach mixes works with faith. Just because they use the spirit word "latter rain" in some of their teachings does not mean that they understand it correctly.

The spirit word "water" used in Christ's New Covenant teachings represents the Holy Spirit. Water can come as snow, dew, rain or a flood. When it comes as a flood, it represents the judgment of the Holy Spirit that happens within a person during their time of conversion. The story of Noah and the ark is a good example. That story types the conversion process and because it does, Christ mentioned it in the judgment portion of an Elect person's conversion in the verses below:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (one believer with the Holy Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ/man of sin), and the other left (Holy Spirit/child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (one believer with two spiritual natures); the one shall be taken (the Great Harlot), and the other left (the divine nature of the Holy Spirit).

After I was converted in 2005, I left the apostate church I attended and have never gone back. All Christian denominations are apostate because as Paul said, none of the flock was spared.

When Paul made the statement below about the coming apostasy, he knew that it was going to affect all the sheep (the babes) in the churches that he started. He was greatly grieved by this knowledge.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Nothing has changed in those churches since that time except that they have waxed worse and worse.

Don't think that you are too wise or too smart to avoid Satan's deceptions because no one is. Everyone will experience their own "Day of Evil" before they will experience the "Day of the Lord" and be saved.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

One of the most perverse teachings of the apostate church is their Doctrine of Hell. With that doctrine, they make Christ out to be a monster who cannot complete the task that His Father gave Him.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

And because they believe that mankind has a free will ability, they teach that a person can resist God's "will" of wanting to save them. With this belief in free will, they are sitting in God's Temple claiming that they are equal with God. But God alone is sovereign and has a free will to do as He pleases. Everyone else's "will" is subject to God's "will".

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Because all the babes in the churches have to experience a time of "great tribulation" (their day of evil), Paul said that they should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

Joe

Then why or where were you taught to use the term "latter rain" and "early rain" instead of saying the Holy Spirit? Google it yourself. It was from the Latter rain movement. If you are not part of this, why are you using their terminology?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Then why or where were you taught to use the term "latter rain" and "early rain" instead of saying the Holy Spirit? Google it yourself. It was from the Latter rain movement. If you are not part of this, why are you using their terminology?

Dear Rockerduck,
The spirit words Early Rain and Latter Rain are used in the farming analogy that Christ uses to teach certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James is not talking about literal rain and farming. James is talking about how Christ converts each of the Elect. The precious fruit of the earth is wheat and wheat represents the Elect. To be made ready for harvest into the Kingdom of Heaven, an Elect person must receive both the Early and Latter Rains. When Christ comes to a person the first time, He gives them the Early Rain and they enter the church as a babe. After a time of waiting, Christ returns and gives them the Latter Rain to make them ready for harvest. Salvation requires Christ to come to a person TWO times.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (voice of Christ) and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed/scales removed from their eyes) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed (talking about an apostate believer).

The same thing is taught here:

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in a fallen away condition).

The time a babe will spend in between the Early and Latter Rains is described as a time of drought that was typed by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. For that reason, James adds it to his teaching on the Early and Latter Rains in chapter 5:

James 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain (Latter Rain), and the earth brought forth her fruit (conversion of the Elect).

The Early Rain is a small amount of the Spirit. It is what gives an unbeliever their faith and makes them a "babe". It is given in "measure" and it not the baptism. The apostate churches of the world are full of apostate babes who are spiritually blind and are following Satan instead of Christ. For those of them who are Elect, they are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain (even if they do not know that they are waiting).

The Latter Rain is the baptism and it comes in power/strength. It is presented as a great or plentiful rain/showers.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Can you understand what this verse below is teaching? It is written in Christ's spiritual language.

Prov 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

The "false gift" is a false prophet who teaches false truth. The "clouds" represents a witness of Christ. The "wind" represent doctrine. The verse is saying that a person who teaches false truths is like a witness for Christ who teaches doctrine without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Because all babes cannot understand the spiritual language of Christ, they will easily be deceived by Satan and will accept his carnally pleasing lies. No babe can avoid it happening to them. For that reason, we are at the mercy of Christ to "come again" and save us.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It is a very humbling experience for an Elect babe when Christ heals their spiritual blindness and they can see clearly for the first time. When that day came for me, I realized that I had been deceived by Satan most of my Christian life. It was a day of great spiritual earthquakes with thunder and lightning - truly the best day of my life.

This verse applies:

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

One more thought: The marriage analogy used in scripture teaches the two times Christ must come to a person to save them. The first time Christ comes, He gives the person a small measure of the Spirit which makes them into a faithful virgin. The virgin then has to wait while the Bridegroom goes away and prepares a home for them. While the virgin waits, she spiritually fornicates with Satan and becomes unfaithful. To correct her unfaithfulness (if they are Elect), Christ will come to them a second time and give them the baptism of the Spirit. With the baptism, the Bridegroom will appear and gather His restored virgin to heaven for the wedding.

The gathering to heaven event is shown here, too:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (time between the Early and Latter Rain spent under Satan deceptions) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun, moon and stars are spirit words used by the celestial analogy that teaches from where a person receives their beliefs/truth. The natural sun is Satan and the natural moon is the Old Covenant of Law (man's works) and the stars are fallen angels (unclean spirits). The natural sun, moon and stars are said to be darkened because the believer will no longer receive their truth from them. They will now receive their truth from Christ, the Sun of righteousness.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness (Christ) arise with healing in his wings (time of conversion); and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Joe

 

[pandaflower]

I see the admonition, work out your salvation, as directing us to live the gospel.
While working in the name of Jesus does not save us,I think doing good works as we follow God's leading us to do so is how we represent Christ on earth.

 

[Rockerduck]

Dear Rockerduck,
The spirit words Early Rain and Latter Rain are used in the farming analogy that Christ uses to teach certain aspects of the pathway to salvation.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James is not talking about literal rain and farming. James is talking about how Christ converts each of the Elect. The precious fruit of the earth is wheat and wheat represents the Elect. To be made ready for harvest into the Kingdom of Heaven, an Elect person must receive both the Early and Latter Rains. When Christ comes to a person the first time, He gives them the Early Rain and they enter the church as a babe. After a time of waiting, Christ returns and gives them the Latter Rain to make them ready for harvest. Salvation requires Christ to come to a person TWO times.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (voice of Christ) and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed/scales removed from their eyes) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed (talking about an apostate believer).

The same thing is taught here:

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in a fallen away condition).

The time a babe will spend in between the Early and Latter Rains is described as a time of drought that was typed by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. For that reason, James adds it to his teaching on the Early and Latter Rains in chapter 5:

James 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain (Latter Rain), and the earth brought forth her fruit (conversion of the Elect).

The Early Rain is a small amount of the Spirit. It is what gives an unbeliever their faith and makes them a "babe". It is given in "measure" and it not the baptism. The apostate churches of the world are full of apostate babes who are spiritually blind and are following Satan instead of Christ. For those of them who are Elect, they are waiting for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain (even if they do not know that they are waiting).

The Latter Rain is the baptism and it comes in power/strength. It is presented as a great or plentiful rain/showers.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Can you understand what this verse below is teaching? It is written in Christ's spiritual language.

Prov 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

The "false gift" is a false prophet who teaches false truth. The "clouds" represents a witness of Christ. The "wind" represent doctrine. The verse is saying that a person who teaches false truths is like a witness for Christ who teaches doctrine without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Because all babes cannot understand the spiritual language of Christ, they will easily be deceived by Satan and will accept his carnally pleasing lies. No babe can avoid it happening to them. For that reason, we are at the mercy of Christ to "come again" and save us.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It is a very humbling experience for an Elect babe when Christ heals their spiritual blindness and they can see clearly for the first time. When that day came for me, I realized that I had been deceived by Satan most of my Christian life. It was a day of great spiritual earthquakes with thunder and lightning - truly the best day of my life.

This verse applies:

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

One more thought: The marriage analogy used in scripture teaches the two times Christ must come to a person to save them. The first time Christ comes, He gives the person a small measure of the Spirit which makes them into a faithful virgin. The virgin then has to wait while the Bridegroom goes away and prepares a home for them. While the virgin waits, she spiritually fornicates with Satan and becomes unfaithful. To correct her unfaithfulness (if they are Elect), Christ will come to them a second time and give them the baptism of the Spirit. With the baptism, the Bridegroom will appear and gather His restored virgin to heaven for the wedding.

The gathering to heaven event is shown here, too:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (time between the Early and Latter Rain spent under Satan deceptions) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun, moon and stars are spirit words used by the celestial analogy that teaches from where a person receives their beliefs/truth. The natural sun is Satan and the natural moon is the Old Covenant of Law (man's works) and the stars are fallen angels (unclean spirits). The natural sun, moon and stars are said to be darkened because the believer will no longer receive their truth from them. They will now receive their truth from Christ, the Sun of righteousness.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness (Christ) arise with healing in his wings (time of conversion); and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Joe

Sorry Joe,
Scripture speaks for itself and is not up to private interpretation. The Apostle Paul made it clear that if another gospel is preached other than his, let them be accursed. Gal.1:8. No place in the bible did Jesus say, "early rain". No where did the Apostle Paul say, "early rain". James 5:7 does not say "early rain" in my bible and it's not for you to interpret.
Where did you learn this, once again?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Dear BeforeThereWas,

Here is how scripture says Christ's New Covenant truth is taught:

John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ's New Covenant teachings use "spirit" words. Spirit words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

Scripture even says that Christ's teachings are taught in "another language":

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

The truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings is reserved for ONLY the converted Elect who have received the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and have had their spiritual blindness healed. All others, including babes who can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2), will think that they understand the truth, but they will not. Because of a babe's spiritual blindness, Satan has no trouble deceiving the babes into accepting "another gospel" that mixes works with faith.

When a babe accepts Satan's false gospel, they will "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" by Satan. It is in this way that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church in the world - a church that masquerades as the true church. It happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Mankind does not direct their own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word (includes leavened bread, Mat 13:33) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Because unconverted believers (babes) remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, they will understand Christ's New Covenant teachings in a carnal way rather than in a spiritual way. You are doing this when you say that the "rain" is just literal rain. But when a person understands the spirit word "rain" in this carnal way, the truth of what Christ is teaching will pass them by.

Another example of a carnal understanding of scripture is how a babe understands end-time prophecy. The end-time prophecies are not teaching about outward one-time world events that happen at the literal of the age. The end-time prophecies apply within an Elect person and are teaching the spiritual events which led them to their conversion/salvation.

Paul said that the Elect have the end of the ages come upon them before they die. It was not a far off event for them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

When the ends of the ages come upon an Elect person, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain upon them. The Latter Rain will heal the believer's spiritual blindness which will cause Christ to spiritually appear to them. This appearing is the second coming of Christ that is taught in scripture. After Christ appears, He will judge the believer for the purpose of changing them spiritually. This judgment is taught in Mat 24:37-41 and in the last half of Revelation chapter 19. After this judgment is complete, they will be converted and will have had the end of the ages come upon them.

Changing subjects now: You say that you don't mix works with faith but from what you have stated on this thread, I can see that you do.

I will present below how scripture says Christ saves a person. The person has no say in the matter nor do they contribute anything towards their own salvation. Christ is the Savior and He saves them because that is the mission that His Father gave Him to accomplish.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

When Christ is ready to begin the salvation process within a person, He will come to them as the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. Paul did not ask for the Early Rain nor did Christ ask Paul if he wanted to receive it. In fact, at that time, Paul hatred Christ and it was not Paul's intention of ever becoming a Christian himself. But all that changed for Paul when Christ "suddenly" came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul the small measure of the Spirit. After Christ gave Paul the Spirit, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to Christ's authority over him and asked "what do you want me to do?".

After Paul was given the Early Rain on the Damascus Road, Paul became a babe in Christ. Paul became blind to represent his spiritual blindness. Paul was then "led by the hand" (the blind leading the blind) into Damascus (a symbol for earthly Jerusalem) where Paul remained spiritually blind for three days. As a result of Paul's blindness, Paul was unable to eat or drink the true bread from heaven or Christ's New Wine. The "three days" represented the spiritual process that Paul went through in Damascus which caused Paul to fall away and become apostate. Christ describes this process in Mat 12:43-45.

Because Paul become apostate while he waited for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain, Paul stayed at a house of a man named Judas. When Christ was ready to return to Paul after his three days were complete, Christ (typed by Ananias) travelled on a street named straight. This street represented that Christ's pathway was made straight to return to Paul. When Christ came, Christ poured out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain/Spirit of Truth) upon Paul and the scales fell from Paul's eyes. With the healing of Paul's spiritual blindness, Paul was told to "eat meat" so that he could be strengthened by the truth.

It is from the truth of what Paul consumed that judgment fell on Paul and sanctified (purified) him. After Paul was spiritually changed and purified, Paul was converted and saved.

It is in this same way that Christ will save all the Elect of this age. It happens by the will and work of Christ. The person contributes nothing, not even their confession of faith is their own.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

If Christ wanted to save all mankind today, He could do it. But in this age, Christ is saving only the Elect - those chosen by the Father for the blessing of being saved first. In the next and final age though, Christ will save the balance of mankind just as the prophets foretold.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Restated by Paul:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And here, too:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

All mankind will be saved before the last age comes to an end. It happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen and not because of man's "will".

Joe

Never mind. We're talking past each other. Your fixation on the concept of "latter rain" is prolific. I'm not so fixated on the types since I focus upon the Person of it all. Thanks for sharing.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Yes, but it's not a problem

I noticed that you didn't quote one scripture verse from the Bible support anything that you are saying. But that's OK because I will quote some Bible explaining what the Bible is saying. When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws.

No. I disagree.

I have said that following the other Laws is good to do, such as placing a barrier around the edges of one's roof and so many other items that nobody today ever looks at with a desire to obey, including the garments of only one type material. The good of it is in the pleasure one may experience through it, but to say to others that they should do the same...no.

These discussions from those who are in favor of following even just portions of the Mosaic Law, excluding the sacrificial and priestly stuff, they never talk about the absurdity undergirding their propositions along this line, for there are many. Paul made it clear that if one is going to practice adherence to the Law as anything but a personal preference for conduct in their own lives, they are guilty of ALL the Law and under its bondage and condemnation due to having broken just one little point of it...perhaps by not knowing of it or choosing to not consider it valid for adherence. The Law is a trap to those who try to follow it with a mind full of ignorance and incomprehension of the fact that the Law is not some sort of play-thing. It's a deadly force that is still VERY valid today as the source of indictment against all unbelievers because of their sins still being upon themselves rather than Christ should they die in that state.

So, if I were you, I'd be very careful about juggling with glee the Law. It's serious and deadly, like trying to juggle vials of nitroglycerin that's always on the edge of stability for jostling about. I love and respect the Mosaic Law, warning others to handle it carefully and with the greatest of reverence, but to not fear it since it's power, with our being in Christ, no longer holds sway over us. The danger rests when one makes that Law into something that doesn't apply to us today.

Why?

Simply stated, the Law Giver is the One Who dwells within us, working His perfect, superior and relevant-to-us Law through us that is greater than that written by Moses. Paul spoke about the weaknesses and inferiority of the Law of Moses in relation to that which is within us now. Looking unto the Lord for His perfect Work through us is what our focus should be, not on the external that is written in the ordinances of code for conduct delivered ONLY to Israel, never to any Gentile nation, for it was by that code that Israel was set apart from those other nations and peoples, and to whom the Gentiles had to join with in order to be saved. That too goes from hardly ever to never discussed by the false teaching "pastors" behind pulpits.

So, quote away, my friend, but you will only convey that which is inferior except that it come from He Who is within as it applies to your life and what He wishes to work through you. None of the scriptures are false, but Paul pointed out that there is a measure of inferiority and superiority because of to whom each dispensation applies. If you can't differentiate that, then I would encourage you to study more deeply, because you need it. We all have needs, so that's not saying that you are less than anyone else. I'm just pointing out that your lack of mention for that which is superior, that speaks loud volumes to the lack in your presentation and focus.

BTW

 

[FaithWillDo]

Sorry Joe,
Scripture speaks for itself and is not up to private interpretation. The Apostle Paul made it clear that if another gospel is preached other than his, let them be accursed. Gal.1:8. No place in the bible did Jesus say, "early rain". No where did the Apostle Paul say, "early rain". James 5:7 does not say "early rain" in my bible and it's not for you to interpret.
Where did you learn this, once again?

Dear Rockerduck,
I learned about the Early and Latter Rain concept strictly from scripture. As for Christ not mentioning those terms, He does because all of scripture comes from Christ who is God's Word.

Here is a scripture in which Christ refers to the Early and Latter Rains in the book of Matthew:

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just (Latter Rain) and on the unjust (Early Rain).

The Latter Rain is what brings judgment to the child of the Devil. It's what completes an Elect person's conversion. The Early Rain does not bring judgment and will leave the babe unconverted.

Christ uses the Early and Latter Rain concept as it relates to judgment in the two verses below:

Mat 7:25 And the rain (Latter Rain) descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And here:

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained (Latter Rain) fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Paul refers to the Early and Latter Rains here:

Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain (Early & Latter Rain) from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Paul refers to the Early Rain here:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth (mankind) which drinketh in the rain (Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs (a babe in Christ) meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Christ calls "many" people to be saints. He does so by giving them the Early Rain. The Early Rain "cometh oft upon it".

This verse below applies to the Early Rain on the "herbs":

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Below is a teaching from Christ that teaches about spiritual blindness as it relates to the Early and Latter Rain concept:

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they brought a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes (Early Rain), and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes (Latter Rain), and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Below is another teaching from Christ that teaches when a believer comes out from being condemned by the Law. It also uses the Early and Latter Rain concept:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground (Early Rain), as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground (Latter Rain). 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Here is a short one:

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken (Early Rain): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (Latter Rain).

The concept taught by the Early and Latter Rains analogy is at the core of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). It is not understood by apostate babes and is purposefully hidden from their understanding. Why? So that the babes who can only draw milk will "fall backward, be broken, and snared and taken" by Satan (Isa 28:9-12).

Joe

 

[Rockerduck]

Dear Rockerduck,
I learned about the Early and Latter Rain concept strictly from scripture. As for Christ not mentioning those terms, He does because all of scripture comes from Christ who is God's Word.

Here is a scripture in which Christ refers to the Early and Latter Rains in the book of Matthew:

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just (Latter Rain) and on the unjust (Early Rain).

The Latter Rain is what brings judgment to the child of the Devil. It's what completes an Elect person's conversion. The Early Rain does not bring judgment and will leave the babe unconverted.

Christ uses the Early and Latter Rain concept as it relates to judgment in the two verses below:

Mat 7:25 And the rain (Latter Rain) descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And here:

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained (Latter Rain) fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Paul refers to the Early and Latter Rains here:

Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain (Early & Latter Rain) from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Paul refers to the Early Rain here:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth (mankind) which drinketh in the rain (Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs (a babe in Christ) meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Christ calls "many" people to be saints. He does so by giving them the Early Rain. The Early Rain "cometh oft upon it".

This verse below applies to the Early Rain on the "herbs":

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Below is a teaching from Christ that teaches about spiritual blindness as it relates to the Early and Latter Rain concept:

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they brought a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes (Early Rain), and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes (Latter Rain), and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Below is another teaching from Christ that teaches when a believer comes out from being condemned by the Law. It also uses the Early and Latter Rain concept:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground (Early Rain), as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground (Latter Rain). 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Here is a short one:
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken (Early Rain): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (Latter Rain).

The concept taught by the Early and Latter Rains analogy is at the core of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). It is not understood by apostate babes and is purposefully hidden from their understanding. Why? So that the babes who can only draw milk will "fall backward, be broken, and snared and taken" by Satan (Isa 28:9-12).

Joe

Those verses don't apply the way you interpret it. No commentary or study bible puts that way, neither did I learn it in Bible college. For instance, Matthew 5:45 means common grace. The God's chosen and the unsaved get the same weather. You didn't pick up those terms of "Latter rain" and "early rain" from a bible study. You got it from somewhere else, not on your own. Where did you learn it from?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Those verses don't apply the way you interpret it. No commentary or study bible puts that way, neither did I learn it in Bible college. For instance, Matthew 5:45 means common grace. The God's chosen and the unsaved get the same weather. You didn't pick up those terms of "Latter rain" and "early rain" from a bible study. You got it from somewhere else, not on your own. Where did you learn it from?

Dear Rockerduck,
I have shown you many, many scriptures but you just can see and receive what they teach. You are like the blind man who sees men walking as trees. I was like that the first 44 years of my life. Everyone has to pass through their own time of blindness and great tribulation. When Christ is ready for you to see, He will return and pour out the Latter Rain upon you. Only then will the scales fall from your eyes and you will see every man clearly. You might think that you are wise enough, or smart enough or educated in the scriptures enough to understand Christ's New Covenant teachings but not so. It is only with the guidance of the Spirit of Truth that true understanding can come to a person.

Christ's New Covenant teachings are purposefully written in a "mystery" so that without the Spirit to guide a person, they cannot understand them.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our (the converted Elect) glory:

It was only after I received the Latter Rain and the scales fell from my eyes that the concept taught by the Early and Latter Rains open up to my understanding. I know other believers who have received the same truth after they were converted, too, but I did not learn it from them. I learned it from scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

This is how I learned:

Prov 2:1 My son (the converted Elect), if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Psa 104:27 These (Elect babes) wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat (truth) in due season (time of the Latter Rain).

There is nothing I can do to help you understand. You must wait on the Lord to act in your life just as I had to do. There is no other way. And the Lord is faithful & true and He will not fail you or anyone else.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

[Rockerduck]

Stop using term "latter rain". I'm exposing the lie. You did not come up with the term; you learned it. Period. It is not stated in any bible. No need to post reams of scripture as we all can read the bible for ourselves. You aren't convincing anyone but your lack of knowledge. I say this out of love for all the readers here. You had to learn it from someplace else.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Stop using term "latter rain". I'm exposing the lie. You did not come up with the term; you learned it. Period. It is not stated in any bible. No need to post reams of scripture as we all can read the bible for ourselves. You aren't convincing anyone but your lack of knowledge. I say this out of love for all the readers here. You had to learn it from someplace else.

Dear Rockerduck,
Scripture contradicts your comments:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the EARLY RAIN Rain in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the Rain, the EARLY RAIN and the LATTER RAIN in the first month.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the Rain, as the LATTER AND EARLY RAIN unto the earth.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there hath been no LATTER RAIN; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Joe

 

[Rockerduck]

Dear Rockerduck,
Scripture contradicts your comments:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the EARLY RAIN Rain in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the Rain, the EARLY RAIN and the LATTER RAIN in the first month.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the Rain, as the LATTER AND EARLY RAIN unto the earth.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there hath been no LATTER RAIN; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Joe

You still won't say where you learned this. It is the Latter rain movement. I rest my case. A farmer waits for the rain for his crops in James 5:7.

James 5:7- NLT - Dear brothers and sisters,] be patient as you wait for the Lord’s return. Consider the farmers who patiently wait for the rains in the fall and in the spring. They eagerly look for the valuable harvest to ripen.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You still won't say where you learned this. It is the Latter rain movement. I rest my case. A farmer waits for the rain for his crops in James 5:7.

James 5:7- NLT - Dear brothers and sisters,] be patient as you wait for the Lord’s return. Consider the farmers who patiently wait for the rains in the fall and in the spring. They eagerly look for the valuable harvest to ripen.

Dear Rockerduck,
Why is it inconceivable for you to believe that I learned the Early and Latter Rain concept from scripture?

What I teach is nothing like what the Pentecostal denomination teaches. The Latter Rain movement comes from what this scripture below teaches about apostate believers who have the indwelling spirit of anti-Christ.

2Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Don't think that I am picking only on the Pentecostal denomination because I'm not. All the other denominations in the world who claim to be Christian are just as apostate as the Pentecostal denomination. Satan's deceptions are so powerful that none of the sheep have been spared.

I can see that this discussion is not going to be beneficial to you so it's a good time to end it. This will be my last post to you (as the Lord wills).

Joe

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Stop using term "latter rain". I'm exposing the lie. You did not come up with the term; you learned it. Period. It is not stated in any bible. No need to post reams of scripture as we all can read the bible for ourselves. You aren't convincing anyone but your lack of knowledge. I say this out of love for all the readers here. You had to learn it from someplace else.

"Latter rain" is in the scriptures in a number of places. The problem is that the hyper-pseudo-charismatic-spiritualists love to harangue and beat over the head all those who are ignorant enough to allow that metaphor to actually hurt them. It's like a badge of honor to the pseudo-spiritualists that they can parade around trying to impress the less informed who don't know their Bibles. The pseudo-spiritualists even look down their noses at others, claiming to have once been as the alleged ignorant masses, having "arrived" at a place of far greater stature, but in reality trumpeting all their nonsense from a deep ditch fomr which they are unable to climb out from. My but what pride they exude, as if they were adorned as Satan with all those glimmering and shiny jewels. Their pride is their downfall. We're all simple followers of Christ by faith in Him, not our own megaphone blasts filled with cliche' rhetoric.

Deuteronomy 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. (Some use this as allegory, others see it as literal rain.)

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain. (Comparative speech pattern, an allegory.)

Proverbs 16:15 In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain. (Spoken to Israel.)

Jeremiah 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed. (Spoken to Israel.)

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. (Spoken to Israel.)

Zechariah 10:1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. (Spoken to Israel.)

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. (This was written to Israel, not to Gentiles.)

BTW

 

[bro.tan]

No. I disagree.

I have said that following the other Laws is good to do, such as placing a barrier around the edges of one's roof and so many other items that nobody today ever looks at with a desire to obey, including the garments of only one type material. The good of it is in the pleasure one may experience through it, but to say to others that they should do the same...no.

These discussions from those who are in favor of following even just portions of the Mosaic Law, excluding the sacrificial and priestly stuff, they never talk about the absurdity undergirding their propositions along this line, for there are many. Paul made it clear that if one is going to practice adherence to the Law as anything but a personal preference for conduct in their own lives, they are guilty of ALL the Law and under its bondage and condemnation due to having broken just one little point of it...perhaps by not knowing of it or choosing to not consider it valid for adherence. The Law is a trap to those who try to follow it with a mind full of ignorance and incomprehension of the fact that the Law is not some sort of play-thing. It's a deadly force that is still VERY valid today as the source of indictment against all unbelievers because of their sins still being upon themselves rather than Christ should they die in that state.

So, if I were you, I'd be very careful about juggling with glee the Law. It's serious and deadly, like trying to juggle vials of nitroglycerin that's always on the edge of stability for jostling about. I love and respect the Mosaic Law, warning others to handle it carefully and with the greatest of reverence, but to not fear it since it's power, with our being in Christ, no longer holds sway over us. The danger rests when one makes that Law into something that doesn't apply to us today.

Why?

Simply stated, the Law Giver is the One Who dwells within us, working His perfect, superior and relevant-to-us Law through us that is greater than that written by Moses. Paul spoke about the weaknesses and inferiority of the Law of Moses in relation to that which is within us now. Looking unto the Lord for His perfect Work through us is what our focus should be, not on the external that is written in the ordinances of code for conduct delivered ONLY to Israel, never to any Gentile nation, for it was by that code that Israel was set apart from those other nations and peoples, and to whom the Gentiles had to join with in order to be saved. That too goes from hardly ever to never discussed by the false teaching "pastors" behind pulpits.

So, quote away, my friend, but you will only convey that which is inferior except that it come from He Who is within as it applies to your life and what He wishes to work through you. None of the scriptures are false, but Paul pointed out that there is a measure of inferiority and superiority because of to whom each dispensation applies. If you can't differentiate that, then I would encourage you to study more deeply, because you need it. We all have needs, so that's not saying that you are less than anyone else. I'm just pointing out that your lack of mention for that which is superior, that speaks loud volumes to the lack in your presentation and focus.

BTW

Again I see that you like to do a lot of talking instead of referencing anything according to the Bible, using verses and Scriptures. That's the only way that you can get clean clear understanding of the Word of God is using the Bible. In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1 John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

There are those who believe that because Christ overcame sin and kept the law that now we don't have to keep God's laws. But what do the Scriptures tell us? Here's what Jesus said:

(Mat.5:17-19) (v.17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (v.18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (v.19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to fulfill, to fill to the full (Gk. plereo). He fulfilled many prophecies - but not all. There are many in the Book of Revelation still to be fulfilled. There is still some in the Old Testament that hasn’t been fulfilled. Jesus at His first coming came to fulfilled that which was written for Him to fulfill at His first coming. He has NOT fulfilled everything that was written for Him to do. And He kept all of the Law that he could - but that was not all! He was not a Temple priest. He was not a woman. He could not keep the laws intended only for priests and women. No matter how you think about Jesus, there is still much to be fulfilled! So not even the smallest part has yet passed from God's Law! Jesus made it quite clear that anyone who would break even the least commandment and teach people to do so would be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Behold]

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also

Salvation is not based on what you do........Its only based on what Jesus has accomplished on The Cross, as HE is Salvation.

"I am THE WAY to the Father"..

That is not something you can "work" to achieve.... And in fact, if a person is trying to work to be saved, then you can stop now, as its cant be done.